Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

[Azrael Antilla]

Correct, that is the descriptive level but that is not the same as prescriptive.

Prescibe a set of ethics morals taboos etc?

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

If I accept everything she says as true, then sure.
But I don't, because they haven't been shown to be true.

Yeah, I know. But then we are doing philosophy and the answer is that not all truths are global/universal or what not. Or that truth has limits or whatever. Of course you can claim that you are the source of all truth however you claim it, but I just do it differently in some cases.

 

[Trailblazer]

It is when you're in a debate forum making truth claims.

I claim nothing because I have nothing to claim.

Baha'u'llah made claims because He had something to claim.

I have beliefs, not claims.

Claim: state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.
claim means - Google Search

Claim: to say that something is true or is a fact, although you cannot prove it and other people might not believe it: claim

Belief:
1. an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"

2. trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
"a belief in democratic politics"

https://www.google.com/search

 

[Sheldon]

I have made no claims.

I counted 7 claims you made just on this page?

I have made no claims.

Testable falsifiable evidence is the only objective way of proving something to be true.

God is not objective or testable

God can never be proven to exist.

there is not only no testable evidence for Gods

there is no test that can be made.

I believe that Messengers of God are the only evidence that God exists.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

Prescibe a set of ethics morals taboos etc?

Sorry. You have to do a lot better. If I have any actual speciality, it is to spot subjectivity in claims of morality.
Because all taboos are also local, cultural and relative to variations.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I have made no claims.

You have made many claims.

I'm not the only one to have pointed this out to you.

 

[Trailblazer]

Messengers of God?

You never heard of them?

 

[Sheldon]

I have beliefs, not claims.

Beliefs are the affirmation of a claim.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I claim nothing because I have nothing to claim.

Baha'u'llah made claims because He had something to claim.

I have beliefs, not claims.

Claim: state or assert that something is the case, typically without providing evidence or proof.
claim means - Google Search

Claim: to say that something is true or is a fact, although you cannot prove it and other people might not believe it: claim

Belief:
1. an acceptance that a statement is true or that something exists.
"his belief in the value of hard work"

2. trust, faith, or confidence in someone or something.
"a belief in democratic politics"

https://www.google.com/search

You are claiming that Baha'u'llah's claims are true.
Among other claims that many others in this thread have pointed out to you, including myself. This is getting rather tired.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Because the things you keep positing as evidence, are just more claims.

The claims are the evidence.

Why did a Messenger from God come? They came to change our direction in life from material pursuit to spiritual values and this is the evidence, has their Messages changed hearts and lives?

We are told by the Messenger that humankind has the capacity to emancipate itself from the world of nature; “for as long as man is captive to nature he is a ferocious animal, as the struggle for existence is one of the exigencies of the world of nature.” but at the same time the natural world is a divine trust given to us for which all members of the human family are the stewards of the planet’s vast resources and are responsible to use them wisely, without greed and want of power.

That is the evidence, the change of heart, a reframing of all our previous conceptions and embracing a new orientation for all our activities. The inward life of man as well as his outward environment are reshaped and that is one of the evidences of a Messenger.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

How do we determine whose claims are true?

By looking at the evidence.

 

[Azrael Antilla]

Sorry. You have to do a lot better. If I have any actual speciality, it is to spot subjectivity in claims of morality.
Because all taboos are also local, cultural and relative to variations.

It's not for science or scientists to promote any particular ethical or moral framework and call it scientifically objective, even if it is. Science is a tool. Not a source of moral authority. If anything, to prevent suffering and catastrophic failure and other things, the practice of science needs ethical constraint and oversight. To function effaciously and for collective benefit without causing unnecessary suffering and other detriment.

 

[Trailblazer]

The claims are the evidence.

Why do you think that? That would be circular reasoning. Moreover, anyone can make claims, as many false prophets do.
Baha'u'llah never said that His claims are the evidence that His claims are true. Rather He said:

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

 

[Azrael Antilla]

You never heard of them?

I have heard of the concept of Angels and self appointed spokespeople or prophets and the like.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

It's not for science or scientists to promote any particular ethical or moral framework and call it scientifically objective, even if it is. Science is a tool. Not a source of moral authority. If anything, to prevent suffering and catastrophic failure and other things, the practice of science needs ethical constraint and oversight. To function effaciously and for collective benefit without causing unnecessary suffering and other detriment.

So you said what is in part in this link:
https://undsci.berkeley.edu/article/0_0_0/whatisscience_12

 

[Trailblazer]

You've also claimed that Baha'u'llah's claims are true.

No, I never claimed that Baha'u'llah's claims are true. I said I believe that His claims are true.

Not only that, but you post Baha'u'llah's claims as truths, declaring that they are the evidence.

Never did I post Baha'u'llah's claims as truths, declaring that His claims are the evidence.

I guess the only way I can clear this up is to post the claims and the evidence that support the claims, so you can see the difference between claims and evidence.

Baha’u’llah’s Two Bold Claims

All of which leads us back to Baha’u’llah, who made two very bold claims. First, he declared he was God’s messenger for the next one thousand years, having the same divine authority, the same Holy Spirit, the same divine power, as Moses, Christ, Muhammad, and the other founders of the major world religions:

In the East the light of [God’s] Revelation hath broken; in the West have appeared the signs of His dominion. Ponder this in your hearts, O people, and be not of those who have turned a deaf ear to the admonitions of Him Who is the Almighty, the All-Praised. Let the Breeze of God awaken you. Verily, it hath wafted over the world. Well is it with him that hath discovered the fragrance thereof and been accounted among the well-assured. – Baha’u’llah, Tablets of Baha’u’llah.

This station, by itself, makes the Baha’i Faith the youngest of the major world religions.

Baha’u’llah made a second and even more challenging claim. He declared he was the promised world messiah foretold in all the prophecies, in all the holy books, of all the religions of the world – the one promised to come on the Day of Judgment, the Day of God, the Time of the End, the End of the World, to establish the kingdom of God on Earth.

Baha’u’llah declared this period in history as the Day of God, the Time of the End. His mission is nothing less than the establishment of this glorious kingdom – the unification of the entire human race into an all-embracing, spiritually mature world civilization based upon divine principles of justice and love, and whose watchword will be unity in diversity.

With this second claim, Baha’is believe that all of the religions of the world have been consummated and fulfilled with the coming of Baha’u’llah.

https://bahaiteachings.org/what-did-bahaullah-teach?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Below is what Baha’u’llah wrote about the 'evidence' that establishes the truth of His claims. Baha’u’llah enjoined us to look at His own Self (His character), His Revelation (His mission and works, which can be seen in Baha'i history), and His words (His Writings).

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

His own Self is who He was, His character (His qualities). That can be determined by reading about Him in books such as the following: The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4

His Revelation is what He accomplished (His Mission on earth/ the history of His Cause)
That can be determined by reading about His mission in books such as the following:
God Passes By (1844-1944)
The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, which cover the 40 years of His Mission, from 1853-1892.

The words He hath revealed is what He wrote can be found in books that are posted online: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

No, I never claimed that Bahaullah's claims are true. I said I believe that His claims are true.

Never did I post Baha'u'llah's claims as truths, declaring that His claims are the evidence.

I guess the only way I can clear this up is to post the claims and the evidence that support the claims, so you can see the difference between claims and evidence.

Baha’u’llah’s Two Bold Claims

All of which leads us back to Baha’u’llah, who made two very bold claims. First, he declared he was God’s messenger for the next one thousand years, having the same divine authority, the same Holy Spirit, the same divine power, as Moses, Christ, Muhammad, and the other founders of the major world religions:

In the East the light of [God’s] Revelation hath broken; in the West have appeared the signs of His dominion. Ponder this in your hearts, O people, and be not of those who have turned a deaf ear to the admonitions of Him Who is the Almighty, the All-Praised. Let the Breeze of God awaken you. Verily, it hath wafted over the world. Well is it with him that hath discovered the fragrance thereof and been accounted among the well-assured. – Baha’u’llah, Tablets of Baha’u’llah.

This station, by itself, makes the Baha’i Faith the youngest of the major world religions.

Baha’u’llah made a second and even more challenging claim. He declared he was the promised world messiah foretold in all the prophecies, in all the holy books, of all the religions of the world – the one promised to come on the Day of Judgment, the Day of God, the Time of the End, the End of the World, to establish the kingdom of God on Earth.

Baha’u’llah declared this period in history as the Day of God, the Time of the End. His mission is nothing less than the establishment of this glorious kingdom – the unification of the entire human race into an all-embracing, spiritually mature world civilization based upon divine principles of justice and love, and whose watchword will be unity in diversity.

With this second claim, Baha’is believe that all of the religions of the world have been consummated and fulfilled with the coming of Baha’u’llah.

https://bahaiteachings.org/what-did-bahaullah-teach?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Below is what Baha’u’llah wrote about the 'evidence' that establishes the truth of His claims. Baha’u’llah enjoined us to look at His own Self (His character), His Revelation (His mission and works, which can be seen in Baha'i history), and His words (His Writings).

“Say: The first and foremost testimony establishing His truth is His own Self. Next to this testimony is His Revelation. For whoso faileth to recognize either the one or the other He hath established the words He hath revealed as proof of His reality and truth. This is, verily, an evidence of His tender mercy unto men. He hath endowed every soul with the capacity to recognize the signs of God. How could He, otherwise, have fulfilled His testimony unto men, if ye be of them that ponder His Cause in their hearts. He will never deal unjustly with any one, neither will He task a soul beyond its power. He, verily, is the Compassionate, the All-Merciful.” Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 105-106

His own Self is who He was, His character (His qualities). That can be determined by reading about Him in books such as the following: The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4

His Revelation is what He accomplished (His Mission on earth/ the history of His Cause)
That can be determined by reading about His mission in books such as the following:
God Passes By (1844-1944)
The Revelation of Bahá'u'lláh, Volumes 1-4, which cover the 40 years of His Mission, from 1853-1892.

The words He hath revealed is what He wrote can be found in books that are posted online: The Works of Bahá'u'lláh

If you only believe they are true, you don't need logic or evidence. You just believe.

 

[Trailblazer]

You are claiming that Baha'u'llah's claims are true.

No, I am not claiming they are true. I am saying I believe they are true.

 

[Trailblazer]

If you only believe they are true, you don't need logic or evidence. You just believe.

I need logic and evidence in order to believe.

 

[mikkel_the_dane]

No, I am not claiming they are true. I am saying I believe they are true.

Then you don't need evidence or logic. Have you claimed that?