Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Mark Charles Compton]

That is because something that "has not happened yet" cannot be known as far as we are concerned.

Which is the result of us being mortal and finite. As a relativist, I believe our perception of reality and our place within it, is our reality as far as we can ascertain.

Your view of reality is different from mine.

Though you seem to be speaking from the perspective of God, or at least from outside of the inescapable (to a finite mortal) winds of time.

 

[Trailblazer]

I'd say ignore him if he's getting that much of a rise out of you. At least for a few days or week.

It is hard to get a rise out of me. I am as cool as a cucumber.
However, I will not tolerate injustice so I will not allow people to accuse me falsely because that is unjust.

What people say about me and what I allegedly did does not bother me if I know it is not true, and if it is true I want to look at it so I can correct my behavior, so I really cannot lose as long as I look at my own faults and not the faults of other people.

 

[Trailblazer]

I have never seen any rationality from you. Just intellectual dishonest, logical fallacies, and a position that you change on a whim to get out of having to deal with questions you can't answer.

I could say the same thing about you but I am not into criticizing other people. However, I have shown all the logical fallacies you have committed and there are enough of them to sink a ship.

For a year now, I have answered your questions. If there are questions that I cannot answer that is because there are no answers to those questions.

The fact that you do not like my answers or you do not understand my answers is not my fault, but you are blaming me. That is what people do when they cannot accept responsibility for their own shortcomings, they blame other people.

As a representative of the Baha'i faith, you are making all the other Bahai's look bad.

You are blaming me for what you do not like or what you do not understand about that Baha'i Faith. That is called passing the buck.

I am not making the Baha'i Faith look bad, all I have ever done is impart accurate information about the religion.

No other Baha'i would still be talking to you after all this time and all the false accusations I have tolerated. Do you see any other Baha'is talking to you? No, and I know a certain Baha'i who wonders why I am still talking to you, and he has been wondering for a long time.

 

[Trailblazer]

God knowing what I will choose IS the outcome of my choice.

How so?

I wonder if the staff here will share the same view as you. "Trailblazer said it, but that was yesterday, so we can't take that into account."

Well, I have not heard anything from the staff, so.....

The staff here is just so I don't worry about what they decide. If I really did something wrong I always own up to it so I have nothing to worry about.

I have the teachings of Baha'u'llah to live by, so I don't have to rely upon my ego and my emotions.

26: O SON OF BEING! How couldst thou forget thine own faults and busy thyself with the faults of others? Whoso doeth this is accursed of Me. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 10

66: O EMIGRANTS! The tongue I have designed for the mention of Me, defile it not with detraction. If the fire of self overcome you, remember your own faults and not the faults of My creatures, inasmuch as every one of you knoweth his own self better than he knoweth others. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 45

 

[Sheldon]

Your view of reality is different from mine.

Well, it lacks unevidenced archaic superstition for a start.

 

[Sheldon]

How can one believe that reality is correct while also believing that a religious viewpoint that contradicts reality is also correct?

Sounds like cognitive dissonance to me.

<MYSTERY>.....

 

[Sheldon]

something that "has not happened yet" cannot be known

the future is "set in stone"

Oh! your....god!

 

[Tiberius]

I could say the same thing about you but I am not into criticizing other people. However, I have shown all the logical fallacies you have committed and there are enough of them to sink a ship.

And how many times have you posted the definition of a logical fallacy, then I say I never committed it, and you say, "Oh, but I never said you did..."

For a year now, I have answered your questions. If there are questions that I cannot answer that is because there are no answers to those questions.

All of those questions can be answered easily with, "God doesn't exist, religions are make believe."

The fact that you do not like my answers or you do not understand my answers is not my fault, but you are blaming me. That is what people do when they cannot accept responsibility for their own shortcomings, they blame other people.

I do not like your answers because they are based on logical fallacies.

That is not a me problem, it is a you problem because you are the one providing the fallacy-ridden answers.

You are blaming me for what you do not like or what you do not understand about that Baha'i Faith. That is called passing the buck.

Do not confuse disagreement with dislike.

I am not making the Baha'i Faith look bad, all I have ever done is impart accurate information about the religion.

You have also shown what kind of person a typical Baha'i is. And you have shown me that the typical Baha'i is inconsistent and intellectually dishonest.

No other Baha'i would still be talking to you after all this time and all the false accusations I have tolerated. Do you see any other Baha'is talking to you? No, and I know a certain Baha'i who wonders why I am still talking to you, and he has been wondering for a long time.

If you want to stop talking to me, go right ahead.

 

[Tiberius]

How so?

Because "What God knows" and "What I will choose" are the same thing.

This is not a difficult concept.

Well, I have not heard anything from the staff, so.....

The staff here is just so I don't worry about what they decide. If I really did something wrong I always own up to it so I have nothing to worry about.

I have the teachings of Baha'u'llah to live by, so I don't have to rely upon my ego and my emotions.

26: O SON OF BEING! How couldst thou forget thine own faults and busy thyself with the faults of others? Whoso doeth this is accursed of Me. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 10

66: O EMIGRANTS! The tongue I have designed for the mention of Me, defile it not with detraction. If the fire of self overcome you, remember your own faults and not the faults of My creatures, inasmuch as every one of you knoweth his own self better than he knoweth others. The Hidden Words of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 45

Well, it doesn't take too much to figure out that if you repeatedly say, "Tiberius, you position is that God's knowledge of what you will do is what makes you do it," you can't turn around a few days later and claim you never said that.

Have you considered a career in politics?

 

[Trailblazer]

If you want to stop talking to me, go right ahead.

I will stop when I am ready, but meanwhile I will ignore all your false accusations.
You only show what kind of person you are by posting all these personal criticisms of me.
Other people can see it even you can't.

It does not hurt me in any way because I know myself.

 

[Trailblazer]

Because "What God knows" and "What I will choose" are the same thing.

This is not a difficult concept.

You said: God knowing what I will choose IS the outcome of my choice.
I said: How so?
You said: Because "What God knows" and "What I will choose" are the same thing.

They are the same because God knows what you will choose, but so what?
Why are you making the choice?

 

[CG Didymus]

Yes, it is the only rational position. Because to say that a known future and free will coexist is to say that the future is set in stone, but at the same time it can be anything we want it to be.

If we go back to the movie analogy and writer/director, God, is watching a screening and doesn't like how it ends... What does he do? He rewrites it.

I think some of these religions need to believe that God does know the ending and that he tells everybody that things will turn out good in the end... for those that persevere and keep trusting and believing. But how can the ending turn out like God, the writer/director, wants if people can make any choice they want? It sure seems like God would make sure that people stick to the script. But, if that's true, what a horrible movie. Like what's happening in Ukraine... God, "Okay in this scene I want this Russian soldier to fire a missile. It's going to land in the parking lot of a maternity hospital. Okay, action." Russian soldier, "I'm not going to do that." God, "Who's horror movie is this? Mine or yours. Just do as you're told and follow the script."

I sincerely hope that there is no such God like that. That knows what he wants... Knows what is going to happen... And put everything in place to make it happen.

 

[CG Didymus]

You have also shown what kind of person a typical Baha'i is. And you have shown me that the typical Baha'i is inconsistent and intellectually dishonest.

When I was involved with the Baha'i Faith there were lots of easy going, peace loving people that became Baha'is. I do believe they became even better people because of the Baha'i Faith... except for one thing... They must believe it is the truth, and they must go and "teach" others about this new and "wonderful" truth that they've found.

As we can all see, it creates a situation where the person thinks, that no matter what their religion teaches, that is what is correct. Maybe they used to be open-minded but not anymore. And, as we can see, they feel the same way about people that have opposing beliefs. Those people are the stubborn ones. Those people are the ones that are blind. It happens to good people that have become Christian, probably to Muslims, and to those that joined the Baha'i Faith. They all believe they have seen the light. We see it more like they've let themselves get brain washed.

And that's the people I think were pretty good going in. Then there are the others... The ones that take their beliefs to the extreme. And those that get into positions of power within their religion. But are the opposite of what their religion is supposed to be. And all of them talk about love, being humble, being respectful, compassionate and all that stuff. You met any religious person like that? I'm sure there's a few. But not many.

 

[Tiberius]

You said: God knowing what I will choose IS the outcome of my choice.
I said: How so?
You said: Because "What God knows" and "What I will choose" are the same thing.

They are the same because God knows what you will choose, but so what?
Why are you making the choice?

That's my point. It is NOT a choice.

And this is something else I have mentioned before.

 

[Trailblazer]

That's my point. It is NOT a choice.

And this is something else I have mentioned before.

You said: Because "What God knows" and "What I will choose" are the same thing.

You said "What I will choose" so how can it NOT be a choice?
If you choose it how can it NOT be a choice?

 

[Tiberius]

You said: Because "What God knows" and "What I will choose" are the same thing.

You said "What I will choose" so how can it NOT be a choice?
If you choose it how can it NOT be a choice?

Of all the hills to die on, you choose wordplay?

Anyone who has been paying attention to the discussion would have seen that I was following the hypothetical that YOU set out, in which free will does exist alongside predeterminism.

 

[Trailblazer]

Of all the hills to die on, you choose wordplay?

There was no wordplay, just words that made up a simple question.
Why can't you answer my simple question?

You said "What I will choose" so how can it NOT be a choice?
If you choose it how can it NOT be a choice?

Anyone who has been paying attention to the discussion would have seen that I was following the hypothetical that YOU set out, in which free will does exist alongside predeterminism.

Free will would not exist if everything was predetermined but I never said that everything was predetermined.
God's perfect foreknowledge has nothing to do with predetermination.
God's perfect foreknowledge coexists with human free will. There is no contradiction.

 

[Tiberius]

There was no wordplay, just words that made up a simple question.

It's wordplay because you are too worried about the specific word I used rather than taking the point I clearly am making.

Why can't you answer my simple question?

You said "What I will choose" so how can it NOT be a choice?
If you choose it how can it NOT be a choice?

I DID ANSWER IT.

I said, "Anyone who has been paying attention to the discussion would have seen that I was following the hypothetical that YOU set out, in which free will does exist alongside predeterminism." This is because my entire position so far has been that it's not a choice. I've even directly stated this many times.

Here's a list of posts where I said specifically the words "It's not a choice" if God knows what we are going to do.

• "It is still something with a possibility of zero. And that means it's not a choice." Post 2868.
• "It's not a choice." Post 2986.
• "If it's a choice then there needs to be more than one option, and each option needs to have some non-zero probability. So it's not a choice." Post 2991.
• "If God knows, then the number of outcomes is reduced to 1. If there is only one outcome, then it's not a choice." Post 3037.
• "If something is a choice, then there must be more than one possible outcome. If God knows ahead of time, then there is only one possible outcome. Therefore it is not a choice." Post 3038.
• "If, from his point of view, it's already happened, then there is only one possible outcome. If there's only one possible outcome, then it's not a choice." Post 3040.
• "If there's only one possible outcome, then it's not a choice." Post 3041.
• "And if I can't do anything different, then it's not a choice, is it?" Post 3056.
• "Again, IT'S NOT A CHOICE. If the actions that a person will take are known ahead of time, then the person in question does not choose to do them." Post 3272.
• "IF THERE'S ONLY ONE OPTION, THEN IT'S NOT A CHOICE." Post 3277.This one was even in big, bold, underlined letters, so not sure how you missed that one.
• "That's my point. It is NOT a choice." Post 6054. Please note that this one was less than four hours ago, and it was in direct response to you asking, "Why are you making the choice?"

And then there's the time when YOU said that it wasn't a choice:

"You have no choice but to do what the deity has foreseen but you do not know what the deity has foreseen." Post 3423

So don't tell me I haven't answered that simple question. Because by my count, I answered it at least ELEVEN times, and that's JUST the times I specifically said, "It's not a choice." It's not counting the times I said other phrases like, "I have no choice," (post 3601), "I don't have a choice," (post 3414), "I do not have a choice," (post 3082), and "we can not have free choice," (post 5838)

Free will would not exist if everything was predetermined but I never said that everything was predetermined.
God's perfect foreknowledge has nothing to do with predetermination.
God's perfect foreknowledge coexists with human free will. There is no contradiction.

If some things are predetermined, then EVERYTHING must be predetermined, since something we can freely choose could render a predetermined event impossible.

I believe I have already gone over this with you as well, I do hope that you won't make me go over the same thing again.

And didn't you say you weren't going to talk to me anymore?

 

[Trailblazer]

I DID ANSWER IT.

I said, "Anyone who has been paying attention to the discussion would have seen that I was following the hypothetical that YOU set out, in which free will does exist alongside predeterminism." This is because my entire position so far has been that it's not a choice. I've even directly stated this many times.

Here's a list of posts where I said specifically the words "It's not a choice" if God knows what we are going to do.

· "It is still something with a possibility of zero. And that means it's not a choice." Post 2868.

· "It's not a choice." Post 2986.

· "If it's a choice then there needs to be more than one option, and each option needs to have some non-zero probability. So it's not a choice." Post 2991.

· "If God knows, then the number of outcomes is reduced to 1. If there is only one outcome, then it's not a choice." Post 3037.

· "If something is a choice, then there must be more than one possible outcome. If God knows ahead of time, then there is only one possible outcome. Therefore it is not a choice." Post 3038.

· "If, from his point of view, it's already happened, then there is only one possible outcome. If there's only one possible outcome, then it's not a choice." Post 3040.

· "If there's only one possible outcome, then it's not a choice." Post 3041.

· "And if I can't do anything different, then it's not a choice, is it?" Post 3056.

· "Again, IT'S NOT A CHOICE. If the actions that a person will take are known ahead of time, then the person in question does not choose to do them." Post 3272.

· "IF THERE'S ONLY ONE OPTION, THEN IT'S NOT A CHOICE." Post 3277.This one was even in big, bold, underlined letters, so not sure how you missed that one.

· "That's my point. It is NOT a choice." Post 6054. Please note that this one was less than four hours ago, and it was in direct response to you asking, "Why are you making the choice?"

Okay, you said it is not a choice, but you cannot explain WHY it is not a choice, and that’s the problem.

"Again, IT'S NOT A CHOICE. If the actions that a person will take are known ahead of time, then the person in question does not choose to do them." Post 3272.

Why is it not a choice if God knows the actions you will take ahead of time?

"If something is a choice, then there must be more than one possible outcome. If God knows ahead of time, then there is only one possible outcome. Therefore it is not a choice." Post 3038.

Why is there only one possible outcome if God knows ahead of time?

You will do what God knows you will do but that does not mean you cannot choose from several options.
Whatever option you choose will be what God has always known you would choose.

And then there's the time when YOU said that it wasn't a choice:

"You have no choice but to do what the deity has foreseen but you do not know what the deity has foreseen." Post 3423

What I meant by that is that you will choose to do what the deity has foreseen, NOT that you had no choice to do otherwise. Had you chosen to do otherwise, THAT choice would have been the choice that the deity had foreseen.

You will do what God has foreseen but you will NOT do what God has foreseen because God foresaw it.
You will do it because you chose to do it, from all the available options that you could have chosen.

If I have said this once I have said it a dozen times.

So don't tell me I haven't answered that simple question. Because by my count, I answered it at least ELEVEN times, and that's JUST the times I specifically said, "It's not a choice." It's not counting the times I said other phrases like, "I have no choice," (post 3601), "I don't have a choice," (post 3414), "I do not have a choice," (post 3082), and "we can not have free choice," (post 5838)

I never said that you did not answer the question BEFORE.

If some things are predetermined, then EVERYTHING must be predetermined, since something we can freely choose could render a predetermined event impossible.

No, because if something is predetermined it is predetermined by God, and in that case it is not subject to human free will. We cannot choose from different options if something was predetermined by God. We have to do what God has predetermined, whatever that is.

I believe I have already gone over this with you as well, I do hope that you won't make me go over the same thing again.

And didn't you say you weren't going to talk to me anymore?

Trailblazer said: I don't know what you were doing, but whatever it was I suggest you go back to doing it because I am not going to do this anymore. I do not have to put up with your personal criticisms.

I did not say I will not talk to you anymore. I will respond as long as you can stick to the subject at hand and refrain from personal criticisms.

 

[Tiberius]

Okay, you said it is not a choice, but you cannot explain WHY it is not a choice, and that’s the problem.

No, that's not what you've been asking me.

You've been asking me what it is that forces me to do the things God has foreseen if it isn't God's foreknowledge that is making me do it.

I have told you many times why it's not a choice. It's not a choice because I must do what God has foreseen I will do. There is literally only one thing I can do - that which God has foreseen I will do.

Why is it not a choice if God knows the actions you will take ahead of time?

Why is there only one possible outcome if God knows ahead of time?

Because I can't do anything EXCEPT what God knows I will do.

You will do what God knows you will do but that does not mean you cannot choose from several options.
Whatever option you choose will be what God has always known you would choose.

No I can't.

Once God knows what I will do, I am locked into that course of action. I can not avoid it no matter what.

What I meant by that is that you will choose to do what the deity has foreseen, NOT that you had no choice to do otherwise. Had you chosen to do otherwise, THAT choice would have been the choice that the deity had foreseen.

You will do what God has foreseen but you will NOT do what God has foreseen because God foresaw it.
You will do it because you chose to do it, from all the available options that you could have chosen.

If I have said this once I have said it a dozen times.

Same thing. Once God knows what I will do, I am locked into that course of action. I can not avoid it no matter what.

I never said that you did not answer the question BEFORE.

Again, you lie.

You said I had not answered the question in your post 6057 where you asked, "Why can't you answer my simple question?"

No, because if something is predetermined it is predetermined by God, and in that case it is not subject to human free will. We cannot choose from different options if something was predetermined by God. We have to do what God has predetermined, whatever that is.

It seems I WILL have to explain this to you again...

If God has foreseen that I will meet the woman I will marry tonight when I go to buy groceries, I do NOT have the free choice to stay in and order a pizza. And last week, I did NOT have the free choice to make plans to go to the nightclub with my buddies tonight. The guy who lives in the next suburb does NOT have the free choice to drive his car while drunk in a way that would hit and kill me before I get to the supermarket. The police officers do NOT have the free choice to pull me over for a random breath test that would delay my arrival until after the woman has gone. I can keep going with this all night and come up with a pretty much infinite list of things that could NOT happen because they would prevent the event that God had predetermined. That means that God must have predetermined that each item in this infinite list of events that would ruin me meeting the woman must ALSO have been predetermined to not happen. And then all the things that could have caused any of those events to happen must have been predetermined to not happen, and so on backwards and backwards until God needs to predetermine every single little thing throughout the entire history of the universe.

Trailblazer said: I don't know what you were doing, but whatever it was I suggest you go back to doing it because I am not going to do this anymore. I do not have to put up with your personal criticisms.

I did not say I will not talk to you anymore. I will respond as long as you can stick to the subject at hand and refrain from personal criticisms.

Yeah, you pretty much did. You literally told me to go back to doing what it was that I was doing before I started talking to you, because you didn't like me calling you out for lying.

Some advice. If you don't want me to call you out for lying, then don't tell lies. Simple as that.