Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Sheldon]

False.
If you are able to time-travel to the future, you are able to know what choices a person will make. Free-will is a completely separate issue.

That's because if you travelled to the future, those choices would have already been made, you're claiming a deity knows exactly what we will choose before we choose, and that we cannot choose otherwise, and that the future is set in stone. This would negate any notion of free will.

Also we can't travel in time, but this fails even as a hypothetical.

 

[muhammad_isa]

we can't travel in time..

Irrelevant .. we can't do a lot of the things that a believer believes God is capable of.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yeah, you can say that effect can precede cause all you want, but making that claim doesn't mean it actually makes sense.

What is the effect, the choice of the color of shirt you will wear?
What causes you to choose that color?
You have repeatedly said that God's foreknowledge is not the cause.
That would mean there has to be another cause. I know you have said you don't know what the cause is but everything has a cause.

Universal causation is the proposition that everything in the universe has a cause and is thus an effect of that cause. This means that if a given event occurs, then this is the result of a previous, related event.

Universal causation - Wikipedia

 

[Trailblazer]

If God isn't saying anything, how do you know he has perfectly accurate knowledge about the future?

God does say things to His Messengers, and that is how I know.
However, God is not saying to the Messenger: "Tibs will wear a red shirt."

It doesn't matter that God's knowledge isn't causing John's actions.

We've been over this.

God's knowledge that John will kill his wife doesn't cause John to kill his wife in the same way that my knowledge that Spock will sacrifice himself in Star Trek 2 isn't what makes Spock sacrifice himself in Star Trek 2.

But, like Spock, John can't choose to do anything different. Spock is NEVER going to decide to jump in an escape pod and blast out of there, after all. Spock's actions are locked in and can't be altered.

Yet you cannot explain WHY John can't choose to do anything different.
John will choose what God knows John will choose because God knows what John will choose.
We all know that.

What you cannot explain is why John cannot choose anything different.
I have told you repeatedly that if John chose something different that would be what God knew John was going to choose.

 

[Tiberius]

False.
If you are able to time-travel to the future, you are able to know what choices a person will make. Free-will is a completely separate issue.

Oh, great idea, let's play with this!

So I invent a time machine and travel into the future. I visit you on January 1st, 2023, visiting you in your home in the UK. After playing some board games, I return to the present, April 2022. I continue to live my life here without time travel, but I am developing a plan. I decide that I am going to kidnap you on December 29th and take you to Australia, where I will keep you for a week before returning you to the UK.

Am I able to do this?

I mean, if I can, then you will NOT be in the UK on January 1st, since you would have been taken to Australia for a week. And yet, that can't possibly happen, because I saw that the future shows that you MUST be in the UK.

So maybe something will prevent me from choosing to kidnap you. Oh, but then we have something that takes away free will, and that can't be, because the crux of your argument is that we DO have free will, and you can't have a proof of free will that depends on removing someone's free will.

So what is your solution?

 

[Tiberius]

What is the effect, the choice of the color of shirt you will wear?

Irrelevant.

What causes you to choose that color?
You have repeatedly said that God's foreknowledge is not the cause.

Yes, I have repeatedly said that it is not required that God's knowledge be the cause of it. I have also repeatedly said that I don't know what the cause would be.

And, given that I don't believe that this situation where God knows the future is the situation that we are actually in, I don't see any reason to try to figure out what the cause is.

That would mean there has to be another cause. I know you have said you don't know what the cause is but everything has a cause.

Universal causation is the proposition that everything in the universe has a cause and is thus an effect of that cause. This means that if a given event occurs, then this is the result of a previous, related event.

Universal causation - Wikipedia

Did you read the article?

It lists several objections and criticisms to this idea.

Also, if everything is determinate, then it robs us of free will, as universal causation says that all events are able to be determined ahead of time.

 

[Tiberius]

God does say things to His Messengers, and that is how I know.

So you know that God has perfect knowledge about the future because there was a guy who said, "God spoke to me and told me that he has perfect knowledge of the future. However, you can't confirm this, because God only speaks to me, and he can't speak to you."

However, God is not saying to the Messenger: "Tibs will wear a red shirt."

And the guy who claims that God spoke to him to say that God has perfect knowledge of the future provides absolutely NOTHING to confirm his claim.

Yet you cannot explain WHY John can't choose to do anything different.
John will choose what God knows John will choose because God knows what John will choose.
We all know that.

Yes, I can explain why John can't choose to do anything different.

Because on the condition that God knows that John will kill his wife, john is unable to do anything differently because doing so would render God's knowledge incorrect.

What you cannot explain is why John cannot choose anything different.

I can and I have.

We've already had a few times when you keep asking me the same question repeatedly and I tell you that I have answered it, and you say that I haven't, and then I show you exactly where I have answered it.

Do not do the same thing here. I have been as patient as I can be in the past, but my patience with that kind of thing is rapidly wearing thin.

I have told you repeatedly that if John chose something different that would be what God knew John was going to choose.

And you are once again putting the cart before the horse.

No matter what happens, John MUST do what God knows he will do. There is no way he can do anything different. John's action MUST ALWAYS match God's foreknowledge, and so John can't do anything different.

 

[muhammad_isa]

Oh, great idea, let's play with this!
...
So what is your solution?

..so now you want to create paradoxes about the concept?

No.
The time line is fixed all the way along.

Past -------------->Present---------------->Future

Nothing in the past can change, and nothing in the future can change.
This is in line with that predicted by relativity.

All along the line, it is fixed by our choices. If we travel to the future, we can find out what those choices were .. we can't change them.

 

[Trailblazer]

And, given that I don't believe that this situation where God knows the future is the situation that we are actually in, I don't see any reason to try to figure out what the cause is.

You don't believe that God knows the future?
God is all-knowing so God knows the past, present, and future, as we refer to them in this world, but from God's perspective everything has already occurred.

Did you read the article?

It lists several objections and criticisms to this idea.

Also, if everything is determinate, then it robs us of free will, as universal causation says that all events are able to be determined ahead of time.

I read it but I do not care what the article says regarding universal causation and that all events are able to be determined ahead of time. Events cannot be determined ahead of time although some events, like an eclipse or a weather-related event can be predicted. What people will choose to do cannot be known ahead of time, except by God, who knows everything we will ever choose to do.

 

[Trailblazer]

So you know that God has perfect knowledge about the future because there was a guy who said, "God spoke to me and told me that he has perfect knowledge of the future. However, you can't confirm this, because God only speaks to me, and he can't speak to you."

Not only do I know it as a Baha'i, but Christians and Muslims also know it, since they both agree with me about God having perfect knowledge of the future. Of course I cannot confirm it, nobody can confirm it since it is a religious belief.

And the guy who claims that God spoke to him to say that God has perfect knowledge of the future provides absolutely NOTHING to confirm his claim.

Baha'u'llah said that God has foreknowledge, which is perfect knowledge of the future, but how do you think anyone can prove that?! For heaven's sake, nobody can even prove that God exists!

Yes, I can explain why John can't choose to do anything different.

Because on the condition that God knows that John will kill his wife, john is unable to do anything differently because doing so would render God's knowledge incorrect.

Anything different from what?

John won't do anything different from the one thing John chose to do, from all the available options John had to choose from

John won't do anything different from the one thing that God has always known that John would choose to do.

On the condition that God knows that John will kill his wife, but you do not know that God knows that John will kill His wife, NOBODY knows that except God, not even Baha'u'llah knows that.

And you are once again putting the cart before the horse.

No matter what happens, John MUST do what God knows he will do. There is no way he can do anything different. John's action MUST ALWAYS match God's foreknowledge, and so John can't do anything different.

Correction: No matter what happens, John WILL do what God knows he will do. There is no way he WILL do anything different if the all-knowing God knows what he will do.

If God is all-knowing, John's action WILL ALWAYS match God's foreknowledge, and so John won't do anything different.

But that does not explain why John does not have free will to choose from several options, and choose the one thing that God knows John will choose, so your argument is dead in the water.

 

[Tiberius]

..so now you want to create paradoxes about the concept?

No.
The time line is fixed all the way along.

Past -------------->Present---------------->Future

Nothing in the past can change, and nothing in the future can change.
This is in line with that predicted by relativity.

All along the line, it is fixed by our choices. If we travel to the future, we can find out what those choices were .. we can't change them.

So how in the world can you say that the past and future are both unchangeable, and then say we have free will?

And you didn't answer the question.

If I go to the future and see you will wear the red shirt on Friday, what's to stop me from destroying the red shirt on Thursday? By your claim, SOMETHING must happen to stop me from destroying it. But what?

 

[Tiberius]

You don't believe that God knows the future?

I'm an atheist. I don't believe in God at all!

I am trying to tell you that a hypothetical world in which God DOES know the future is a world where free will can not exist.

God is all-knowing so God knows the past, present, and future, as we refer to them in this world, but from God's perspective everything has already occurred.

Doesn't matter. We still have no choice in what we do in this situation.

I read it but I do not care what the article says regarding universal causation and that all events are able to be determined ahead of time. Events cannot be determined ahead of time although some events, like an eclipse or a weather-related event can be predicted. What people will choose to do cannot be known ahead of time, except by God, who knows everything we will ever choose to do.

You DON'T CARE what the article says?

You seemed to care plenty when you could use it to support your position.

Now you're just cherry picking. Logical fallacy, naughty girl, go sit in the corner and think about what you've done.

 

[muhammad_isa]

So how in the world can you say that the past and future are both unchangeable, and then say we have free will?

Mere words.
You claim that the future is "changable" meaning it can be anything at all.
..whereas I'm saying that there is only one future, and not billions of different ones. That means that if somebody travels to the future, they will see the same as another person who travels to the future.

Do you understand now?
..probably not

 

[Tiberius]

Not only do I know it as a Baha'i, but Christians and Muslims also know it, since they both agree with me about God having perfect knowledge of the future. Of course I cannot confirm it, nobody can confirm it since it is a religious belief.

If nobody can confirm it, stop spouting it as a fact.

Baha'u'llah said that God has foreknowledge, which is perfect knowledge of the future, but how do you think anyone can prove that?! For heaven's sake, nobody can even prove that God exists!

If nobody can confirm it, stop spouting it as a fact.

Anything different from what?

John won't do anything different from the one thing John chose to do, from all the available options John had to choose from

John won't do anything different from the one thing that God has always known that John would choose to do

The second one.

If John can't do anything different to what God knows he will do, then John has no free will.

On the condition that God knows that John will kill his wife, but you do not know that God knows that John will kill His wife, NOBODY knows that except God, not even Baha'u'llah knows that.

You don't know that God knows that. All you've got is some unverifiable claim from a guy.

Correction

: No matter what happens, John WILL do what God knows he will do. There is no way he WILL do anything different if the all-knowing God knows what he will do.

If God is all-knowing, John's action WILL ALWAYS match God's foreknowledge, and so John won't do anything different.

But that does not explain why John does not have free will to choose from several options, and choose the one thing that God knows John will choose, so your argument is dead in the water.

Yes, it does explain why. John can not avoid doing what God has foreseen he will do. His actions are already decided. He may THINK he chooses, but he does not.

 

[Tiberius]

Mere words.
You claim that the future is "changable" meaning it can be anything at all.
..whereas I'm saying that there is only one future, and not billions of different ones. That means that if somebody travels to the future, they will see the same as another person who travels to the future.

Do you understand now?
..probably not

I get what you mean.

My point is that this means we do not have free will!

 

[Trailblazer]

I'm an atheist. I don't believe in God at all!

I am trying to tell you that a hypothetical world in which God DOES know the future is a world where free will can not exist.

Dream on. There is no contradiction between God's omniscience and human fee will.

Doesn't matter. We still have no choice in what we do in this situation.

Yes we do. What God knows has no bearing on our ability to choose, none at all.

You DON'T CARE what the article says?

You seemed to care plenty when you could use it to support your position.

How do you know I cared plenty?
If I needed an article to support my position I could find plenty of other articles.
Everything that happens has a cause. What we choose is caused by our ability to choose, our volition.

 

[Tiberius]

Dream on. There is no contradiction between God's omniscience and human fee will.

Yes there is. Because if there is an omniscient being, we can't do anything except what that omniscient being knows we will do. If we can't do anything except that, we do not have the free will to do something different.

Yes we do. What God knows has no bearing on our ability to choose, none at all.

If God knows that we will do X, then X is the only possible thing we can do. If there is only one possible thing we can do, we do not have free will.

How do you know I cared plenty?
If I needed an article to support my position I could find plenty of other articles.
Everything that happens has a cause. What we choose is caused by our ability to choose, our volition.

And yet you chose to use this one.

Once again, you are cherry picking. You present some source as valid when you can use it to support your position, but when it's pointed out that it work against your position as well, you say the source is unimportant.

 

[Trailblazer]

If nobody can confirm it, stop spouting it as a fact.

I never spouted it as a fact. I told you many times a belief is not a fact.

If nobody can confirm it, stop spouting it as a fact.

I never spouted it as a fact. I told you many times a belief is not a fact.

The second one.

If John can't do anything different to what God knows he will do, then John has no free will.

I did not say John can't do anything different. I said John won't do anything different from the one thing John chose to do, from all the available options John had to choose from.
~~~ AND ~~~
John won't do anything different from the one thing that God has always known that John would choose to do.

John could have done something different from what he chose to do, in which case God would have known that John was going to do something different.

You don't know that God knows that. All you've got is some unverifiable claim from a guy.

No, I do not have a claim from anyone. I said "NOBODY knows that except God, not even Baha'u'llah knows that."

Yes, it does explain why. John can not avoid doing what God has foreseen he will do. His actions are already decided. He may THINK he chooses, but he does not.

If you are claiming that John's actions are decided by what God has foreseen, you are saying that John cannot make more than one choice, so you are contradicting what you said earlier: "God's foreknowledge doesn't force you to make a choice."

But that is neither here nor there, because your argument is still dead on arrival because you STILL have not explained why John does not have free will to choose from several different options, and choose the one thing that God knows John will choose.

 

[Trailblazer]

Yes there is. Because if there is an omniscient being, we can't do anything except what that omniscient being knows we will do. If we can't do anything except that, we do not have the free will to do something different.

God gave us free will to choose so we can do any damn thing we please if it is an available option. You can't wear the blue shirt to your meeting tomorrow if it is in the laundry, so you will have to choose another color.

The omnipotent being knows what we will do but we CAN choose to do anything we want to do, and whatever it is will be identical to what the omnipotent being knows we will do.

If God knows that we will do X, then X is the only possible thing we can do. If there is only one possible thing we can do, we do not have free will.

What God knows does not affect our ability to choose between x, y, and z.
Whatever we choose will be identical to what God knew we would choose ONLY because God knew what we will choose. This is logic 101 stuff. However, if you don't know how God operates you are flying blind because you are trying to form a conclusion with faulty premises.

Question.—If God has knowledge of an action which will be performed by someone, and it has been written on the Tablet of Fate, is it possible to resist it?

Answer.—The foreknowledge of a thing is not the cause of its realization; for the essential knowledge of God surrounds, in the same way, the realities of things, before as well as after their existence, and it does not become the cause of their existence. It is a perfection of God.......
Some Answered Questions, p. 138

I suggest you watch this 10 minute video that @Nimos posted on the other thread.
Pay close attention to 7:14 ----> 9:02 because it is accurate.

 

[Tiberius]

I never spouted it as a fact. I told you many times a belief is not a fact.

I never spouted it as a fact. I told you many times a belief is not a fact.

You are not presenting it as a belief. You are saying, "This is what God is," and you are unwilling to look at different points of view.

I did not say John can't do anything different. I said John won't do anything different from the one thing John chose to do, from all the available options John had to choose from.
~~~ AND ~~~
John won't do anything different from the one thing that God has always known that John would choose to do.

John could have done something different from what he chose to do, in which case God would have known that John was going to do something different.

If it is the case that 100% of the time that no one ever in the entire history of the universe ever WANTS to do something different to what God knows they will do, how is that any different to them being UNABLE to do anything different.

No, I do not have a claim from anyone. I said "NOBODY knows that except God, not even Baha'u'llah knows that."

And that is you claiming that nobody knows except God.

If you are claiming that John's actions are decided by what God has foreseen,

Are you really beating this dead horse again?

you are saying that John cannot make more than one choice, so you are contradicting what you said earlier: "God's foreknowledge doesn't force you to make a choice."

God's foreknowledge means we are locked into doing what God has foreknowledge we will do.

Doesn't matter what the cause of that "locking in" is, the actions are locked in. And if someone's actions are locked in, they can't be changed, and thus they have no free choice.

But that is neither here nor there, because your argument is still dead on arrival because you STILL have not explained why John does not have free will to choose from several different options, and choose the one thing that God knows John will choose.

I have explained why MANY times.

John does not have the free will to choose from several different options BECAUSE HE DOES NOT HAVE SEVERAL DIFFERENT OPTIONS.

If God knows that John will kill his wife, John does NOT have the option to let her live. There is only ONE THING he can possibly do, and that is to kill her.

Or are you suggesting that God would be, "Oh, I totally know that John's gonna kill his wife, he's totally gonna do it, oh wow, he didn't kill her. I did NOT see that coming!"

I have explained MANY times, IF God knows that John will kill his wife, then John has no choice but to kill his wife.