Attending the Ordinariate Liturgy

[Glaurung]

For some years now I have been attending Mass at the local Ordinariate parish. For those who don't know the Personal Ordinariate was instituted by Pope Benedict XVI for Anglicans who wish to enter the Catholic Church while maintaining their liturgical patrimony. The liturgy is similar to the Extraordinary Form but it is said out loud in a reverent English reminiscent of the King James Bible. To give an example, the Mass opens with:

Priest: Give sentence with me, O God, and defend my cause against the ungodly people; O deliver me from the deceitful and wicked man.

Ministers: For thou art the God of my strength; why hast thou put me from thee? and why go I so heavily, while the enemy oppresseth me?​

As much as I love Latin, Early Modern English has a gravitas and beauty of its own. I can almost smell the incense just by reading these opening lines. Albeit, I'm usually thurifer when I altar serve so that may have something to do with it.

I have often wondered if the traditionalist backlash would have been mitigated had the Vatican II liturgical reforms given us something closer to what we now have in the Ordinariate. It leaves the structure of the Tridentine Mass more or less untouched thus it maintains fidelity to the tradition. But being said out loud and in the vernacular it allows for much greater access and comprehension for the laity. I wouldn't even oppose a versus populum option for congregations that insist on it. Even though my preference remains for ad orientem. In any case what I love about this form of the liturgy is that it makes the tradition approachable without truncating it, which is probably my biggest complaint with the Ordinary Form as it currently exists. That even at its best it is still a truncation of what came before. And if there's one thing the modern world doesn't actually need it's truncated religion.

But my intent here isn't to gripe about the problems in the Church as I see them but to promote the Ordinarite liturgy as something that every Roman Rite Catholic should at least check out if it's accessible to them. It's a beautiful liturgy and it has been a tremendous blessing for my own faith.

 

[metis]

For some years now I have been attending Mass at the local Ordinariate parish. For those who don't know the Personal Ordinariate was instituted by Pope Benedict XVI for Anglicans who wish to enter the Catholic Church while maintaining their liturgical patrimony. The liturgy is similar to the Extraordinary Form but it is said out loud in a reverent English reminiscent of the King James Bible. To give an example, the Mass opens with:

Priest: Give sentence with me, O God, and defend my cause against the ungodly people; O deliver me from the deceitful and wicked man.

Ministers: For thou art the God of my strength; why hast thou put me from thee? and why go I so heavily, while the enemy oppresseth me?​

As much as I love Latin, Early Modern English has a gravitas and beauty of its own. I can almost smell the incense just by reading these opening lines. Albeit, I'm usually thurifer when I altar serve so that may have something to do with it.

I have often wondered if the traditionalist backlash would have been mitigated had the Vatican II liturgical reforms given us something closer to what we now have in the Ordinariate. It leaves the structure of the Tridentine Mass more or less untouched thus it maintains fidelity to the tradition. But being said out loud and in the vernacular it allows for much greater access and comprehension for the laity. I wouldn't even oppose a versus populum option for congregations that insist on it. Even though my preference remains for ad orientem. In any case what I love about this form of the liturgy is that it makes the tradition approachable without truncating it, which is probably my biggest complaint with the Ordinary Form as it currently exists. That even at its best it is still a truncation of what came before. And if there's one thing the modern world doesn't actually need it's truncated religion.

But my intent here isn't to gripe about the problems in the Church as I see them but to promote the Ordinarite liturgy as something that every Roman Rite Catholic should at least check out if its accessible to them. It's a beautiful liturgy and it has been a tremendous blessing for my own faith.

Well said, imo.

 

[exchemist]

For some years now I have been attending Mass at the local Ordinariate parish. For those who don't know the Personal Ordinariate was instituted by Pope Benedict XVI for Anglicans who wish to enter the Catholic Church while maintaining their liturgical patrimony. The liturgy is similar to the Extraordinary Form but it is said out loud in a reverent English reminiscent of the King James Bible. To give an example, the Mass opens with:

Priest: Give sentence with me, O God, and defend my cause against the ungodly people; O deliver me from the deceitful and wicked man.

Ministers: For thou art the God of my strength; why hast thou put me from thee? and why go I so heavily, while the enemy oppresseth me?​

As much as I love Latin, Early Modern English has a gravitas and beauty of its own. I can almost smell the incense just by reading these opening lines. Albeit, I'm usually thurifer when I altar serve so that may have something to do with it.

I have often wondered if the traditionalist backlash would have been mitigated had the Vatican II liturgical reforms given us something closer to what we now have in the Ordinariate. It leaves the structure of the Tridentine Mass more or less untouched thus it maintains fidelity to the tradition. But being said out loud and in the vernacular it allows for much greater access and comprehension for the laity. I wouldn't even oppose a versus populum option for congregations that insist on it. Even though my preference remains for ad orientem. In any case what I love about this form of the liturgy is that it makes the tradition approachable without truncating it, which is probably my biggest complaint with the Ordinary Form as it currently exists. That even at its best it is still a truncation of what came before. And if there's one thing the modern world doesn't actually need it's truncated religion.

But my intent here isn't to gripe about the problems in the Church as I see them but to promote the Ordinarite liturgy as something that every Roman Rite Catholic should at least check out if its accessible to them. It's a beautiful liturgy and it has been a tremendous blessing for my own faith.

Don't they also have Evensong? I recall when we had an Ordinariate priest in our parish for a while he instituted it. I used to enjoy it very much.

 

[Estro Felino]

Pope Benedict is great.
He is a gift from God.
His was an excellent idea about Anglican liturgy.

After all...not even Italians use Latin liturgy. Modern languages are beautiful. Latin is the past...

 

[metis]

After all...not even Italians use Latin liturgy.

The first mass I ever went to, which is when I was a sophomore in college, was in Latin, and I was there with a beautiful Italian woman. Seriously, I really enjoyed the Latin mass, but it made sense to leave that language and go with the regional language.

BTW, even though I didn't end up marrying that beautiful woman, she changed my life in ways I never could have anticipated, and two years later I ran across another Italian [Sicilian] woman that I ended up marrying. Those Italian women are so sweet and sexy, but I can't say the same for the Italian men!

 

[pearl]

For those of us, like me, who are unfamiliar with this Liturgy;
Vatican releases liturgical texts for ordinariate use in matrimony, funerals (catholicnewsagency.com)

 

[metis]

For those of us, like me, who are unfamiliar with this Liturgy;
Vatican releases liturgical texts for ordinariate use in matrimony, funerals (catholicnewsagency.com)

The theologian Paul Johnson refers to himself as being an Anglo-Catholic, and I've read two of his books-- one on Catholicism and the other on Judaism.

 

[pearl]

I understand that some branches of Anglicans joined the Catholic church because those were becoming too liberal.

Five Anglican bishops resign to become Catholics - YouTube

 

[Glaurung]

Don't they also have Evensong? I recall when we had an Ordinariate priest in our parish for a while he instituted it. I used to enjoy it very much.

I would not be surprised if some parishes do.

After all...not even Italians use Latin liturgy. Modern languages are beautiful. Latin is the past...

I disagree with the notion that Latin should be left to the past. In my perfect world every parish (or at least diocese) would offer both the Ordinary and Extraordinary forms with every priest trained in both. Further, in my perfect world the Ordinary Form would be much closer in resemblance to the Ordinariate Mass. I would also get rid of the silly three year lectionary cycle which IMO has convoluted things for no real gain.

 

[exchemist]

I would not be surprised if some parishes do.


I disagree with the notion that Latin should be left to the past. In my perfect world every parish (or at least diocese) would offer both the Ordinary and Extraordinary forms with every priest trained in both. Further, in my perfect world the Ordinary Form would be much closer in resemblance to the Ordinariate Mass. I would also get rid of the silly three year lectionary cycle which IMO has convoluted things for no real gain.

Agree about the Latin mass. It is useful when you can’t follow the local language, e.g. when we lived in the Netherlands. But the 3yr cycle exposes us to more bible passages, which seems a good thing to me.

 

[Glaurung]

Agree about the Latin mass. It is useful when you can’t follow the local language, e.g. when we lived in the Netherlands. But the 3yr cycle exposes us to more bible passages, which seems a good thing to me.

If the only consideration is exposure to scripture then that would be true. But I don't see it that way. The benefit of a yearly cycle is that over time you will associate each Sunday with a particular reading. Each Sunday will have its theme. Thus you cannot help but memorize the readings as a year is a very human time frame. No one lives by a three year cycle. In my view the three year cycle is an abstraction justified by a reductive notion that a greater quantity of scripture is automatically better for liturgical purposes. But is it? Do you really think the average Catholic is any more familiar with scripture now than they were before? I doubt it.

 

[Estro Felino]

The first mass I ever went to, which is when I was a sophomore in college, was in Latin, and I was there with a beautiful Italian woman. Seriously, I really enjoyed the Latin mass, but it made sense to leave that language and go with the regional language.

Well...I do think that Catholicism has no official language.
We Italians ourselves consider the Vatican a foreign country. We, being Italians love the Our Father in Italian. And not in Latin.
As the French should love it in French.

 

[Estro Felino]

I disagree with the notion that Latin should be left to the past. In my perfect world every parish (or at least diocese) would offer both the Ordinary and Extraordinary forms with every priest trained in both. Further, in my perfect world the Ordinary Form would be much closer in resemblance to the Ordinariate Mass. I would also get rid of the silly three year lectionary cycle which IMO has convoluted things for no real gain.

Latin is used in the Vatican only. The Mass has to be understood by the community . By the parish.
So the liturgy must be in English, in Italian, French...depending on the country.
Not in Latin.
The Vulgata has no special theological value. The KJV is as valuable as the Vulgata.

 

[Quiddity]

Latin is used in the Vatican only. The Mass has to be understood by the community . By the parish.
So the liturgy must be in English, in Italian, French...depending on the country.
Not in Latin.
The Vulgata has no special theological value. The KJV is as valuable as the Vulgata.

Extraordinary Form Masses (where you mostly find Latin) have been the bulk of the growth in the US for some years now; In terms of percentage. In my area alone, you can find 4 parishes that do the majority of the liturgy in Latin (except the homily). There are now hundreds across the US. SSPX, FSSP, ICKSP, and other priestly societies offer it as well. My own children do their prayers in Latin, English, Spanish and will be working on Aramaic next. I note this only to show that I find tremendous value in language. Being bilingual at an early age, I found it extremely helpful. I'm not saying anything innovative here, but what is of interest to this particular topic is that some languages allow for creativity much easier. Which, under normal circumstances may not be a problem; but in the liturgy, it most certainly can be.

The synergy of Lex orandi, lex credendi isn't just important because some old white men in Rome are stuck in their old patriarchal ways; there is a rich tradition that is tied to a litany of theological constructs (I use constructs lightly here) that form people.

On other hand, some of my more traditionalists brothers and sisters seem to forget that the liturgy is not just for the proper worship of God, but also to compel and incline us to graces. A quick example is, let’s say if someone cannot but start daydreaming or mind-wandering if not engaged verbally or auditorily (as is more common in the ancient rite), is a moment of silence that conducive to him? Or will he pray better in a different context? And these acts are important in forming and disposing one to grace, which is precisely what we hold the ancient Roman rite does better. This is why the traditionalists must be precise and vigilant in qualifying what is meant by the ancient rite doing this better. The difference is an accidental superiority and not an essential one. The traditionalist not trained in thomistic thought will not bother to mention this, and even more, important is he is likely ignorant in trying to explain what the essential difference is. I don't say that to be crass or rude but once you get that deep in the weeds it takes a great amount of care that only high-level academics in science and other fields take the time. In that regard, I barely crack legally competent myself, but I care enough to read things a gazillion times.

 

[Estro Felino]

Extraordinary Form Masses (where you mostly find Latin) have been the bulk of the growth in the US for some years now; In terms of percentage. In my area alone, you can find 4 parishes that do the majority of the liturgy in Latin (except the homily). There are now hundreds across the US. SSPX, FSSP, ICKSP, and other priestly societies offer it as well. My own children do their prayers in Latin, English, Spanish and will be working on Aramaic next. I note this only to show that I find tremendous value in language. Being bilingual at an early age, I found it extremely helpful. I'm not saying anything innovative here, but what is of interest to this particular topic is that some languages allow for creativity much easier. Which, under normal circumstances may not be a problem; but in the liturgy, it most certainly can be.

The synergy of Lex orandi, lex credendi isn't just important because some old white men in Rome are stuck in their old patriarchal ways; there is a rich tradition that is tied to a litany of theological constructs (I use constructs lightly here) that form people.

On other hand, some of my more traditionalists brothers and sisters seem to forget that the liturgy is not just for the proper worship of God, but also to compel and incline us to graces. A quick example is, let’s say if someone cannot but start daydreaming or mind-wandering if not engaged verbally or auditorily (as is more common in the ancient rite), is a moment of silence that conducive to him? Or will he pray better in a different context? And these acts are important in forming and disposing one to grace, which is precisely what we hold the ancient Roman rite does better. This is why the traditionalists must be precise and vigilant in qualifying what is meant by the ancient rite doing this better. The difference is an accidental superiority and not an essential one. The traditionalist not trained in thomistic thought will not bother to mention this, and even more, important is he is likely ignorant in trying to explain what the essential difference is. I don't say that to be crass or rude but once you get that deep in the weeds it takes a great amount of care that only high-level academics in science and other fields take the time. In that regard, I barely crack legally competent myself, but I care enough to read things a gazillion times.

Ok...but you are speaking with an Italian person.
My father is very Roman so I surely love Romanness (la romanità) made of tradition, history, culture...etc.
But I have never said any prayer in Latin . Only in Italian...sometimes in English...and once in Croatian.
I think there is nothing special about the Pater Noster. Saying the Our Father in English is better because one means those when he recites them.
Sanctificetur nomen tuum is not different than Hallowed be thy name.
They are exactly the same words.

 

[Quiddity]

Ok...but you are speaking with an Italian person.
My father is very Roman so I surely love Romanness (la romanità) made of tradition, history, culture...etc.
But I have never said any prayer in Latin . Only in Italian...sometimes in English...and once in Croatian.
I think there is nothing special about the Pater Noster. Saying the Our Father in English is better because one means those when he recites them.
Sanctificetur nomen tuum is not different than Hallowed be thy name.
They are exactly thr same words.

Yet you prefer one above the other.

 

[exchemist]

Ok...but you are speaking with an Italian person.
My father is very Roman so I surely love Romanness (la romanità) made of tradition, history, culture...etc.
But I have never said any prayer in Latin . Only in Italian...sometimes in English...and once in Croatian.
I think there is nothing special about the Pater Noster. Saying the Our Father in English is better because one means those when he recites them.
Sanctificetur nomen tuum is not different than Hallowed be thy name.
They are exactly thr same words.

And so is uw naam worde geheiligd.

But that was no help to me in The Hague. So I was relieved to be able to attend the 11 am Latin Sung Mass every Sunday at Sint Jacobus de Meerdere, the parish church. I know the Latin quite well so this made me feel at home, even though I spoke no Dutch. I think that in today's interconnected world a few Latin masses are quite helpful to people away from home.

It was a lovely church, by the way, with excellent singing - both Gregorian chant and SATB mass settings:-

and with a very kind parish priest - with a good singing voice: Ad van der Helm - Wikipedia

I shall always remember my time there with affection, as it taught me a lot about singing Gregorian chant and I even was able to teach myself to read neumes, from the printed scores of the chant in the mass books. I also used to take my tiny son off to a side aisle during the sermon (which of course was in Dutch), to read him illustrated bible stories. Happy times.