Attributing Events to your Deities

[Quintessence]

Another thread currently going on in this space got me thinking about the following question (aimed at our resident theists):

When do you attribute something that happens to a deity? What is it that makes you go "yes, this person is inspired by Hepaistos" or "yes, this is Yaweh's blessing?"

Is it tough to put your finger on it? Do you wrestle with the possibility that you might be wrong to attribute something to one of your deities?
​

By extension, when we attribute things to our deities, at least internally we would regard this as proof of our deities. This is one of the reasons I am finding this question rather interesting. How do you answer it?

[Oh, and here's the semi-obligatory reminder that I put this in interfaith discussion, so if you want to debate aspects of this topic, please kick up a thread in another spot. Thanks!]

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

My two cents worth--while noting that I am an animist and agnostic about gods or God...

The universe is Very Very Big and I am Very Very Small, just a little guy in the large and wondrous cosmos. When I attribute action to some spirit, it's because I see the spirit and its interaction with me. Of course I can be mistaken.

But that is why I also am agnostic about deities. Yes, I perceive/believe that there are large spirits/things that could be called deity. For example, there could be a God of Storms, but all I ever see is one storm at a time, which are at best small extensions of a purported larger deity. At the same time, I see that storms occur on a fairly regular basis...so there could be a Storm God.

But since I'm just a little guy in a great big universe, and I could be mistaken in my perceptions of the cosmos and my conceptions about it all, I'd rather just attribute those things that are beyond me to The Great Mystery.

 

[suncowiam]

My two cents worth--while noting that I am an animist and agnostic about gods or God...

The universe is Very Very Big and I am Very Very Small, just a little guy in the large and wondrous cosmos. When I attribute action to some spirit, it's because I see the spirit and its interaction with me. Of course I can be mistaken.

But that is why I also am agnostic about deities. Yes, I perceive/believe that there are large spirits/things that could be called deity. For example, there could be a God of Storms, but all I ever see is one storm at a time, which are at best small extensions of a purported larger deity. At the same time, I see that storms occur on a fairly regular basis...so there could be a Storm God.

But since I'm just a little guy in a great big universe, and I could be mistaken in my perceptions of the cosmos and my conceptions about it all, I'd rather just attribute those things that are beyond me to The Great Mystery.

Interesting view point.

Are you just saying that we might be imagining events that, as emotional human beings, are desirably grand, but turns out to be nothing? Especially that we are considered dust in the whole scheme of the universe?

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Interesting view point.

Are you just saying that we might be imagining events that, as emotional human beings, are desirably grand, but turns out to be nothing? Especially that we are considered dust in the whole scheme of the universe?

well, we might...but also, there's a good chance that we (individually or collectively) will never know whether or not it is really nothing...or really something.

 

[suncowiam]

well, we might...but also, there's a good chance that we (individually or collectively) will never know whether or not it is really nothing...or really something.

Is there a good chance? How does one even equate that?

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

Is there a good chance? How does one even equate that?

I'm sorry; equate what? To me, a "good chance" in this context means greater than zero, but nowhere near 100 percent--although I wouldn't be too awfully surprised if it were. I don't try to pin it down more than that because I doubt humans are now or ever will be able to know. Certainly, I don't know.

 

[Quintessence]

I'm a little surprised there isn't more interest in this topic. Was looking forward to hearing stories from various religious groups.

 

[syo]

Another thread currently going on in this space got me thinking about the following question (aimed at our resident theists):

When do you attribute something that happens to a deity? What is it that makes you go "yes, this person is inspired by Hepaistos" or "yes, this is Yaweh's blessing?"

Is it tough to put your finger on it? Do you wrestle with the possibility that you might be wrong to attribute something to one of your deities?
​

By extension, when we attribute things to our deities, at least internally we would regard this as proof of our deities. This is one of the reasons I am finding this question rather interesting. How do you answer it?

[Oh, and here's the semi-obligatory reminder that I put this in interfaith discussion, so if you want to debate aspects of this topic, please kick up a thread in another spot. Thanks!]

if the actions of a human are in accordance with arete, then they follow the path of the gods.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

if the actions of a human are in accordance with arete, then they follow the path of the gods.

Thanks! Had to look that one up; new word for the day!

 

[Erebus]

If something happens that would fit within a particular gods sphere of influence (as I see it) then I could attribute it to said god. For example, I tend to associate thunder and lightning with Thor. There are a lot of gods I could associate such weather with but Thor is my usual preference. If a tree is felled by a lightning strike, I can attribute that to an act of Thor.

Now this doesn't necessarily imply a conscious decision on the part of a god mind you. I'm not claiming that the thunderstorm looked at a particular tree and said, "That's the one! Boom!" I'm fairly confident that you know where I'm coming from Quintessence but for the sake of anybody reading, think of it as a poetic way of viewing the world.

As far as actual, conscious divine intervention is concerned, I really couldn't say. It could be entirely a mental construct of the person experiencing the supposed intervention, or it could be "supernatural" (I still hate that word). I think it's up to each person to decide for themselves.

 

[The magical volleyball]

The simplest answer is that people are naturally lazy. It is much easier and requires much less effort to say that something you don't understand is magic and beyond understanding, than to actually investigate and and discover the process behind what happened. Especially if believing that magic just occurred reinforces your belief that magic actually exists.

 

[Moody Giraffe]

Normally if it reminds me of a specific God, then I tend to think of it as a reminder from that deity. For example, the Hindu god, Ganesh, is the God of obstacles. If I'm going through a particularly tough situation I take a step back and think, "What is Ganesh trying to teach me from this situation?" - Now I could be entirely wrong and maybe the Gods don't exist at all. But I figure I'm not causing any harm by thinking about the Gods during certain situations, so why not?


I could go a step further and say that Ganesh is the one who pushed me towards my exploration in Hinduism. Before Ganesh entered my dreams, I had absolutely no connection to a Hindu deity or the religion at all. I'm just a rural midwestern U.S. white girl raised in a bible belt-type area. What in the world am I doing following Hinduism? No idea. But I felt Ganesh pushing me towards the faith. And when I ignored him, he kept returning to my dreams and sticking in my mind. Deep down I know it wasn't just a random whim of my own, but some sort of 'push' from a deity to follow this path. It's difficult to explain the emotion behind it. It's like being in love - you can't prove it to anyone else but deep down it feels right.

 

[LukeS]

I don't think there is a generic "it" type of thing which causes such attribution as "God" something or other. Like in science, technically isolating a variable - that's not the way.

Rather theism is a mind-set, a priori approaching the world in a certain way with selective attention*, and all creation (or neutrality perceived as such) has something to do with God in some way - to grater and lesser degree acknowledged from situation to situation.

Things are more like signs, like in phenomenology where worldly objects indicate this usage, many sidedness etc. for me phenomena indicate the wonder of existence, at times of focus, God included. Like an atheist staring at the milky way with awe, its not a guaranteed experience, more like an aesthetic one where an 'aesthetic attitude' you bring to the situaiton makes a contribution.

One "sign" can be emotion and intuition, with theism ingrained in the psyche, abandon all thoughts and let ones feelings guide; like a form of psychic power in cooperation with God-consciousness.

Another "sign" might be a squally wind, appreciated in a different way.

Another may be the coping power religion assists with.

Another may be the tranquillity and focus in prayer, or in sufi "zikr" - where the quality of truth is a sign...

All of these may "cohere" in forming a general sense of God and truth in religion... rather than one "type" of fact causing faith, the attitude-lifestyle matrix is self reinforcing as a social and psychological whole.

*
Theres a quran quote long the lines of

unbeliever "you didn't guide us"

Allah "no, you didn't listen".

If you listen to the quran in the vid, you have to bring faith and lifestyle with you, to properly appreciate the "light" (noor) of the quran, and the world around us. Like I have Islamic art and light tea lights in my flat, which helps with the sense of "noor"....(may seem false to you, but its down to selective attention and guided action - imagine all those nasty predicaments I have avoided whilst I appreciate the sense of noor!) - Allah loves the believers, not the unbelievers...

Although I am a peaceful person (astagfirullah for any evil stirring I don't want to cuase *any" trouble whatsoever), I admittedly feel like a bit of a ninja sometimes - the faith reminds me of the aikijujutsu spirit, not for its violence but its powerful elegance and stylistic beauty.

A teacher of aikido once told me its like 3 things: tea ceremony, swordsmanship and flower arranging.

]So Ill end with a friendly salam:

 

[Quintessence]

The simplest answer is that people are naturally lazy. It is much easier and requires much less effort to say that something you don't understand is magic and beyond understanding, than to actually investigate and and discover the process behind what happened. Especially if believing that magic just occurred reinforces your belief that magic actually exists.

As someone who doesn't identify as a theist, it's not surprising that you tell yourself this story. This thread, apparently, is not for you. This thread is for theists and to explore how we wrestle with attributing things to our gods, and as it is something we wrestle with, it is hardly "much easier" or something that requires "less effort." I wager you can't understand that as a non-theist, but it is one of the challenges we face. It isn't simple, and it isn't easy.

Let's all keep in mind what the point of this thread is moving forward, yes?

if the actions of a human are in accordance with arete, then they follow the path of the gods.

This is something I look for myself, too. When I made this thread a few weeks ago, I thought about one person in particular who expresses this. There's a modern day sword maker whose master smith I had the pleasure of meeting a couple of years ago. The swords this man's business produces are those of an artisan, and they speak for themselves, but actually meeting the man - I could swear he was an incarnation of Hepaistos himself. It was a really striking and mystical experience that I wasn't expecting to happen in that time and context. Men like him were once a common sight back in the age when Hepiastos was more commonly worshiped. Now? They are a priceless rarity.

 

[Quintessence]

As far as actual, conscious divine intervention is concerned, I really couldn't say. It could be entirely a mental construct of the person experiencing the supposed intervention, or it could be "supernatural" (I still hate that word). I think it's up to each person to decide for themselves.

I'm not sure about stuff like that myself. Theologically, the idea of "conscious divine intervention" doesn't gel well with my default approach to these matters, as, like you said, the gods are something of a poetic way of referencing various facets of the world we live in.

But I'm really curious to hear from some of our Abrahamic friends on this, because their approach to the idea of deity is very different than mine is as a Druid. Their god is often said to routinely engage in acts of conscious, divine intervention. I'd like to hear some tales as to how they go about attributing things to this sort of intervention.

 

[Quintessence]

Rather theism is a mind-set, a priori approaching the world in a certain way with selective attention*, and all creation (or neutrality perceived as such) has something to do with God in some way - to grater and lesser degree acknowledged from situation to situation.

This is a really good point worth exploring a bit more if we have the inclination and time. One has to be in the proper frame of mind to be able to see things as coming from God our gods. We aren't always in that headspace, though, right? Then we can miss things, overlook things, fail to notice things.