Attention, Trump Supporters

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Of all the Trump voters I personally know, not one
expressed any desire to see President Pence.
But a few anti-Trumpers have favored him.
That was a surprise.

They both support horrible policies, but at least Pence has enough knowledge and experience to avoid Trump’s biggest gaffes, or to just blindly do obviously unconstitutional things that will be reined in by the courts later.

He also doesn’t seem as easily swayed and manipulated. I think that Pence’s positions and focus are generally the same after watching Fox & Friends as before.

Also, a Pence who gets the presidency through the impeachment of Trump would know that impeachment is a real possibility for him, too, if he steps too far out of line. Hopefully that would also limit his damage a bit.

 

[Revoltingest]

They both support horrible policies, but at least Pence has enough knowledge and experience to avoid Trump’s biggest gaffes, or to just blindly do obviously unconstitutional things that will be reined in by the courts later.

He also doesn’t seem as easily swayed and manipulated. I think that Pence’s positions and focus are generally the same after watching Fox & Friends as before.

Also, a Pence who gets the presidency through the impeachment of Trump would know that impeachment is a real possibility for him, too, if he steps too far out of line. Hopefully that would also limit his damage a bit.

And a more theocratic Supreme Court doesn't bother you?
How is Trump acting unconstitutionally compared to other presidents, eg, Clinton, Nixon, Reagan?
If Trump isn't all that different, then it's unrealistic to believe Pence would be better.

Here's something you might find interesting, since it's a left leaning source....
The Danger of President Pence
To excerpt just a few morally & constitutionally questionable portions....

Marc Short, the head of legislative affairs in the Trump White House, credits Pence for the Kochs’ rapprochement with Trump. “The Kochs were very excited about the Vice-Presidential pick,” Short told me. “There are areas where they differ from the Administration, but now there are many areas they’re partnering with us on.” Senator Sheldon Whitehouse, a Democrat from Rhode Island, who has accused the Kochs of buying undue influence, particularly on environmental policy—Koch Industries has a long history of pollution—is less enthusiastic about their alliance with Pence. “If Pence were to become President for any reason, the government would be run by the Koch brothers—period. He’s been their tool for years,” he said. Bannon is equally alarmed at the prospect of a Pence Presidency. He told me, “I’m concerned he’d be a President that the Kochs would own.”

..... a caucus of far-right congressional members, which Pence eventually led. Weyrich condemned homosexuality, feminism, abortion, and government-imposed racial integration, and he partnered with some controversial figures, including Laszlo Pasztor, a former member of a pro-Nazi party in Hungary. When Weyrich died, in 2008, Pence praised him as a “friend and mentor” and a “founding father of the modern conservative movement,” from whom he had “benefitted immeasurably.”

In the spring of 2015, Pence signed a bill called the Religious Freedom Restoration Act, which he presented as innocuous. “He said it protected religious freedom, and who’s against that?” Oesterle recalled. But then a photograph of the closed signing session surfaced. It showed Pence surrounded by monks and nuns, along with three of the most virulently anti-gay activists in the state. The image went viral. Indiana residents began examining the law more closely, and discovered that it essentially legalized discrimination against homosexuals by businesses in the state.

Do you really want a more competent & effective President pursuing those agendas?
And if, as you say, he's less easily swayed, he'll likely be on course to implement
his vision of a fundamentalist Christian government. So you support banning abortion,
banning gay marriage, partnering with Nazis (per the New Yorker), teaching creationism
in public schools, etc, etc.
I am shocked, I tell you....shocked!

 

[fantome profane]

How is Trump acting unconstitutionally compared to other presidents, eg, Clinton, Nixon, Reagan?

I don’t remember Clinton screaming witch hunt every day during his investigation (and he had more cause to do so in my opinion). He did not fire the head of the FBI in order to stop an investigation into himself. He did not threaten to fire the attorney general. He did not interfere with witnesses ny floating the idea of pardons.

Little things like that.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

And a more theocratic Supreme Court doesn't bother you?

That risk is common to both options.

How is Trump acting unconstitutionally compared to other presidents, eg, Clinton, Nixon, Reagan?
If Trump isn't all that different, then it's unrealistic to believe Pence would be better.

The one that's most unique to Trump is the way he's decided to ignore the foreign and domestic emoluments clauses.

Past presidents have gone to great lengths to get rid of conflicts of interest. Carter even famously sold off the farm that had been in his family for generations to avoid even the appearance of a domestic conflict of interest. Trump, OTOH, has no issue with being enriched by the funds of foreign governments.

Then there was Muslim Ban #1: I think Pence would have realized that it would have been overturned, so he wouldn't have thrown travel into short-term chaos the way Trump did.

The rest of it probably isn't completely unique to Trump, but Trump merely takes it to unprecedented levels. If you care about how Trump is violating the constitution - though I'm not sure you do - you can find a legal analysis on the ACLU web site: Donald Trump: A One-Man Constitutional Crisis

Here's something you might find interesting, since it's a left leaning source....
The Danger of President Pence
To excerpt just a few morally & constitutionally questionable portions....



Do you really want a more competent & effective President pursuing those agendas?
And if, as you say, he's less easily swayed, he'll likely be on course to implement
his vision of a fundamentalist Christian government.

I think Trump's on that course, too.

Trump's not the only odious person in his administration, but unless you can come up with a better option, taking that administration down is probably going to have to be a one-person-at-a-time thing... at least until 2020.

Also, keep in mind that a congress and senate that would impeach and remove Trump would also make Pence a lame-duck president.

The Republicans under Obama demonstrated that the Senate can delay Supreme Court appointments until the next administration, so the risk of a theocratic Supreme Court can be mitigated, too... provided the voters are on board with the idea at the mid-term election.

If we take a Democrat-controlled House and Senate as a given - and if impeachment is a realistic option, we are - then the choice is between a lame-duck Trump and a lame-duck Pence. Either one would have their power severely curtailed, but I think Pence is less likely to try to spark a trade war (or more of a trade war than Trump already has going) or stage some sort of coup to seize more power.

So you support banning abortion,
banning gay marriage, partnering with Nazis (per the New Yorker), etc, etc.

The fact that you can't come to terms with your support of Trump is no reason to embarrass yourself even more.

 

[Revoltingest]

I don’t remember Clinton screaming witch hunt every day during his investigation (and he had more cause to do so in my opinion). He did not fire the head of the FBI in order to stop an investigation into himself. He did not threaten to fire the attorney general. He did not interfere with witnesses ny floating the idea of pardons.

Little things like that.

But Clinton wanted to curb the 6th Amendment right to a jury trial (Petty Offense Doctrine),
to eliminate the warrant requirement for searches in public housing, to expand the Interstate
Commerce Clause to curb gun rights, to imprison vastly more people under his 3 strikes law,
& opposed gay marriage (which the USSC later ruled is a constitutional right).
He was far far worse than Trump regarding civil liberties.

 

[Revoltingest]

The fact that you can't come to terms with your support of Trump is no reason to embarrass yourself even more.

I'm rather surprised that you're such a fervent Pence supporter, given
his agenda of turning the clock back on so many civil liberty issues.
And you expect me to be embarrassed for opposing that?
I take pride in opposing theocracy. Keep Pence away from SCOTUS.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'm rather surprised that you're a Pence supporter, given his
agenda of turning the clock back on so many civil liberty issues.
And you expect me to be embarrassed for opposing that?
I take pride in opposing theocracy.

Since you seem to still be having trouble with the concepts here:

- voting for Trump is direct support for Trump.
- supporting the removal of Trump is not support for Pence.

 

[Revoltingest]

Since you seem to still be having trouble with the concepts here:

What I have trouble with is your support for Pence.
Your advocating for him & his agenda is repulsive.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What I have trouble with is your support for Pence.
Your advocating for him & his agenda is repulsive.

If you're going to keep on going with this game, it's time for you to say what you think "support" means.

 

[Revoltingest]

If you're going to keep on going with this game, it's time for you to say what you think "support" means.

I'm just playing by the rules of your game.
If I'm a "Trump supporter" cuz I preferred him over Hillary,
then you're a "Pence supporter" cuz you prefer him to Trump.
Moreover, you've actually listed reasons why you think
Pence would be a good President. So you're a bigger
booster of your guy than I am of my supposed guy.

There's a way out of this embarrassment for you....
Stop mischievously calling people "Trump supporter",
& return to just discussing issues.

 

[jonathan180iq]

I'd like to see the Conversatives in this thread make a list of things Trump has done poorly.
I'd also like to see the Progressives make a list of things Trump has done well.

Classic Debate 101 - Argue for the position of your adversary.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

I'm just playing by the rules of your game.
If I'm a "Trump supporter" cuz I preferred him over Hillary,
then you're a "Pence supporter" cuz you prefer him to Trump.

The thing that makes you a Trump supporter is that you voted for Trump, not your preference of her over Hilary.

Small words to help you understand:

- a vote for Trump is support.
- giving money to Trump is support.
- volunteering for Trump is support.
- putting up a Trump lawn sign is support.
- a Trump bumper sticker is support.
- wearing a Trump hat is support.

Anyone who does any of these things has supported Trump.

Moreover, you've actually listed reasons why you think
Pence would be a good President. So you're a bigger
booster of your guy than I am of my supposed guy.

"Better than Trump" <> "good president"

And I've about had it with your hypocrisy and trolling.

 

[Revoltingest]

And I've about had it with your hypocrisy and trolling.

Interesting that you can get away with using the "t" word, while I cannot.
It's a bad idea for you to accuse anyone of hypocrisy...particularly since
you support Pence even more than I support Trump.

If you could stick to discussing issues instead of making it
about personal animus, you likely wouldn't feel such frustration.

 

[fantome profane]

I'm just playing by the rules of your game.
If I'm a "Trump supporter" cuz I preferred him over Hillary,
then you're a "Pence supporter" cuz you prefer him to Trump.
Moreover, you've actually listed reasons why you think
Pence would be a good President. So you're a bigger
booster of your guy than I am of my supposed guy.

There's a way out of this embarrassment for you....
Stop mischievously calling people "Trump supporter",
& return to just discussing issues.

The fact is that a vote for Trump is more concrete support for Trump than the combined babbling of all RF posters combined. I understand that it was reluctant support. I understand that it does not mean you agree with everything Trump has said or done. I understand that it does not mean that you agree with all other Trump supporters. But you did give your support to Trump in a very real and concrete manner.

 

[Revoltingest]

The fact is that a vote for Trump is more concrete support for Trump than the combined babbling of all RF posters combined. I understand that it was reluctant support. I understand that it does not mean you agree with everything Trump has said or done. I understand that it does not mean that you agree with all other Trump supporters. But you did give your support to Trump in a very real and concrete manner.

All I did was vote for Trump. But you defend eschewing the accurate
"Trump voter" in favor of "Trump supporter". Moreover, you appear
to agree that our friend is a "Pence supporter", only disagreeing
about relative power.

What I see on RF is grouping us all together in the "Trump supporter" camp,
& then painting us all as family separating, Constitution trashing, racist,
uneducated, southern, rural, dentally challenged, Nazis.
Then unleash a plethora of threads which do nothing but bash us,
while ignoring important issues. One vaunted long time member
even proudly proclaims he won't engage in civil discussion with us.
Do you approve of this?
Where do you stand on Pence v Trump preference?

The election offered us only 2 candidates with any chance of winning.
I picked the lesser of 2 evils.
Do you suggest that I should've abstained, voted for a guaranteed loser
like Sanders, or vote for the greater of 2 evils?

 

[fantome profane]

All I did was vote for Trump. But you defend eschewing the accurate
"Trump voter" in favor of "Trump supporter". Moreover, you appear
to agree that our friend is a "Pence supporter", only disagreeing
about relative power.

What I see on RF is grouping us all together in the "Trump supporter" camp,
& then painting us all as family separating, Constitution trashing, racist,
uneducated, southern, rural, dentally challenged, Nazis.
Then unleash a plethora of threads which do nothing but bash us,
while ignoring important issues. One vaunted long time member
even proudly proclaims he won't engage in civil discussion with us.
Do you approve of this?
Where do you stand on Pence v Trump preference?

The election offered us only 2 candidates with any chance of winning.
I picked the lesser of 2 evils.
Do you suggest that I should've abstained, voted for a guaranteed loser
like Sanders, or vote for the greater of 2 evils?

I will repeat what I said. I understand that your vote for Trump does not mean that you agree with everything he has said and done. And I understand that it does not mean you are the same as ever other Trump voter. Not all Trump voters are the same.

But voting for somebody is giving them your support. In a much more significant way than just talking about it.

And if our mostly sphenisciform friend feels that Pence if preferable to Trump, I agree.

 

[Revoltingest]

I will repeat what I said. I understand that your vote for Trump does not mean that you agree with everything he has said and done. And I understand that it does not mean you are the same as ever other Trump voter. Not all Trump voters are the same.

But voting for somebody is giving them your support. In a much more significant way than just talking about it.

And if our mostly sphenisciform friend feels that Pence if preferable to Trump, I agree.

Then here we are.....
I'm a Trump supporter.
You're a Pence supporter.
The penguin is a Pence supporter.

What does it achieve to wield these labels?
(For me, it's a device to point out mischief.)

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

What I see on RF is grouping us all together in the "Trump supporter" camp,
& then painting us all as family separating, Constitution trashing, racist,
uneducated, southern, rural, dentally challenged, Nazis.

Actually:

- I'd say you've been kinda cagey on the "family separating" issue. I haven't decided which way you go on that one.

- you have brushed off Trump's constitutional violations when they're brought up. I'd say "Constitution trashing" is at the hyperbolic end of fair.

- racist? Don't know.

- uneducated? Probably not. You say you're an engineer, so if that's not a lie, you've probably got a least an bachelor's.

- southern? You've said you live in Michigan, so hardly.

- rural and dentally challenged? I have no idea.

- Nazi? No, but it sure seems that being in league with Nazis isn't a deal-breaker for you.

 

[Revoltingest]

Actually:

I've been quite explicit.
Perhaps you just didn't notice, eh.
You could've politely asked.
Or you're caught up in your own mischievous inferences?
I oppose the family separation policies of both Obama & Trump.

But one could say you've been "cagey" about what should
be done to achieve reasonable border security. You voiced no
objections when Obama separated families, but now it's a problem.
What's your solution?
Just in case I missed it (so many posts to read), I invite you to speak up.

- I'd say you've been kinda cagey on the "family separating" issue.

See above.
I suggest reading read more thoroughly before accusing anyone of being "cagey".
You could avoid such embarrassment.

I haven't decided which way you go on that one.

- you have brushed off Trump's constitutional violations when they're brought up. I'd say "Constitution trashing" is at the hyperbolic end of fair.

Which constitutional violations have I "brushed off"?

- uneducated? Probably not. You say you're an engineer, so if that's not a lie, you've probably got a least an bachelor's.

You're so generous with...."if that's not a lie".
When I questioned your being an engineer...let's just say the reaction was swift & formal.
The word, "hypocrisy", comes to mind.

- southern? You've said you live in Michigan, so hardly.

A great many posters here have dissed Trump supporters as southern.
My post you quoted was general, & not just about you.

- rural and dentally challenged? I have no idea.

Did you miss Popeye's picture before it was poofed by moderators?

- Nazi? No, but it sure seems that being in league with Nazis isn't a deal-breaker for you.

There you go.
Running with the histrionic anti-Trump crowd, making wild
accusations which discourage discussion of actual policy.
If I implied you were a Nazi, would this be permitted?
Find more in your heart than hate.

 

[fantome profane]

What does it achieve to wield these labels?
(For me, it's a device to point out mischief.)

I take responsibility for my words and my actions. That is what is achieved.