Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Tiberius]

God gave us free will to choose so we can do any damn thing we please if it is an available option. You can't wear the blue shirt to your meeting tomorrow if it is in the laundry, so you will have to choose another color.

If God has foreseen that we won't do it, then it's not an available option, is it?

The omnipotent being knows what we will do but we CAN choose to do anything we want to do, and whatever it is will be identical to what the omnipotent being knows we will do.

Repeating the same illogical claim does not make it any more logical.

What God knows does not affect our ability to choose between x, y, and z.
Whatever we choose will be identical to what God knew we would choose ONLY because God knew what we will choose. This is logic 101 stuff. However, if you don't know how God operates you are flying blind because you are trying to form a conclusion with faulty premises.

Logic 101 would indicate that if there is only one available option - what God has foreseen we will do - then it's not a choice.

Question.—If God has knowledge of an action which will be performed by someone, and it has been written on the Tablet of Fate, is it possible to resist it?

Answer.—The foreknowledge of a thing is not the cause of its realization; for the essential knowledge of God surrounds, in the same way, the realities of things, before as well as after their existence, and it does not become the cause of their existence. It is a perfection of God.......
Some Answered Questions, p. 138

Cool story, but it's about as convincing to me as an issue of Batman being evidence that Bruce Wayne is a billionaire in Gotham City would be convincing to you.

I suggest you watch this 10 minute video that @Nimos posted on the other thread.
Pay close attention to 7:14 ----> 9:02 because it is accurate.

And he makes the mistake at 8:20.

I'm perfectly happy to entertain the idea of a God that can see all of time at once. It is, after all, pretty much the same as me knowing everything that is going to happen when I watch Star Trek 2. When Bones visits Kirk for his birthday, I know that Bones is later going to be getting a mind meld from Spock before Spock sacrifices himself. But that only works because the events are set in stone. Spock has no free will. He MUST sacrifice himself. He's not sacrificing himself because I know he will, but I know he will because I know what is going to happen. I've seen it before, I've already seen the future events. But this fact locks Spock into a particular course of action. Spock can't CHOOSE to escape in a shuttle craft. Spock can't CHOOSE to order one of the cadets to fix the engines instead of him. Spock MUST be the one to do it. Spock may THINK he has free choice, but he does not. And if God is outside of time and knows the future, then we are similarly locked into the course of action that God has foreseen. We just have to wait until we get there, but we can no more choose to do something different than Spock can.

 

[PureX]

I would like to point out, here, that evidence that you discount is still evidence. So discounting ALL the evidence that you have ever been offered in your entire life, and then claiming that "there is no evidence" is false. It's a lie.

So is claiming that the lack of evidence is evidence of a lack. The only way something missing can be evidence of something missing is if there was a reasonable, defined, expectation of discernible evidence of it being there in the first place.

This is just logic 101, and yet I see so many 'atheists' on here making both of these fundamental thinking errors over and over and over, even as they proclaim their utmost reverence for logic, reason, and truth. It's a bit laughable.

 

[Trailblazer]

You are not presenting it as a belief. You are saying, "This is what God is," and you are unwilling to look at different points of view.

I 'believe' this is what God is. I will look at other points of view but I am not changing my belief unless I have a good reason to do so, just like you are not going to 'become' a believer unless you have a good reason to do so.

If it is the case that 100% of the time that no one ever in the entire history of the universe ever WANTS to do something different to what God knows they will do, how is that any different to them being UNABLE to do anything different.

I never claimed that 100% of the time no one ever in the entire history of the universe ever WANTS to do something different to what God knows they will do. They might WANT to do something different but they WON'T do anything different. They will CHOOSE to do what God knows they will CHOOSE to do, from all the options that were available to them.

And that is you claiming that nobody knows except God.

Yes, that is what I believe.

God's foreknowledge means we are locked into doing what God has foreknowledge we will do.

No, it means that we WILL DO whatever God knows we will do, only because God knows what we will do. God's foreknowledge is not the reason we will do it. We can choose a, b, c, d, e, f or g, and whichever one we choose will be what God has always known we will choose. This is so simple, logic 101.

Doesn't matter what the cause of that "locking in" is, the actions are locked in. And if someone's actions are locked in, they can't be changed, and thus they have no free choice.

Nobody's actions are locked in by God's foreknowledge that they will occur. If our actions were locked in by God's foreknowledge that would be the same as saying that God's foreknowledge is the CAUSE of things that happen, but foreknowledge that something is going to happen does not cause anything to happen.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

There is no logical connection between what God knows we will do and what we will choose to do. If I know for a fact that you are going to attend a wedding next Saturday, does my knowledge that you are going to attend a wedding cause you to attend the wedding? No, you choose to go to the wedding with your own free will.

It is no different with God. God knows what you will do but that does not cause you to do it. You choose to do it and you do it. Whatever one thing you choose to do - from all the available options - will be what God has always known you would choose to do because God has perfect foreknowledge and God can never be wrong.

I have explained why MANY times.

John does not have the free will to choose from several different options BECAUSE HE DOES NOT HAVE SEVERAL DIFFERENT OPTIONS.

If God knows that John will kill his wife, John does NOT have the option to let her live. There is only ONE THING he can possibly do, and that is to kill her.

Or are you suggesting that God would be, "Oh, I totally know that John's gonna kill his wife, he's totally gonna do it, oh wow, he didn't kill her. I did NOT see that coming!"

I have explained MANY times, IF God knows that John will kill his wife, then John has no choice but to kill his wife.

IF God knows that John will kill his wife, THEN John will kill his wife, but that does not mean that John did not have other choices available to him BEFORE he chose to kill his wife. This is what keeps flying over your head.

You still have not explained why John did not have other choices available to him BEFORE He chose to kill his wife, so you are still dead in the water.

God knows everything, so God knows that John had other choices available to him before he chose to kill his wife. IF John chose to kill his wife, THEN that would be what God knew John would do, because God is all-knowing. IF John chose not to kill his wife, THEN that would be what God knew John would do, because God is all-knowing.

 

[Trailblazer]

If God has foreseen that we won't do it, then it's not an available option, is it?

It is an option that we will not choose, but before we made our choice it was an available option.

Repeating the same illogical claim does not make it any more logical.

Repeating your same illogical claim does not make it any more logical.

Logic 101 would indicate that if there is only one available option - what God has foreseen we will do - then it's not a choice.

I do not care if you like it but I am going to point it out. When you say there is only 'one available option' and 'it's not a choice' that means you are forced to make only one choice, so you are contradicting what you said before when you said "God's foreknowledge doesn't force you to make a choice."

Only one choice will be made because we can only make one choice. I cannot choose to go to to Europe tomorrow and also choose to stay home.

Logic 101 would indicate that if there were several choices we can make but we will only choose one of them because we cannot choose more than one. You cannot wear a blue shirt and a red shirt unless you want to go around looking funny. You cannot buy a red car and a blue car unless you have enough money for two cars, in which case God would have seen you buying two cars.

Whatever one choice we make (A) will be the choice that God has always known we would make but that does not mean that we could not have made any other choices (B, C, D), in which case B, C, or D would have been the one choice that God knew we would make.

This logic is so simple a third grader could understand but your bias prevents you from understanding it.
You have already decided I am wrong, so you have not even tried to see my pov. You never even respond to it, you just keep repeating the same old mantra that I have refuted numerous times.

Cool story, but it's about as convincing to me as an issue of Batman being evidence that Bruce Wayne is a billionaire in Gotham City would be convincing to you.

It is not a story, it is the truth about God and how God operates and it is also logic 101.

 

[Tinker Grey]

I know I'm 300+ pages late, but I'm addressing only the free-will thing. Here goes:

It seems to me that the main question is how God knows what God knows. Is he/she/it just a really good guesser, so good it's never wrong? Or, as someone suggested, does it time travel (from when to when and whence to return)? Is it outside time and thus all of time, beginning-to-end, laid out before it?

If it is merely a good guesser (or a time traveler), then it would be subject to time. After all, we understand, to a degree, that the universe is the space-time continuum. If it is a good guesser, then it is subject to 'now' just as we are and doesn't know the future anymore than we do. There is the concept of Open theism - Wikipedia which as far as I can tell is not in vogue. It seemed more credible as a solution before the concept of space-time gained a nearly universal (cough) foothold in the sciences.

As with many problems in theism, they are mitigated by a willingness to give up an omni or some other attribute of God (e.g., foreknowledge). Under the conditions that a god is a really good guesser that in principle could be wrong though it never is or a time traveler who knows only because it "peeked ahead", then I could accept that this god's knowledge is compatible with free will (unless it biases the outcome by telling you what you will do.)

Most of the believers I know (and I was one) believe that God is outside time and space. This has implications. A god outside time has no way a human can conceive how a being with no time does anything at all. How does such a one do action A and then action B? What is the sequencing mechanism? And you want an infinite regress, well here is a real one. The universe doesn't traverse time; it is time. (I think it is the B-theory of time that suggests that all time future is just as real all time past. It all exists.) But, a being that has some mechanism of sequencing of actions that has existed from eternity past (whatever that may mean) in fact does traverse, let's call it, god-time. How did this being ever get to the point in god-time where it created this universe?

But what about free-will. If God is outside time, whatever that means, and creates the entire space-time continuum such that the all of space-time exists entire, then not only does it know what you are "going" to do, but it created you in the act, each and every act. It created every act you ever did and ever will do.

This god is incompatible with free will.

 

[Tiberius]

I 'believe' this is what God is. I will look at other points of view but I am not changing my belief unless I have a good reason to do so, just like you are not going to 'become' a believer unless you have a good reason to do so.

A question...

I will change my mind about God when given good evidence (that is, evidence that withstands investigation, can be tested and verified, and is not built on logical fallacies).

What would change your mind? Can you give an example of the sort of thing that would get you to change your mind?

I never claimed that 100% of the time no one ever in the entire history of the universe ever WANTS to do something different to what God knows they will do. They might WANT to do something different but they WON'T do anything different. They will CHOOSE to do what God knows they will CHOOSE to do, from all the options that were available to them.

How does this work?

If a person really REALLY wants to choose option B, why would they ever choose option A?

Yes, that is what I believe.

Glad you agree that it's a claim.

No, it means that we WILL DO whatever God knows we will do, only because God knows what we will do. God's foreknowledge is not the reason we will do it. We can choose a, b, c, d, e, f or g, and whichever one we choose will be what God has always known we will choose. This is so simple, logic 101.

I NEVER SAID IT WAS!

STOP USING THIS STRAWMAN ARGUMENT. IF YOU USE IT AGAIN, I WILL REPORT YOU FOR TROLLING.
​

Nobody's actions are locked in by God's foreknowledge that they will occur. If our actions were locked in by God's foreknowledge that would be the same as saying that God's foreknowledge is the CAUSE of things that happen, but foreknowledge that something is going to happen does not cause anything to happen.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

There is no logical connection between what God knows we will do and what we will choose to do. If I know for a fact that you are going to attend a wedding next Saturday, does my knowledge that you are going to attend a wedding cause you to attend the wedding? No, you choose to go to the wedding with your own free will.

It is no different with God. God knows what you will do but that does not cause you to do it. You choose to do it and you do it. Whatever one thing you choose to do - from all the available options - will be what God has always known you would choose to do because God has perfect foreknowledge and God can never be wrong.

I NEVER SAID IT WAS!

STOP USING THIS STRAWMAN ARGUMENT. IF YOU USE IT AGAIN, I WILL REPORT YOU FOR TROLLING.​

IF God knows that John will kill his wife, THEN John will kill his wife, but that does not mean that John did not have other choices available to him BEFORE he chose to kill his wife. This is what keeps flying over your head.

So you are telling me that God can know 100% for-sure, can't-possibly-be-wrong that John will kill his wife...

BUT

There's still a chance that John WON"T kill his wife?

How does that work?

You still have not explained why John did not have other choices available to him BEFORE He chose to kill his wife, so you are still dead in the water.

Because God knows what the only possible outcome will be.

If God knows what the ONLY POSSIBLE OUTCOME is, then all other outcomes are IMPOSSIBLE.

God knows everything, so God knows that John had other choices available to him before he chose to kill his wife. IF John chose to kill his wife, THEN that would be what God knew John would do, because God is all-knowing. IF John chose not to kill his wife, THEN that would be what God knew John would do, because God is all-knowing.

No, God knows that John did NOT have other choices, because God knew that John could only ever do what God had foreseen he will do.

 

[CG Didymus]

I know I'm 300+ pages late, but I'm addressing only the free-will thing. Here goes:

It seems to me that the main question is how God knows what God knows. Is he/she/it just a really good guesser, so good it's never wrong? Or, as someone suggested, does it time travel (from when to when and whence to return)? Is it outside time and thus all of time, beginning-to-end, laid out before it?

If it is merely a good guesser (or a time traveler), then it would be subject to time. After all, we understand, to a degree, that the universe is the space-time continuum. If it is a good guesser, then it is subject to 'now' just as we are and doesn't know the future anymore than we do. There is the concept of Open theism - Wikipedia which as far as I can tell is not in vogue. It seemed more credible as a solution before the concept of space-time gained a nearly universal (cough) foothold in the sciences.

As with many problems in theism, they are mitigated by a willingness to give up an omni or some other attribute of God (e.g., foreknowledge). Under the conditions that a god is a really good guesser that in principle could be wrong though it never is or a time traveler who knows only because it "peeked ahead", then I could accept that this god's knowledge is compatible with free will (unless it biases the outcome by telling you what you will do.)

Most of the believers I know (and I was one) believe that God is outside time and space. This has implications. A god outside time has no way a human can conceive how a being with no time does anything at all. How does such a one do action A and then action B? What is the sequencing mechanism? And you want an infinite regress, well here is a real one. The universe doesn't traverse time; it is time. (I think it is the B-theory of time that suggests that all time future is just as real all time past. It all exists.) But, a being that has some mechanism of sequencing of actions that has existed from eternity past (whatever that may mean) in fact does traverse, let's call it, god-time. How did this being ever get to the point in god-time where it created this universe?

But what about free-will. If God is outside time, whatever that means, and creates the entire space-time continuum such that the all of space-time exists entire, then not only does it know what you are "going" to do, but it created you in the act, each and every act. It created every act you ever did and ever will do.

This god is incompatible with free will.

Yeah, like God creates everything, takes a look at it from beginning to end and says, "Yup, that works for me. I gave those little buggers free-will to do anything they wanted, to listen to me or not, and, just as I suspected, most of them didn't listen to me. Now let me go create a fiery abyss to put all those that disobeyed me."

But no, another glitch, Baha'i don't believe in a literal hell. So, God gave Jesus misinformation? Or, it's all just people, prophets, connecting to some mystical source of knowledge but interpreting it through their religious beliefs? Like Baha'u'llah doing it through Shia Islam?

 

[Trailblazer]

But what about free-will. If God is outside time, whatever that means, and creates the entire space-time continuum such that the all of space-time exists entire, then not only does it know what you are "going" to do, but it created you in the act, each and every act. It created every act you ever did and ever will do.

This god is incompatible with free will.

If God is outside time, and creates the entire space-time continuum such that the all of space-time exists entire, then God knows what you are "going" to do, but just because God has foreknowledge of what we are going to do that does not mean God causes our actions. There is no logical connection whatsoever.

“Every act ye meditate is as clear to Him as is that act when already accomplished. There is none other God besides Him. His is all creation and its empire. All stands revealed before Him; all is recorded in His holy and hidden Tablets. This fore-knowledge of God, however, should not be regarded as having caused the actions of men, just as your own previous knowledge that a certain event is to occur, or your desire that it should happen, is not and can never be the reason for its occurrence.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 150

God created humans with free will, so it is obvious that God did not want to control our actions.
Rather, God wants us to choose our own actions.

 

[Tinker Grey]

If God is outside time, and creates the entire space-time continuum such that the all of space-time exists entire, then God knows what you are "going" to do, but just because God has foreknowledge of what we are going to do that does not mean God causes our actions. There is no logical connection whatsoever.

Such a god literally created you doing the actions.

 

[Trailblazer]

A question...

I will change my mind about God when given good evidence (that is, evidence that withstands investigation, can be tested and verified, and is not built on logical fallacies).

What would change your mind? Can you give an example of the sort of thing that would get you to change your mind?

The only thing that would get me to change my mind is if you could prove that Baha'u'llah was not a Messenger of God. Good luck.

How does this work?

If a person really REALLY wants to choose option B, why would they ever choose option A?

They would not choose option A if they really REALLY wanted to choose option B.

I NEVER SAID IT WAS!

STOP USING THIS STRAWMAN ARGUMENT. IF YOU USE IT AGAIN, I WILL REPORT YOU FOR TROLLING.
​

Get a grip! I do not CARE if YOU said it was. There is no straw man because I did not say that you said anything. I said it because I wanted to say it and I will say it as long as I feel like saying it.
Other people reading this are free to decide what they think about what you said and what I said.

Tiberius said: God's foreknowledge means we are locked into doing what God has foreknowledge we will do.

Trailblazer said: No, it means that we WILL DO whatever God knows we will do, only because God knows what we will do. God's foreknowledge is not the reason we will do it. We can choose a, b, c, d, e, f or g, and whichever one we choose will be what God has always known we will choose. This is so simple, logic 101.

Report ME for trolling? That is a joke. I have posted all the threads that have the most posts and views on this forum ever since I have come here. I am no troll and all the staff knows that.

I NEVER SAID IT WAS!

STOP USING THIS STRAWMAN ARGUMENT. IF YOU USE IT AGAIN, I WILL REPORT YOU FOR TROLLING.​

Get a grip! I do not CARE if YOU said it was. There is no straw man because I did not say that you said anything. I said it because I wanted to say it and I will say it as long as I feel like saying it.
Other people reading this are free to decide what they think about what you said and what I said.

Tiberius said: Doesn't matter what the cause of that "locking in" is, the actions are locked in. And if someone's actions are locked in, they can't be changed, and thus they have no free choice.

Trailblazer said: Nobody's actions are locked in by God's foreknowledge that they will occur. If our actions were locked in by God's foreknowledge that would be the same as saying that God's foreknowledge is the CAUSE of things that happen, but foreknowledge that something is going to happen does not cause anything to happen.

Report ME for trolling? That is a joke. I have posted all the threads that have the most posts and views on this forum ever since I have come here. I am no troll and all the staff knows that.

So you are telling me that God can know 100% for-sure, can't-possibly-be-wrong that John will kill his wife...

BUT

There's still a chance that John WON"T kill his wife?

How does that work?

That is NOT what I said.
I said:
IF God knows that John will kill his wife, THEN John will kill his wife, but that does not mean that John did not have other choices available to him BEFORE he chose to kill his wife. This is what keeps flying over your head.

Because God knows what the only possible outcome will be.

If God knows what the ONLY POSSIBLE OUTCOME is, then all other outcomes are IMPOSSIBLE.

You still have not explained why John did not have other choices available to him BEFORE He chose to kill his wife, so you are still dead in the water.

No, God knows that John did NOT have other choices, because God knew that John could only ever do what God had foreseen he will do.

John will choose what God has foreseen John choosing, but BEFORE John made that one choice that God had foreseen, there were other choices that John could have made. John could have chosen any one of those because John has free will. Whatever John chose would have been the one choice that God had foreseen.

I am so sorry you cannot understand this, sorrier than you will ever know.
Only me and God know just how sorry I am.

But it is my own fault that I keep responding because I have free will to choose.

 

[Trailblazer]

Such a god literally created you doing the actions.

Prove it.

 

[Tinker Grey]

Prove it.

It's definitional. If god created the space-time continuum, all times past and future simultaneously, he created you doing every action you ever did or every will do.

Next you'll ask me to prove a circle is round.

 

[Trailblazer]

It's definitional. If god created the space-time continuum, all times past and future simultaneously, he created you doing every action you ever did or every will do.

Sorry, I do not know what you mean by "he created you doing every action you ever did or every will do."

 

[muhammad_isa]

Sorry, I do not know what you mean by "he created you doing every action you ever did or every will do."

It boils down to him believing that G-d must be responsible for all of our actions.

We don't believe that. There is no reason to believe that .. it is an unprovable assertion.

We believe that we have free-will, and that it is possible for G-d to know our future by some unknown mechanism.
Stating categorically that it is not possible means that they think they know how the universe works in its entirety .. which they don't.

 

[PureX]

I know I'm 300+ pages late, but I'm addressing only the free-will thing. Here goes:

It seems to me that the main question is how God knows what God knows. Is he/she/it just a really good guesser, so good it's never wrong? Or, as someone suggested, does it time travel (from when to when and whence to return)? Is it outside time and thus all of time, beginning-to-end, laid out before it?

I think most theists would say that God is eternal, meaning that the time constraints that we are locked into, and that cause us not to know the past or future (or the present, either, for that matter), do not constrain God. As God already exists in all times and places.

Omnipotence, omnipresence, and omniscience are not conditions that we humans can grasp. For obvious reasons. And yet we keep trying. We keep wanting to 'know' what we cannot know. It is just in our nature, I suppose. It's what defines us as human.

What is interesting to me, though, is how few of us realize that our 'unknowing' is our greatest blessing. Because it's in our not knowing the answers to these fundamental questions about the origin, meaning, and purpose of our own existence that we are free to invent them, and choose them for ourselves. And then to live accordingly. And as we do this, we are in effect crating ourselves. Or at least redefining ourselves. It doesn't matter what God knows or does not know. What matters is that WE DON'T KNOW. Because it's in that unknowing that we are free to speculate, and to choose our own path. Our ignorance is the foundation of our free will, not God's.

 

[Trailblazer]

It boils down to him believing that G-d must be responsible for all of our actions.

God knew every action everyone ever did or every will do, but that is not the same as saying that God created everyone doing every action they ever did or ever will do.
To believe that is completely illogical since God gave us free will to create our own actions.

 

[Sheldon]

That's because if you travelled to the future, those choices would have already been made, you're claiming a deity knows exactly what we will choose before we choose, and that we cannot choose otherwise, and that the future is set in stone. This would negate any notion of free will.

Also we can't travel in time, but this fails even as a hypothetical.

Irrelevant .. we can't do a lot of the things that a believer believes God is capable of.

You seem to have ignored everything in red.

 

[Sheldon]

If we travel to the future, we can find out what those choices were .. we can't change them.

Irrelevant since you've claimed a deity knows exactly what we will choose, before we choose it, and that we can only make the exact choice a deity knows we will choose, before we perceive choosing it.

You also claim the future is set in stone, while simultaneously claiming we can change it. So that is a pretty obvious contradiction.

 

[Sheldon]

there is only one future,

If that were true then it would entirely negate any notion of free will, and you have repeatedly claimed we can change the future with free will, you're still just going back and forth between contradictory claims.

 

[CG Didymus]

Such a god literally created you doing the actions.

Yeah, like God created people then gave them free-will to choose whatever they want. Then thought, "Gee, let me look ahead and see how everything turned out. Amazing, just like I planned."