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Atheists: What would be evidence of God’s existence?

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
That is not what jeolr posted. He said Abdul Baha believed in existence of Aether. When you can't answer, scoot.
^^^
Make up whatever you want. Great improvisation.

This has been answered in some detail by the Universal House of Justice. I am only posting this because it has become a discussion that needs this clarification.

People can choose to read it if they are so inclined to do so.

"With reference to your question about the “ether,” the various definitions of this word as
given in the Oxford English Dictionary all refer to a physical reality, for instance, “an
element,” “a substance,” “a medium,” all of which imply a physical and objective reality
and, as you say, this was the concept posited by nineteenth century scientists to explain
the propagation of light waves. It would have been understood in this sense by the
audiences whom ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá was addressing. However, in Chapter XVI of Some
Answered Questions, ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá devotes a whole chapter to explaining the difference
between things which are “perceptible to the senses” which He calls “objective or
sensible,” and realities of the “intellect” which have “no outward form and no place,” and
are “not perceptible to the senses.” He gives examples of both “kinds” of “human
knowledge.” The first kind is obvious and does not need elaboration. To illustrate the
second kind the examples He gives are: love, grief, happiness, the power of the intellect,
the human spirit and “ethereal matter.” (In the original Persian the word “ethereal” is the
same as “etheric.”) He states clearly that “Even ethereal matter, the forces of which are
said in physics to be heat, light, electricity and magnetism, is an intellectual reality, and is
not sensible.” In other words, the “ether” is a concept arrived at intellectually to explain
certain phenomena. In due course, when scientists failed to confirm the physical
existence of the “ether” by delicate experiments, they constructed other intellectual concepts to explain the same phenomena.
In considering the whole field of divinely conferred “infallibility” one must be careful to avoid the literal understanding and petty-mindedness that has so often characterized discussions of this matter in the Christian world. The Manifestation of God (and, to a lesser degree, ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá and Shoghi Effendi,) has to convey tremendous concepts covering the whole field of human life and
activity to people whose present knowledge and degree of understanding are far below His. He must use the limited medium of human language against the limited and often erroneous background of His audience’s traditional knowledge and current understanding to raise them to a wholly new level of awareness and behavior. It is a human tendency, against which the Manifestation warns us, to measure His statements against the inaccurate standard of the acquired knowledge of mankind. We tend to take them and place them within one or other of the
existing categories of human philosophy or science while, in reality, they transcend these and will, if properly understood, open new and vast horizons to our understanding."

Regards Tony
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Trailblazer: That is why he was sometimes wrong. His science was not from God since he never received a revelation from God.
TransmutingSoul: It is important to point out trailblazer that this is not correct under the Covenant given by Baha'u'llah.
Funny.

This has been answered in some detail by the Universal House of Justice. I am only posting this because it has become a discussion that needs this clarification.

People can choose to read it if they are so inclined to do so.

"With reference to your question about the “ether,” the various definitions of this word as
given in the Oxford English Dictionary all refer to a physical reality, for instance, “an
element,” “a substance,” “a medium,” all of which imply a physical and objective reality
and, as you say, this was the concept posited by nineteenth century scientists to explain
the propagation of light waves. It would have been understood in this sense by the
audiences whom ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá was addressing. However, in Chapter XVI of Some
Answered Questions, ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá devotes a whole chapter to explaining the difference
between things which are “perceptible to the senses” which He calls “objective or
sensible,” and realities of the “intellect” which have “no outward form and no place,” and
are “not perceptible to the senses.” He gives examples of both “kinds” of “human
knowledge.” The first kind is obvious and does not need elaboration. To illustrate the
second kind the examples He gives are: love, grief, happiness, the power of the intellect,
the human spirit and “ethereal matter.” (In the original Persian the word “ethereal” is the
same as “etheric.”) He states clearly that “Even ethereal matter, the forces of which are
said in physics to be heat, light, electricity and magnetism, is an intellectual reality, and is
not sensible.” In other words, the “ether” is a concept arrived at intellectually to explain
certain phenomena. In due course, when scientists failed to confirm the physical
existence of the “ether” by delicate experiments, they constructed other intellectual concepts to explain the same phenomena.
In considering the whole field of divinely conferred “infallibility” one must be careful to avoid the literal understanding and petty-mindedness that has so often characterized discussions of this matter in the Christian world. The Manifestation of God (and, to a lesser degree, ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá and Shoghi Effendi,) has to convey tremendous concepts covering the whole field of human life and
activity to people whose present knowledge and degree of understanding are far below His. He must use the limited medium of human language against the limited and often erroneous background of His audience’s traditional knowledge and current understanding to raise them to a wholly new level of awareness and behavior. It is a human tendency, against which the Manifestation warns us, to measure His statements against the inaccurate standard of the acquired knowledge of mankind. We tend to take them and place them within one or other of the
existing categories of human philosophy or science while, in reality, they transcend these and will, if properly understood, open new and vast horizons to our understanding."

Regards Tony

Answered in the quoted post.

Regards Tony
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
A notable case in point is the treatment of the subject of the evolution of species, which is taken up explicitly in Part 4, and which must be understood in light of several Bahá’í teachings, especially the principle of the harmony of science and religion. Religious belief should not contradict science and reason. A certain reading of some of the passages found in Chapters 46–51 may lead some believers to personal conclusions that contradict modern science. Yet the Universal House of Justice has explained that Bahá’ís strive to reconcile their understanding of the statements of ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá with established scientific perspectives, and therefore it is not necessary to conclude that these passages describe conceptions rejected by science, for example, a kind of “parallel” evolution that proposes a separate line of biological evolution for the human species parallel to the animal kingdom since the beginning of life on earth.

1 in these talks He emphasizes another capacity, a capacity for rational consciousness, that distinguishes man from the animal and that is not found in the animal kingdom or in nature itself. This unique capacity, an expression of the human spirit, is not a product of the evolutionary process, but exists potentially in creation. As ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá explains, “…since man was produced ten or a hundred thousand years ago from the same earthly elements, with the same measures and quantities, the same manner of composition and combination, and the same interactions with other beings—it follows that man was exactly the same then as exists now”. “And if a thousand million years hence,” He goes on to say, “the component elements of man are brought together, measured out in the same proportion, combined in the same manner, and subjected to the same interaction with other beings, exactly the same man will come into existence.”2 His essential argument, then, is not directed towards scientific findings but towards the materialist assertions that are built upon them. For Bahá’ís, the science of evolution is accepted, but the conclusion that humanity is merely an accidental branch of the animal kingdom—with all its attendant social implications—is not.
(Some Answered Questions)
www.bahai.org/r/552304545

The Master’s statements on evolution are subtle and complex and must be understood within the context of the entirety of the Bahá’í teachings, because His statements are both predicated upon and coherent with those teachings. In the passages found in Some Answered Questions, as well as in numerous other Tablets and talks, ‘Abdu’l‑Bahá elaborates upon the principle of the harmony of science and religion, observes that human beings and animals have in common the same physical nature, emphasizes that it is the mind and the soul that distinguish humanity, and rejects the idea that human beings are merely animals, a haphazard accident, and captives of nature trapped in the struggle for existence. In light of all such statements, it is possible for a Bahá’í to conclude that one can disagree with the materialistic philosophical interpretation of scientific findings—that man is merely an animal and a random expression of nature—without contesting the scientific findings themselves, such as those in genetics which are incompatible with a concept of “parallel” evolution.
(21 February 2016 – [To an individual])
www.bahai.org/r/537870506

That's just one I realize. I and others will address others. I disagree and most Baha'i disagree with what Trailblazer has said about 'Abdu'l-Baha and religion. There are also statements by Baha'u'llah that you state are incompatible with science, and we will address as best we can. I don't expect you to accept any of this, but I answer for the benefit for the others here. An attack must be answered.

Yes he made statements that are plain incorrect.

I have seen the above apologetics and I don't understand why you posted them?
It's just a bunch of wu-wu attached to evolution with zero proof. It says the same in the Jane Roberts Seth material she "channeled" from Seth. We get it, all these new-age groups feel humans are special (vitalism) and have this soul that is timeless and makes us extra great. This nonsense has been around at least since Hellenism and of course any attempt at claiming to be a messenger of God is going to include. What's missing is any facts that can lead us to new discoveries or further our understanding of any science. Even though science is so important to this theology his God forgot to give him anything that would advance our science and demonstrate that this could actually be a messenger of God.

Instead we get the same tired old vitalism and how special humans are because we have this soul, which is part of every wu-masters theology but suspiciously not one iota of new information. Of course right around the corner actual humans discovering fields, electromagnetism, special relativity, general relativity, quantum mechanics. Here we get......evolution is wrong because humans have ghosts inside them. Great thanks.



During the period of the Second Temple (c. 515 BC – 70 AD), the Hebrew people lived under the rule of first the Persian Achaemenid Empire, then the Greek kingdoms of the Diadochi, and finally the Roman Empire.[47] Their culture was profoundly influenced by those of the peoples who ruled them.[47] Consequently, their views on existence after death were profoundly shaped by the ideas of the Persians, Greeks, and Romans.[48][49] The idea of the immortality of the soul is derived from Greek philosophy[49] and the idea of the resurrection of the dead is derived from Persian cosmology.[49] By the early first century AD, these two seemingly incompatible ideas were often conflated by Hebrew thinkers.[49] The Hebrews also inherited from the Persians, Greeks, and Romans the idea that the human soul originates in the divine realm and seeks to return there.[47] The idea that a human soul belongs in Heaven and that Earth is merely a temporary abode in which the soul is tested to prove its worthiness became increasingly popular during the Hellenistic period (323 – 31 BC).[40] Gradually, some Hebrews began to adopt the idea of Heaven as the eternal home of the righteous dead.[40]


and rejects the idea that human beings are merely animals, a haphazard accident, and captives of nature trapped in the struggle for existence.

Yeah Conversations With God says this also. Unfortunately we have 99% of the same DNA, all of the instinctive behaviors, we do struggle and fall to diseases and the mortality rates being consistent show no deity is helping out. Prayer studies demonstrate it doesn't work and there has never been any evidence of a soul whatsoever. Raising humans above nature - Anthropocentrism is mainly from Judeo-Christian myths which this religion often borrows from unlike more natural theologies like American Indian myths which recognize us as part of the cycle of nature.
Anyways this ridiculous attempt to combine vitalism with evolution is as weak as any other man-made theology.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
We get it, all these new-age groups feel humans are special (vitalism) and have this soul that is timeless and makes us extra great.

We have the potential, not everyone will look for that potential.

What's missing is any facts that can lead us to new discoveries or further our understanding of any science.

What is missing is a unity of purpose in science and faith.

Regards Tony
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
It's interesting that in those days ether was considered to be a sensible thing by scientists but 'Abdu'l-Baha contradicted that said it was was not sensible. That is quite true if ether exists. A sensible ether was disproven. That's all I'll say right now. It's late here. 1:57 in the morning. Bed time for me.
HE said "aether differentiates between things that are "perceptible to the senses" and those which are "realities of the intellect" and not perceptible to the senses."

realities of the intellect include - heat, light and electricity and ethereal matter?
No ether separates those things from heat, electricity and light?

Funny how he has to wait until scientists figure it out. Never does he get a revelation that there is no ether but there is spacetime full of fields and virtual particles and light speed is constant in either direction (they measured light speed to test the ether). And light remains constant even when in motion because time slows down...........

You do realize these these papers you are quoting from are apologetics? People who are in the religion are taking things said and attempting to reconcile ways that they can still be correct. Or attempting to make them not wrong.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
I have read all those online quite a few times.

So you have nothing but internet cut and paste opinions, more than likely have not even studied in detail what has been offered, with what modern science actually knows.

Uh no in an older thread I read the book that addresses all the new science the prophet put forward and I wrote about each thing and pointed out all the problems. No one responded.
Rather than find the thread or re-read the book I'm using the quotes which has some of the mistakes.
I am fairly up on Quantum mechanics, both relativities, some cosmology and parts of quantum electrodynamics and other related theories.

If you wish let's say evolution and explore what is false, or if it is still unknown.

Regards Tony

Already addressed that. He added some wu-wu crap about humans have a soul and we are extra-special. Old hat new age stuff. Unproven. Then some members of the religion did their best to blend the concepts. No evolutionary biologist is going to get into "we are special because we have souls".
This is crank. Provide evidence of a soul.
Certainly a messenger of God would provide some evidence of a soul somehow? This one did not.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
Of course not.

So your opinion that God exists and Mr B is his messenger does not equate to "God exists and Mr B is his messenger" being a fact.

All you can do is saying, "It is my opinion that God exists and Mr B is his messenger," and I will completely agree with you. That is indeed an opinion you hold.
 

Tiberius

Well-Known Member
I am wrong intellectually is not the same as wrong in moral sense.
It is that same for say: Show me a cat versus show me that 1+1=11.

I'm not talking about about wrong in the moral sense. I see no reason to start arguing about that definition when it is not relevant to our discussion.
 

TransmutingSoul

One Planet, One People, Please!
Premium Member
Uh no in an older thread I read the book that addresses all the new science the prophet put forward and I wrote about each thing and pointed out all the problems. No one responded.
Rather than find the thread or re-read the book I'm using the quotes which has some of the mistakes.
I am fairly up on Quantum mechanics, both relativities, some cosmology and parts of quantum electrodynamics and other related theories.



Already addressed that. He added some wu-wu crap about humans have a soul and we are extra-special. Old hat new age stuff. Unproven. Then some members of the religion did their best to blend the concepts. No evolutionary biologist is going to get into "we are special because we have souls".
This is crank. Provide evidence of a soul.
Certainly a messenger of God would provide some evidence of a soul somehow? This one did not.

So no scientific refutation, only there is no evidence of a soul.

We know science has not proved there is no soul, in fact there is much yet to explain.

Regards Tony
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
We have the potential, not everyone will look for that potential.


Actually millions of people attempt all sorts of ESP. Millions of people practice meditation and attempt to achieve some ESP abilities. People often attempt to have out of body experiences and read a card with words on it to provide evidence. Hospitals have cards with pictures on them in operating rooms in case of an after death experience and they are brought back to life. Hundreds of millions of people attempt the law of attraction to manifest desires. Remote viewers, psychics, mediums, have all been tested and failed. James Randi offered 1 millions dollars for a demonstration of supernatural abilities. Everyone failed. Prayer studies show it works the same as random. Mortality rates for illness show exactly as predicted always. No deity is helping out.


What is missing is a unity of purpose in science and faith.

Regards Tony

science has the purpose to find out what is true. To create their best attempt at what is true. Faith is believing things with terrible evidence. Or being falsely told by others there is good evidence. When researched in a scientific way fundamentalists say "I don't believe atheist scholars", atheist scholars lie, atheist scholars are influenced by the devil, scholars are a cult and wrong.....it's like they want to be misled.
So science isn't interested in crank. Science will test any claims. The military tested Ingo Swan and others. They were defunded. Why? No results. Faith is just stories that are not real.
But the practicioners are not interested in finding that out.

Faith cannot demonstrate any type of actual truth or reality to it's claims. It's like saying we need a unity of purpose in science and cold reading. No we don't. Cold reading is a trick. There is nothing there for science to create a unity with. There are no dead relatives just tricks, hits, misses, manipulation, . Faith is just a fantasy for people to have something to believe in.
Science isn't interested in anything except evidence and demonstrating what is true.
Science has repeatable experiments any team in any country can do.
Faith is radically different even among the same religion. Then go to other faiths and it's not only completely different, the other faiths are completely wrong? Christians have faith you are either a heretic or misled by the devil. That is the same faith you use to decide your religion is true. Science has no use for this childish outdated belief system.
 

joelr

Well-Known Member
So no scientific refutation, only there is no evidence of a soul.

We know science has not proved there is no soul, in fact there is much yet to explain.

Regards Tony

An evolutionary biologist hasn't reviewed his words on evolution and I haven't read them either except for that clip.
The obvious science mistakes were covered in this thread. There are others in a past thread. No missing link will be found, elements will be transformed into other elements, cancer is contagious, I'd have to look others up
 

mikkel_the_dane

My own religion
Nothing comes next, as you weren't the intended recipient of my original question, and thus right now I don't care what your answer to it is.
Yeah feelings again.

Reality is what is real to you and since I do something, which is not real, I am not in reality! So where am I?
 

loverofhumanity

We are all the leaves of one tree
Premium Member
I was once an avowed atheist. Now, I just can’t fathom how people can miss the God factor in life. Every atom, every scientific law, mathematics, physics, nature, the human body all proclaim to me the most excellent Creator, God.

And when I ponder the Words of the Great Teachers such as Buddha, Jesus, Krishna and others, that God exists is so blindingly obvious to me, that I can only gather that through lack of use of spiritual abilities people have become spiritually blind.

My understanding is abilities atrophy when unused for long periods of time. Astronauts in space for long periods of weightlessness, on returning to earth need to retrain the body to function normally again.

In this age , when spirituality and God have become so unimportant, of course our spiritual abilities are not functioning correctly.

Think about what a slight head cold can do. One can place the most beautiful fragrance directly under the nostril but it won’t recognise it. And the eyelid. So thin, but close it just a fraction and we are blind.

The spiritual senses of humanity I believe, have caught cold and so cannot detect the most beautiful fragrance permeating in this age. Luckily I can breathe it and it’s wonderful.

My humble advice:

“Cleanse the rheum from out thine head and breathe the breath of God instead” (Baha’u’llah)
 
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