Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[CG Didymus]

But God did leave evidence and that evidence was the Messengers.

And how do we know that these people were "messengers" or "manifestations" of God? So, I ask...

Trailblazer, how about the false messengers of God? What are they evidence of? That the claim is easy to make?

Lots of people get rejected as being "true" messengers. What is the difference between them and the "true" ones?

The claim is easy to make but hard to prove. False messengers have nothing to back up their claims.

And how solid is the evidence for the "true" messengers? Like Moses? You trust what the Bible says about him?

I personally think that Joseph Smith didn't find any Golden Plates and just made up the Book of Mormon. Yet, millions believe it. There must be something there that backs it up. Same thing with the Ahmadiyya. Mirza Ghulam Ahmad must have something to back up his claims or why would millions believe him.

The Mormon Church has more members than Baha'is. Same with the Ahmadiyyas. I'm not saying that makes them true, I'm saying that there must be some convincing evidence that what they say is true for that many people to believe it.

It does not matter how many millions of people believe it, that does not mean it is true.

Yeah, yeah, that's not the point. I also don't believe they are true. But I also question the validity of your religion.

Of course bad interpretations can fool people but most people believe Jesus is God because they were raised to believe that, and they do not even bother to look at what the Bible says in that regard, as Jesus never claimed to be God and any careful look at the NT shows that Jesus and God are not the same entity.

And that points right to the Baha'i Faith too. Bad, or misleading, or taken out of context verses that make a religion "sound" true to some people.

And Jesus being God is a very good point. Is Trinitarian Christianity a true religion from God? Or... a false religion based on bad interpretations made by people?

Then, if we bother to read the NT and see what it says, to me it clearly says that the tomb was empty... Jesus was not there. So where was he? Supposedly, he appears to his disciples. That's what it says. True or not true? Something that could have easily been faked? Yes. Do Baha'is believe it really happened? No. But how then do Baha'is interpret those verses? Verses from a book they call divinely inspired. They say those verses are "symbolic"... that they're "metaphorical" To me, that's a bad interpretation. There is nothing in those verses that would indicate that the gospel writers had changed from writing down the events as they happened, to suddenly writing in a fictional addition into the story of what happened to Jesus. Question it. Doubt it. But why come up with some out of the blue interpretation that still, essentially, makes the story false?

Yet, with all the "metaphorical", unprovable stories in the Bible and in the NT, Baha'is believe several people in those stories were real and were manifestations of God. No solid proof, just the belief that the characters were real, even though the stories about them had all kinds of fictional embellishments added into the story. Then... why not believe in Joseph Smith and the Golden Plates? Same kind of "evidence".

But then, do made up religious stories have a positive effect on people and get them to be nicer and to obey rules that help people love each other more and get along? Yes they do.

 

[CG Didymus]

To be very honest, personally I have not read enough about Adam i scriptures from Sufism or mainstream Islam to be able to give you a good clear answer.

That means, I have more study in front of me.
And it is good you challenge me to go deeper within in scriptures i know to little about.

It's not terribly important. The main thing is that new religions have to justify their beliefs and claims. The Baha'is have so many. They say that they are the fulfillment of all the promised ones of every religion. Obviously, there is no way to prove that or many of their other claims. But the most important one for me is... has the Promised One already come and gone? And yet, the world is still in chaos.

To me, the Baha'i Faith is so similar to Islam that I think it could very easily be called a "liberal" form of Islam. And to become acceptable on a larger scale a liberal form of Islam... or Christianity... or Judaism might be a good thing. The more fundamental and conservative sides of those religions are going to have difficulties getting along with each other. But a more liberal religion, that accepts all people and all religions, sort of, could get people not to focus on those doctrines and dogmas that divide us and to focus on what unites us.

The Baha'i Faith almost does that, but as we can see, they have their own beliefs that still promote divisions between the other religions. To prove themselves right, they must go against the beliefs in the other religions that contradict their beliefs. The big one being that their prophet is the fulfillment of Kalki, Maitreya, The Messiah, Jesus and all the other Promised Ones. How can such a thing be proven? It seems to all depend on what a person wants to believe. And, like the Atheists keep saying, nothing is objectively true. It's all so very subjective.

Now for you, a Sufi, are those things even all that important? You seem to have that attitude that I would expect Baha'is to have, and by their own teachings, should have, to focus on the things we all have in common and not to focus on the things that divide us.

 

[Spirit of Light]

It's not terribly important. The main thing is that new religions have to justify their beliefs and claims. The Baha'is have so many. They say that they are the fulfillment of all the promised ones of every religion. Obviously, there is no way to prove that or many of their other claims. But the most important one for me is... has the Promised One already come and gone? And yet, the world is still in chaos.

To me, the Baha'i Faith is so similar to Islam that I think it could very easily be called a "liberal" form of Islam. And to become acceptable on a larger scale a liberal form of Islam... or Christianity... or Judaism might be a good thing. The more fundamental and conservative sides of those religions are going to have difficulties getting along with each other. But a more liberal religion, that accepts all people and all religions, sort of, could get people not to focus on those doctrines and dogmas that divide us and to focus on what unites us.

The Baha'i Faith almost does that, but as we can see, they have their own beliefs that still promote divisions between the other religions. To prove themselves right, they must go against the beliefs in the other religions that contradict their beliefs. The big one being that their prophet is the fulfillment of Kalki, Maitreya, The Messiah, Jesus and all the other Promised Ones. How can such a thing be proven? It seems to all depend on what a person wants to believe. And, like the Atheists keep saying, nothing is objectively true. It's all so very subjective.

Now for you, a Sufi, are those things even all that important? You seem to have that attitude that I would expect Baha'is to have, and by their own teachings, should have, to focus on the things we all have in common and not to focus on the things that divide us.

I do not see unity the way Baha'i speak of unity they speak of unity within all humans on earth, the difference for me is that unity with God is different for each practitioner, so unity is between the person and God.

Sufism and Baha'i have been close for many many years, and sufis have even practiced Baha'i and some Baha'i have practiced sufism.

 

[CG Didymus]

She said: "The Bible is not proof that there is a deity, but it is evidence if one believes it is divinely inspired."

What do you think that she means by this?
I think that it is clear that she refers to the fact that some people deny that the Bible contains true narratives inspired by G-d, whilst others accept it.

She is NOT saying:

1. The Bible is divinely inspired by G-d
2. therefore the Bible is evidence of G-d

..that is a distortion of what she is saying.
You merely are distracting the attention away from the main issue..
i.e. What do we know about the narratives in the Bible, from an historical point of view

This is what kicked it all off...

The whole Bible is evidence of a deity.

Several times she was asked for examples of verses in the Bible that she thought were "evidence" of a deity.
Lots of religions believe "in" the Bible. But then they interpret it in a way that fits into their beliefs. Do any of them care what Jews believe about their own Scriptures?

 

[muhammad_isa]

Lots of religions believe "in" the Bible. But then they interpret it in a way that fits into their beliefs. Do any of them care what Jews believe about their own Scriptures?

It doesn't matter.

G-d is the Creator and Maintainer of the universe.
I don't know of any major sect that thinks otherwise.

 

[Trailblazer]

a) Betty and Brenda are sisters.
b) Betty and Brenda live in rented apartments.
c) Therefore all sisters live in rented apartments.

Premise 1: Tb says that c) is true.
Premise 2: To say that c) is true is illogical.
Conclusion: Tb is illogical.

Sorry, that is not my argument so I am not illogical.
Better luck next time.

 

[Trailblazer]

If you don't want quick, terse replies, then stop ignoring and brushing over the in-depth, well-thought-out ones.

I have not seen any in-depth, well-thought-out responses to brush over.

Or better yet: stop posting the irrational nonsense you're consistently called out for.

It is only irrational in the minds of the irrational atheists who call it out.

 

[Sheldon]

Sheldon said: ↑
you have used known logical fallacies relentlessly

No, I have not used any

Oh dear..

They are evidence because of what Baha'u'llah says about them, not because of what the Bible says about them.

Special pleading fallacy...QED

If the premise the Bible is divinely inspired is true, then the conclusion God exists must be true.

Circular reasoning fallacy...QED

God is not a material thing that exists in this world so there can be no observation or measurement.

Begging the question fallacy QED...

there can never be empirical evidence of a Spirit Being.

Special pleading fallacy, QED....

To expect a kind of evidence that can never be procured is unreasonable.

Argument from incredulity fallacy...QED

It certainly is evidence, if the person represents God.

Circular

I said a belief is not an assumption....

I did not say a belief can not be an assumption.

The law of non contradiction

that's just the last three pages, and this is one thread with over 200 pages in it.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I have not seen any in-depth, well-thought-out responses to brush over.

I know you don't see them; that was my point.

 

[Sheldon]

I said a belief is not always a claim.

Claim
verb

1. state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.

Belief
noun

1. an acceptance that something exists or is true, especially one without proof.

-------------------

A belief is only a claim if someone asserts that their belief is true,

Assertion

noun

1. a confident and forceful statement of fact or belief.

 

[Sheldon]

I never said that two words can't mean something similar

So why did you say your assertion of your unevidenced belief, is not an assumption?

Assumption
noun.

1. a thing that is accepted as true or as certain to happen, without proof.

 

[Sheldon]

samtonga43 said: ↑
a) Betty and Brenda are sisters.
b) Betty and Brenda live in rented apartments.
c) Therefore all sisters live in rented apartments.

if the premises are true, the conclusion must be true.

This is only correct if the argument is valid, how many times...dear oh dear...

 

[Sheldon]

G-d is the Creator and Maintainer of the universe.
I don't know of any major sect that thinks otherwise.

Argumentum ad populum fallacy, well done...

 

[Trailblazer]

Lots of people get rejected as being "true" messengers. What is the difference between them and the "true" ones?

The true Messengers are true Messengers and the false Messengers are false.

And how solid is the evidence for the "true" messengers? Like Moses? You trust what the Bible says about him?

I do not need to trust what the Bible says because I trust what Baha'u'llah wrote. Some of what the Bible says might be accurate, I don't know, but it does not matter to me since I do not need the Bible to know about Moses.

The Mormon Church has more members than Baha'is. Same with the Ahmadiyyas. I'm not saying that makes them true, I'm saying that there must be some convincing evidence that what they say is true for that many people to believe it.

Just because 'many people' were convinced that does not mean that those religions are true. To believe that would be to commit the fallacy of ad populum.

Yeah, yeah, that's not the point. I also don't believe they are true. But I also question the validity of your religion.

Don't we both know that, and why would you think that will ever change?

And that points right to the Baha'i Faith too. Bad, or misleading, or taken out of context verses that make a religion "sound" true to some people.

How does that point to the Baha'i Faith? What are the bad, or misleading, or taken out of context verses?

And Jesus being God is a very good point. Is Trinitarian Christianity a true religion from God? Or... a false religion based on bad interpretations made by people?

I would say that Christianity is a true religion from God but Trinitarian Christianity is a made up religion of man.

Yet, with all the "metaphorical", unprovable stories in the Bible and in the NT, Baha'is believe several people in those stories were real and were manifestations of God. No solid proof, just the belief that the characters were real, even though the stories about them had all kinds of fictional embellishments added into the story.

There is no solid proof of anything in religion. That is why it is considered a religious belief and not an established fact. There are facts about religion that are true, such as the person of Baha'u'llah and the history of the Baha'i Faith, but nobody can ever prove He got messages from God, so that is a faith-based belief.

Since I believe that what Baha'u'llah wrote is true, I believe that the Prophets He wrote about were real people.

But then, do made up religious stories have a positive effect on people and get them to be nicer and to obey rules that help people love each other more and get along? Yes they do.

I do not think it is the religious stories that make people nicer, I think it is the teachings of Jesus that say we are supposed to love each other. The stories only serve the purpose of convincing people they are saved and going to heaven.

 

[Sheldon]

samtonga43 said: ↑
a) Betty and Brenda are sisters.
b) Betty and Brenda live in rented apartments.
c) Therefore all sisters live in rented apartments.

Premise 1: Tb says that c) is true.
Premise 2: To say that c) is true is illogical.
Conclusion: Tb is illogical.

Sorry, that is not my argument so I am not illogical.
Better luck next time.

Yeah, see he never claimed that was your argument so you've just used a straw man fallacy. irony #1

His argument demonstrated you were wrong, when you claimed that logically the conclusion must be true if the premises are true, since this is only the case if the argument is valid.




Your argument was not valid, since it was based on a circular reasoning fallacy, where you assumed the conclusion in your premise.

I believe this has been explained already...

 

[Sheldon]

I have not seen any in-depth, well-thought-out responses to brush over.

Yes you have, you just haven't understood it.

 

[Sheldon]

It is only irrational in the minds of the irrational atheists who call it out.

Irony overload, as that is a no true Scotsman fallacy.

The rationality of any idea, claim or belief is not dependant on any belief, or the lack thereof. Your claim is so ridiculous it is embarrassing.

 

[Sheldon]

The true Messengers are true Messengers and the false Messengers are false.

Argument from assertion fallacy.

 

[Sheldon]

There are facts about religion that are true, such as the person of Baha'u'llah and the history of the Baha'i Faith, but nobody can ever prove He got messages from God, so that is a faith-based belief.

So your fact about your religion, is that a person existed?

 

[Sheldon]

Since I believe that what Baha'u'llah wrote is true, I believe that the Prophets He wrote about were real people.

Ciiiirrrcuuularrrrr reasoning fallacy...bad ah bing...