Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[CG Didymus]

The claim is easy to make but hard to prove. False messengers have nothing to back up their claims.

I personally think that Joseph Smith didn't find any Golden Plates and just made up the Book of Mormon. Yet, millions believe it. There must be something there that backs it up. Same thing with the Ahmadiyya. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad must have something to back up his claims or why would millions believe him.

That is evidence that men change and corrupt religions over time.

Yes, making the beliefs of that religion now false. So, any religious group that claims Jesus is God is teaching and spreading a false claim, yet people believe it. Conclusion? Flimsy evidence or an interpretation that is false can fool people into believing it to be true.

Do Baha'is have solid evidence that their claims and interpretation are true? Like a claim that God is real?

 

[Sheldon]

9-10ths_Penguin said: ↑
Good for them. Empirical evidence for the existence of a person is not empirical evidence for the existence of a god.

It certainly is evidence, if the person represents God.

Another vapid tautology using another circular reasoning fallacy. You're assuming your conclusion on the premise again.

 

[Trailblazer]

Ummm...question

Since the Bible mention those people they may or may not be real, but when Baha'i'ullah mention them, they suddenly become real

Everything in the Bible is not historical fact so what is written about characters in the Bible may or may not be true, but from a Baha'i perspective everything that Baha'u'llah wrote about the Prophets/Messengers in the Bible is true.

 

[Sheldon]

everything that Baha'u'llah wrote about the Prophets/Messengers in the Bible is true.

I know I'm going to regret this, but can you demonstrate any objective evidence for this CLAIM? Please, no sophistry, or word games using semantics, it was demonstrably a claim.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Everything in the Bible is not historical fact so what is written about characters in the Bible may or may not be true, but from a Baha'i perspective everything that Baha'u'llah wrote about the Prophets/Messengers in the Bible is true.

What if it is written from different level of understanding of the same occurance? Does one have to be true and the other false?

 

[Trailblazer]

I personally think that Joseph Smith didn't find any Golden Plates and just made up the Book of Mormon. Yet, millions believe it. There must be something there that backs it up. Same thing with the Ahmadiyya. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad must have something to back up his claims or why would millions believe him.

It does not matter how many millions of people believe it, that does not mean it is true.

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so." Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia

The converse of this is that if many or most people do not believe it, it cannot be so, and that is fallacious.

Yes, making the beliefs of that religion now false. So, any religious group that claims Jesus is God is teaching and spreading a false claim, yet people believe it. Conclusion? Flimsy evidence or an interpretation that is false can fool people into believing it to be true.

Of course bad interpretations can fool people but most people believe Jesus is God because they were raised to believe that, and they do not even bother to look at what the Bible says in that regard, as Jesus never claimed to be God and any careful look at the NT shows that Jesus and God are not the same entity.

Do Baha'is have solid evidence that their claims and interpretation are true? Like a claim that God is real?

You know what the evidence is for Baha'u'llah. If Baha'u'llah was who He claimed to be then God is real. That is what we have.

 

[Trailblazer]

I know I'm going to regret this, but can you demonstrate any objective evidence for this CLAIM? Please, no sophistry, or word games using semantics, it was demonstrably a claim.

It is not a claim, it is a belief. Claims can be proven, beliefs cannot be proven, thus there is no objective evidence.

 

[Trailblazer]

What if it is written from different level of understanding of the same occurance? Does one have to be true and the other false?

No, they can both be true. I was not saying that the Bible is not true but it was written for people living in a past age and people living in that age had a different level of understanding than people living now.

 

[Spirit of Light]

No, they can both be true. I was not saying that the Bible is not true but it was written for people living in a past age and people living in that age had a different level of understanding than people living now.

How has Baha'i'ullah gotten it right if they at 2000 years ago didnt? They was 2000 years closer to the people mention in the Bible. Closer to the source so to speak.

Or do you say the Bible has been challenged?

 

[Sheldon]

It is not a claim, it is a belief.

It certainly was a claim, and that doesn't stop it being a belief, why you persist with this dishonest errant nonsense is baffling. This was your claim:

everything that Baha'u'llah wrote about the Prophets/Messengers in the Bible is true.

That is demonstrably a claim. Do you think an unevidenced belief will go unchallenged anymore than an unevidenced claim?

Why you think you can hide behind word games, and sophistry is unclear, but it is never going to pass muster.

Claims can be proven, beliefs cannot be proven, thus there is no objective evidence.

Claim
verb

1. state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.


Of course a belief can be evidenced conclusively, what an asinine claim. I believe the world is not flat, are you seriously saying that can't be objectively evidenced?

 

[Trailblazer]

How has Baha'i'ullah gotten it right if they at 2000 years ago didnt? They was 2000 years closer to the people mention in the Bible. Closer to the source so to speak.

Or do you say the Bible has been challenged?

The way I see it, the Bible as written by fallible men so it is not inerrant whereas Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God who received communication from God so whatever He wrote was inerrant. Also, as Messenger of God, Baha'u'llah had innate knowledge, just like all the Messengers.

How can we ever know that those men who wrote the Bible were close to anyone they wrote about?

 

[Spirit of Light]

The way I see it, the Bible as written by fallible men so it is not inerrant whereas Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God who received communication from God so whatever He wrote was inerrant. Also, as Messenger of God, Baha'u'llah had innate knowledge, just like all the Messengers.

How can we ever know that those men who wrote the Bible were close to anyone they wrote about?

That comes down to belief for the Christians, or if science finds remains that can physically show what the scriptures says

 

[Sheldon]

Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God (unevidenced claim #1) who received communication from God (unevidenced claim #2) so whatever He wrote was inerrant. (unevidenced claim #3) Also, as Messenger of God, Baha'u'llah had innate knowledge (unevidenced claim #4) , just like all the Messengers.(unevidenced claim #5)

Claim
verb

1. state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.

 

[Trailblazer]

I no longer respond to people who continually contradict me and/or speak for me and what my intentions are because I consider that disrespectful, so if anyone is wondering why they are not getting a response they might want to look at their behavior. I am no longer giving them a platform, but they can carry on if it floats their boat.

 

[Trailblazer]

That comes down to belief for the Christians, or if science finds remains that can physically show what the scriptures says

Yes, that is what it comes down to but I doubt any remains will ever be found.

 

[Spirit of Light]

Yes, that is what it comes down to but I doubt any remains will ever be found.

So it stays as a belief

 

[Trailblazer]

So it stays as a belief

As are all our beliefs.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Me: You haven't told me who you think the Jesus mentioned in the Bible is.

Correct, and you haven't told me who you think Dumbledore in the Harry Potter movies is?
...
Do you think a vapid generic insult, that doesn't address anything in the post you're pretending to respond to, is the way to illustrate that others are giving "non answers"?.

I just call a spade, a spade.
You only answer with parrot phrases.
You seem unable to have a decent honest debate about something without mentioning "bare claims" or fallacies.

Oh well.

 

[Sheldon]

I no longer respond to people who continually contradict me and/or speak for me and what my intentions are because I consider that disrespectful, so if anyone is wondering why they are not getting a response they might want to look at their behavior. I am no longer giving them a platform, but they can carry on if it floats their boat.

Debate
verb

1. argue about (a subject), especially in a formal manner.

 

[Sheldon]

I just call a spade, a spade.
You only answer with parrot phrases.
You seem unable to have a decent honest debate about something without mentioning "bare claims" or fallacies.

To be fair you seem unable to participate in a debate without resorting to bare claims or using fallacies, so you're just shooting the messenger.