Atonement Theory

[Spice]

I think it goes without much disagreement that Christian concepts are a combination of Jewish and Greek religious traditions.

I think it also goes without much disagreement that the Romans used crucifixion as a ready means of carrying out death sentences.

So where does the "atonement of the cross" truly come? Remember Jesus was a practicing Jew who said: Go and learn what this means, 'I desire mercy, and not sacrifice.' For I came not to call the righteous, but sinners." Mt 9:13

Did it come from:

Jewish tradition, if I understand correctly, has the "scapegoat" sent to the demon Azazel on the Day of Atonement to carry their sins to be devoured. Then the goat would be sacrificed to God, bringing renewal to the people for another year.

Or:

In Greek tradition they have the magic of Pharmakos. During the Thargelia Festival of May or June, human sacrifices would be chosen, such as the man and woman of the village considered most ugly. Then these chosen would be fed very well during the feast, run through the streets while being slashed with reeds as sins are transfered to them, and finally run out to the wilderness to be stoned or left to die, taking the sins of the village with them -- for another year.

Why would a devout believer of Judaism that did not believe in human sacrifices, and did not want any sacrifice, be declared a sacrifice for the sins of all mankind?

Wasn't his true message in these words said to be spoken from the cross? "Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do."

AGAIN: mercy not sacrifice

Thoughts......

 

[dybmh]

So where does the "atonement of the cross" truly come?

It can be found here:

Psalm 51 + Isaiah 53 + Jeremiah 33 + Ezekiel 36​

​

ETA: The mark of cain. That connects it to the cross.​

 

[Spice]

It can be found here:

Psalm 51 + Isaiah 53 + Jeremiah 33 + Ezekiel 36​

​

ETA: The mark of cain. That connects it to the cross.​

I'm I understanding you correctly that you believe that a human sacrifice for the atonement of sins for all mankind IS aligned with the tenants of Judaism?

And do you believe the scriptures you've noted is proof for that belief?

And how is God's protection from murder that He gave to Cain, tied to the cross?

Maybe I take scripture too simply!

 

[christos]

The atonement most probably emerges in Jewish doctrine (600BC onwards)

It doesn’t seem to appear in the original Sumerian texts, (6500BC to 1950BC) where there doesn’t seem to be any original sin to atone for

Adam and Eve in the original Sumerian texts didn’t sin

Then going forward, the Gnostics (100 to 300AD) wrote that Christ was teaching about sin being a human construct



Correct me if Im wrong…

The Jews are very much law centred
Law and rules and behaviours are right at the centre of their practices

And so Jews also had/have the belief that God was/is an Almighty Judge of said laws, rules and behaviours (seems a natural line of thought, someone to enforce the law)

And so sin was right at the forefront also



So I may be jumping to a claim, that the atonement came from Jewish culture around law, judgement and sin

Whereas before this, in the earlier Sumerian texts, there appears to be no original sin



Then I have to also consider NDEs where virtually all state that God is not a judge, and so the entire atonement narrative FOR ME personally begins to fall apart slightly

 

[dybmh]

human sacrifice

No. It's the broken heart that is produced witnessing it in real time or reliving it vicariously in the heart and mind. Vicariously might look easy on paper, but it's not.

And how is God's protection from murder that He gave to Cain, tied to the cross?

Gen 4

ויאמר לו יהוה לכן כל־הרג קין שבעתים יקם וישם יהוה לקין אות לבלתי הכות־אתו כל־מצאו׃​

​

And the Lord said to him, Therefore whoever slays Cain, vengeance shall be taken on him sevenfold. And the Lord set a mark "אות" upon Cain, lest any finding him should kill him​

​

I'm happy to elaborate if there's interest.
.

Maybe I take scripture too simply!

Whatever you're doing, I think it's very refreshing.

 

[dybmh]

Adam and Eve in the original Sumerian texts didn’t sin

^^ Winner ^^

 

[dybmh]

The atonement most probably emerges in Jewish doctrine (600BC onwards)

Dating on any of the Hebrew ancient texts is no longer reliable. The DH is defunct. There is no Deutero-Isaiah to be used as a frame of reference.

 

[christos]

Dating on any of the Hebrew ancient texts is no longer reliable. The DH is defunct. There is no Deutero-Isaiah to be used as a frame of reference.

Ahhh OK I see
There’s some dating issues there is there

I’ll have to look that up

 

[dybmh]

Ahhh OK I see
There’s some dating issues there is there

It could be earlier, it could be later. The implications, though, imo, are important. It can no longer be rationally assumed that Judaism borrowed from the Persians. If you look at the avestas and their earlier iterations, those old assumptions get increasingly weaker.

 

[dybmh]

I’ll have to look that up

This is what popped up on a Google search. I remember it by the year, 2011. There's better articles, but this gives enough so you know what I'm talking about.

Software sheds light on Bible's various voices

Software developed by an Israeli team is giving intriguing new hints about what researchers believe to be the multiple hands that wrote the Bible. The new software analyzes style and word choices t…

www.heraldtribune.com

 

[Spice]

No. It's the broken heart that is produced witnessing it in real time or reliving it vicariously in the heart and mind. Vicariously might look easy on paper, but it's not.

But in Jewish tradition can Jesus's death on the cross in anyway stand for the purpose of Christian belief?

It's been my understanding that in Judaism, no one can be accountable for another's wrong, so the blood atonement of the cross cannot be accepted.

 

[dybmh]

But in Jewish tradition can Jesus's death on the cross in anyway stand for the purpose of Christian belief?

It's not the death. It's what occurs in the heart and mind of the Christian. That's what produces the atonement. Judaism has more than 1 way to atone. A broken and contrite heart is one of the most powerful. But, it cannot be employed repeatedly indefinitely.

Here is a good description of the technique in Chassidic song: Rabbi Zev's tears.

There is just one master key
that fits in every lock
and if you have that master key
you never have to knock
for with it you can open even the most inner part in the palace of the king

The master key is a broken heart ( Psalm 51 )
a master key that opens every lock
and since you have that master key
you didn't have to knock.

 

[Spice]

It's not the death. It's what occurs in the heart and mind of the Christian. That's what produces the atonement. Judaism has more than 1 way to atone. A broken and contrite heart is one of the most powerful. But, it cannot be employed repeatedly indefinitely.

Here is a good description of the technique in Chassidic song: Rabbi Zev's tears.

There is just one master key
that fits in every lock
and if you have that master key
you never have to knock
for with it you can open even the most inner part in the palace of the king

The master key is a broken heart ( Psalm 51 )
a master key that opens every lock
and since you have that master key
you didn't have to knock.

Got it! It's not the blood but the empathy in seeing it shed unselfishly. To THAT I can relate in spiritual feelings.

Can I see another's woe,
And not be in sorrow too?
Can I see another's grief,
And not seek for kind relief?
Wm. Blake

 

[dybmh]

empathy in seeing it shed unselfishly

In order to truly break the heart and truly be reborn, the vicarious experience must be profound. It's also known as "hitting rock bottom" if the experience is not vicarious.

 

[Spice]

In order to truly break the heart and truly be reborn, the vicarious experience must be profound. It's also known as "hitting rock bottom" if the experience is not vicarious.

Full surrender -- I know that one.