Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Trailblazer]

Yeah, you pretty much did. You literally told me to go back to doing what it was that I was doing before I started talking to you, because you didn't like me calling you out for lying.

That is not what I said.

Trailblazer said: I don't know what you were doing, but whatever it was I suggest you go back to doing it because I am not going to do this anymore. I do not have to put up with your personal criticisms.

Some advice. If you don't want me to call you out for lying, then don't tell lies. Simple as that.

What are the two meanings of lie?

1 : to make an untrue statement with intent to deceive She was lying when she said she didn't break the vase. He lied about his past experience. 2 : to create a false or misleading impression Statistics sometimes lie.
Lie Definition & Meaning - Merriam-Webster
I never lie. NEVER, EVER.
I know my own intent. You do not know my intent.

 

[Trailblazer]

No, that's not what you've been asking me.

You've been asking me what it is that forces me to do the things God has foreseen if it isn't God's foreknowledge that is making me do it.

I have told you many times why it's not a choice. It's not a choice because I must do what God has foreseen I will do. There is literally only one thing I can do - that which God has foreseen I will do.

If you must do what God has foreseen you will do what is making you do it, if not God’s foreknowledge?
Yet you have denied that God’s foreknowledge is making you do it.

@Trailblazer , since you gave this post a like, can I assume you are going to drop your cries of "God's foreknowledge doesn't force you to make a choice" argument? Because I've told you many times that I have not claimed that God's foreknowledge does so.

Trailblazer said:
Why is it not a choice if God knows the actions you will take ahead of time?
Why is there only one possible outcome if God knows ahead of time?

Because I can't do anything EXCEPT what God knows I will do.

I know that you will do what God knows you will do, but why couldn’t you choose what God knew you would choose from all the available options?

Trailblazer said:
You will do what God knows you will do but that does not mean you cannot choose from several options.
Whatever option you choose will be what God has always known you would choose.

No I can't.

Once God knows what I will do, I am locked into that course of action. I can not avoid it no matter what.

God has always known what you will choose to do but it was never locked in until you chose to do it. God has always known when and why you would choose it from all the available options because God is all-knowing.

Same thing. Once God knows what I will do, I am locked into that course of action. I can not avoid it no matter what.

God has always known what you would do but what God knows is COMPLETELY SEPARATE from want you choose to do in this material realm of existence. What God knows has no bearing upon what you choose to do.

Again, you lie.

You said I had not answered the question in your post 6057 where you asked, "Why can't you answer my simple question?"

No, I did not say you had not answered my question BEFORE.
I said "Why can't you answer my simple question?"

It seems I WILL have to explain this to you again...

If God has foreseen that I will meet the woman I will marry tonight when I go to buy groceries, I do NOT have the free choice to stay in and order a pizza.

Remember what you said, that God's foreknowledge doesn't force you to make a choice.

@Trailblazer , since you gave this post a like, can I assume you are going to drop your cries of "God's foreknowledge doesn't force you to make a choice" argument? Because I've told you many times that I have not claimed that God's foreknowledge does so. #514 Tiberius

And last week, I did NOT have the free choice to make plans to go to the nightclub with my buddies tonight. The guy who lives in the next suburb does NOT have the free choice to drive his car while drunk in a way that would hit and kill me before I get to the supermarket. The police officers do NOT have the free choice to pull me over for a random breath test that would delay my arrival until after the woman has gone. I can keep going with this all night and come up with a pretty much infinite list of things that could NOT happen because they would prevent the event that God had predetermined. That means that God must have predetermined that each item in this infinite list of events that would ruin me meeting the woman must ALSO have been predetermined to not happen. And then all the things that could have caused any of those events to happen must have been predetermined to not happen, and so on backwards and backwards until God needs to predetermine every single little thing throughout the entire history of the universe.

No, God did not PREDETERMINE anything you would do, God only KNEW what you would do, but God’s foreknowledge does not determine what you choose. You made all those choices with your own free will.

If God predestined something for you that would be your fate but God has not predestined everything that happens to humans. Most of what happens to us is freely chosen.

 

[muhammad_isa]

No, God did not PREDETERMINE anything you would do, God only KNEW what you would do.

That is what I believe too.
Many others cannot see how that can happen. They don't believe that God can know because as far as humans perceive, it hasn't happened yet.
..and that is that.

 

[Sheldon]

God has always known what you will choose to do but it was never locked in until you chose to do it.

Are you saying god doesn't know which specific choice we will ultimately make, because that is not what muhammed isa has claimed here.

If it does as muhammed isa claims, then he also claims we cannot deviate from that choice and make the deity wrong.

He has also said unequivocally that the future is "set in stone". Which of course would negate any notion of free will.

 

[muhammad_isa]

He has also said unequivocally that the future is "set in stone". Which of course would negate any notion of free will.

That is only your opinion.

The future is set by our choices .. it is "set in stone" in exactly the same way that the past is.

 

[Sheldon]

He has also said unequivocally that the future is "set in stone". Which of course would negate any notion of free will.

That is only your opinion.

No it really isn't, unless you don't understand what "set in stone means". The phrase means something is fixed and unchangeable.

The future is set by our choices .. it is "set in stone" in exactly the same way that the past is.

So fixed and unchangeable then. Hence we don't have any free will over past events. or future ones according to what you believe.

“The Moving Finger writes; and, having writ,
Moves on: nor all thy Piety nor Wit
Shall lure it back to cancel half a Line,
Nor all thy Tears wash out a Word of it.”
― Omar Khayyám

 

[Trailblazer]

No it really isn't, unless you don't understand what "set in stone means". The phrase means something is fixed and unchangeable.

The future is set by our choices .. it is "set in stone" in exactly the same way that the past is.

So fixed and unchangeable then. Hence we don't have any free will over past events. or future ones according to what you believe.

Regarding "set in stone" and "fixed and unchangeable" I think that what @muhammad_isa was saying is that the future became set in stone once we made a choice, because we could not undo the choice that we made and the results of that choice.

For example, let's say a man decided to kill his wife. Once he made that choice and killed his wife he could not undo that act so it is set in stone. The choice to commit the murder was a choice the man made made with free will.

Obviously, the past is set in stone because we cannot change what has already happened in the past. For example, if a man murdered his wife two years ago that act has already been committed and he cannot undo that act. The choice to commit the murder was a choice the man made made with free will.

 

[Trailblazer]

Trailblazer said: God has always known what you will choose to do but it was never locked in until you chose to do it.

Are you saying god doesn't know which specific choice we will ultimately make, because that is not what muhammed isa has claimed here.

If it does as muhammed isa claims, then he also claims we cannot deviate from that choice and make the deity wrong.

He has also said unequivocally that the future is "set in stone". Which of course would negate any notion of free will.

No, I am not saying that God does not know what choice we will ultimately make. God is all-knowing so Gods perfect knowledge surrounds the realities of all things, before as well as after their existence in this world. That means God has foreknowledge of every choice that we will ever make.

We will make the choice that the deity knows we will make, but that is only because the deity knows the choice we will make. It is not the deity's foreknowledge that causes us to make a choice, it is our free will that causes us to make a choice.

Moreover, there is not only one choice we could have made. We could have chosen A, B, C, or D, and whatever choice we made would have been the choice that the deity has always known we would make.

What was going to happen in the future is set in stone only when a choice is made in the present.
It is set in stone because we cannot undo the choices we make and the results of our choices once we make the choice and act upon the choice.

If I chose to (A) drive drunk instead of (B) finding a designated driver, and I caused a fatal car crash, killing a whole family, I made a choice between A and B. Once I made that choice I could not undo the result of that choice.

The deity had always known which choice I would make because the deity has perfect foreknowledge, but the deity's foreknowledge did not cause me to choose A.

Question.—If God has knowledge of an action which will be performed by someone, and it has been written on the Tablet of Fate, is it possible to resist it?

Answer.—The foreknowledge of a thing is not the cause of its realization; for the essential knowledge of God surrounds, in the same way, the realities of things, before as well as after their existence, and it does not become the cause of their existence. It is a perfection of God.......

Therefore, the knowledge of God in the realm of contingency does not produce the forms of the things. On the contrary, it is purified from the past, present and future. It is identical with the reality of the things; it is not the cause of their occurrence........

The mathematicians by astronomical calculations know that at a certain time an eclipse of the moon or the sun will occur. Surely this discovery does not cause the eclipse to take place. This is, of course, only an analogy and not an exact image.”
Some Answered Questions, pp. 138-139

 

[night912]

No, I am not saying that God does not know what choice we will ultimately make. God is all-knowing so Gods perfect knowledge surrounds the realities of all things, before as well as after their existence in this world. That means God has foreknowledge of every choice that we will ever make.

We will make the choice that the deity knows we will make, but that is only because the deity knows the choice we will make. It is not the deity's foreknowledge that causes us to make a choice, it is our free will that causes us to make a choice.

Moreover, there is not only one choice we could have made. We could have chosen A, B, C, or D, and whatever choice we made would have been the choice that the deity has always known we would make.

What was going to happen in the future is set in stone only when a choice is made in the present.
It is set in stone because we cannot undo the choices we make and the results of our choices once we make the choice and act upon the choice.

If I chose to (A) drive drunk instead of (B) finding a designated driver, and I caused a fatal car crash, killing a whole family, I made a choice between A and B. Once I made that choice I could not undo the result of that choice.

The deity had always known which choice I would make because the deity has perfect foreknowledge, but the deity's foreknowledge did not cause me to choose A.

So according to your reasoning, there is no free will because there was never a possible alternate choice for you to choose from. It's equalivolent to you choosing the "option" to fly by natural means or to walk to work. Since it's impossible for you to fly naturally, therefore your only option is to walk. And before you even make the excuse that it's logically/physically impossible for you to fly naturally, keep in mind that it's also logically/physically impossible for you to do something other than that which God has already foreseen.

What was going to happen in the future is set in stone only when a choice is made in the present.

This means that in the present, God did not and cannot have foreknowledge of the choice that you are going to make in the future because the event of you making that choice in the future is not set in stone. Therefore, logically, free will can only exist if God is not omniscient and illogical if God is omniscient with you having free will.

 

[muhammad_isa]

This means that in the present, God did not and cannot have foreknowledge of the choice that you are going to make in the future..

It seems like that..
..but we believe that God can.
It's all about the nature of reality we call this universe.
We don't believe that our perception and God's perception are identical.

 

[night912]

It seems like that..
..but we believe that God can.

You believing that something is true eventhough it contradicts with what you know, demonstrates that you are being irrational.

It's all about the nature of reality we call this universe.
We don't believe that our perception and God's perception are identical.

And the matter of the nature of reality we call this universe is not contingent on your beliefs. What matters is what actually is.

Just like how a robot is programmed to do specific actions in a specific sequence, such as choosing option A instead of B, then C instead of D, then E instead of F and so on. The robot is unaware that it was programmed to only choose A, C and E. It's unaware that it's program makes it impossible for it to choose B, D and F. The actual reality is not dependent on it being unaware and/or its perception.

 

[Sheldon]

Regarding "set in stone" and "fixed and unchangeable" I think that what @muhammad_isa was saying is that the future became set in stone once we made a choice, because we could not undo the choice that we made and the results of that choice.

No, he said the future is set in stone.

For example, let's say a man decided to kill his wife. Once he made that choice and killed his wife he could not undo that act so it is set in stone.

Once we have made any choice, it is not the future.

 

[Trailblazer]

No, he said the future is set in stone.

@muhammad_isa said that so he will have to explain what he meant by that. I was just guessing.

Once we have made any choice, it is not the future.

No, obviously not. We make a choice in the present and then it becomes the past.
The future does not exist until it becomes the present.

 

[muhammad_isa]

@muhammad_isa said that so he will have to explain what he meant by that. I was just guessing.

I did explain it.
I said that the future is "set" by our choices, just as the past.

While we differentiate between the past and the future, if we look at time as a fourth dimension, as in that predicted by relativity, there IS no real separation of past and future .. and "now" is only a perception.

..but that is getting all very technical.

 

[Sheldon]

I said that the future is "set" by our choices, just as the past.

No you set the future is set in stone.

Yes, the future is "set in stone"

Set in stone means it is unchangeable, if we cannot change what will happen, this would negate any notion of free will.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Set in stone means it is unchangeable,.

That is correct.
We cannot change it.

..but change what?
What it will be .. that's what.

 

[Mark Charles Compton]

Hmm... Sabine Hossenfelder, PhD. may have within the following video an explanation of the phenomena being debated within this thread...
I recommend everyone give it a view, she is very good (imho) at laying down physics in a method that is digestible, even for laymen like myself:

 

[muhammad_isa]

Mmm .. she's basically saying that QM [ Bell's theorem ] does not debunk Einstein's idea of a deterministic universe .. and free-will is not an issue .. it is all about the interpretation.

Long live Einstein !

 

[Tiberius]

If you must do what God has foreseen you will do what is making you do it, if not God’s foreknowledge?
Yet you have denied that God’s foreknowledge is making you do it.

I've lost track of how many times I've already answered this question. If you ignored me before, I have to conclude that you'll ignore me again.

I know that you will do what God knows you will do, but why couldn’t you choose what God knew you would choose from all the available options?

Because there is only ONE available option, and that means it is not a choice.

God has always known what you will choose to do but it was never locked in until you chose to do it. God has always known when and why you would choose it from all the available options because God is all-knowing.

It was never locked in? What does that mean? That it could be changed? Then how could God know for sure if it could be changed?

God has always known what you would do but what God knows is COMPLETELY SEPARATE from want you choose to do in this material realm of existence. What God knows has no bearing upon what you choose to do.

Again, I can't tell you how many times I've said that I'm not claiming that God's foreknowledge is what makes me do things.

How many more times are you going to bring up this strawman argument?

straw man

noun
noun: strawman

1. 1.
   an intentionally misrepresented proposition that is set up because it is easier to defeat than an opponent's real argument.
   "her familiar procedure of creating a straw man by exaggerating their approach"
   
   
2. 2.
   a person regarded as having no substance or integrity.
   "a photogenic straw man gets inserted into office and advisers dictate policy"

No, I did not say you had not answered my question BEFORE.
I said "Why can't you answer my simple question?"

If you had known that I had answered the question before, you would not have needed to ask my why I couldn't answer it.

Remember what you said, that God's foreknowledge doesn't force you to make a choice.

Yes I know. And nowhere have I said it does.

So stop going on about it.

No, God did not PREDETERMINE anything you would do, God only KNEW what you would do, but God’s foreknowledge does not determine what you choose. You made all those choices with your own free will.

When did I say that GOD is the one who predetermines anything?

YOU are the one who started talking about God predetermining things in post 6059: "We have to do what God has predetermined, whatever that is."

If God predestined something for you that would be your fate but God has not predestined everything that happens to humans. Most of what happens to us is freely chosen.

As I've already explained, if even a single thing has been predetermined, then EVERYTHING must be predetermined, at least until that predetermined event has occurred.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Because there is only ONE available option, and that means it is not a choice..

There are many options to choose from. You will only choose the ONE option that God knows because He knows what you will choose of your own free-will. You are putting the cart before the horse.