@Katzpur said : “This may strike you as a strange way to see things, but I believe that the events in the Garden of Eden unfolded exactly as God intended them to (post #59
I agree.
CAN AN OMNISCIENT GOD BE SURPRISED?
It’s hard to reconcile the belief in Omniscience with the typical Fall of Adam tradition where God is somehow surprised at the fall of Adam and a wily lucifer who somehow wrecks God’s “Plan A” for mankind, necessitating a surprised God to come up with a “Plan B” involving a savior.
In the ancient Judeo-Christian model God is not surprised nor caught unaware of the result of an innocent and naïve Adam is in a garden in close proximity to Satan (who also was in the Garden and placed there on purpose by God the Father who could have kept Satan apart from the couple). Thus, the Prophet Sedrach’s observation to God the Father that : “It was by your will that Adam was deceived, my master” (Apo Sedrach 5:1-7) is poignant.
The second principle was the early doctrine that Adam partook of the “TREE OF WISDOM” (1st Enoch 32:3-6). It was not simply the tree of "knowledge” and that knowledge itself was not evil.
The implications of both ancient principles was the basis of an entirely different paradigm. Combined and paraphrased, this ancient doctrine was : “It was according to God's will that Adam acquired wisdom.”.
Just as the origin of Satan is not to be understood outside of early Christian theology, I do not think the fall of Adam can be well understood without considering the ancient historical context the story was created in.
REGARDING THE PRINCIPLE OF GAINING KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL
I certainly agree with the ancient principle that Adam’s having gained moral knowledge and understanding of “Good and Evil” was NOT itself evil nor was it a “fiasco”, but rather it was according to the original plan of God.
Our Mortality and the atonement of Jesus does not seem to represent a “plan B” in early Adamic, Abrahamic and Enoich Christian histories but rather it WAS the original plan. The Messiah was the lamb slain “from the foundation of the world” and not “from the Fall of Adam”.
Even the ancient Judeo-Christian “war in heaven” histories show that God was not simply “duped” by a clever Lucifer bent on revenge for Adam’s "role" in the war in heaven, but rather the acquisition of knowledge and understanding WAS a major reason for mortality.
The Apostolic Fathers such as Diogenes, Clement, and Hermas (et al) made clear, the essential importance of knowledge in the early Christian teachings :
Quote: “the tree of knowledge does not kill, on the contrary, disobedience kills. For it is not without significance that the scriptures record that God in the beginning planted a tree of knowledge and a tree of life in the midst of Paradise, thereby revealing that life is through knowledge...For there is neither life without knowledge, nor sound knowledge without true life; therefore each tree stands planted near the other”. (Diog 12:2-3)
Clement, the colleague of the apostles Peter and Paul taught that “...the Master has willed that we should taste immortal knowledge” (I Clement 36:2)
Moral knowledge is the very principle early Christians were taught to seek. This principle of ASKING God for revelations and knowledge is woven through much of the early Christian doctrines. For example, Ignatius and others, remind the Christians multiple times to seek knowledge and understanding :
Quote: “Devote yourself to unceasing prayers; Ask for greater understanding than you have.” (I-poly 1:3). “ask, in order that the unseen things may be revealed to you, that you may be lacking in nothing and abound in every spiritual gift” (Ignatius-poly 2:22)
Hermas and many others also make this ancient principle clear : Quote: “Do not attempt, as though you were intelligent, to understand things you cannot comprehend, but ask the Lord that you may receive the intelligence to understand them.” (Hermas 79:6)
Even the reward which God often gives the repentant, is knowledge: The angel of repentance, in speaking to Hermas says is “...in charge of repentance, and I give understanding to all who repent. Her 218:30:2;
IGNORANCE AND SIN ARE BOTH LAMENTABLE
While moral and social ignorance is lamentable, the prophet Enoch relates God’s explanation to him regarding the relative import of ignorance and knowledge and sin. It impacts the early Christian discussion as to WHY God engineered the Fall of Adam to Occur :
Quote: “And I .... called his name Adam. And I gave him his free will; and I pointed out to him the two ways –light and darkness. And I said to him, ‘this is good for you, but that is bad’; so that I might come to know whether he has love toward me or abhorrence, and so that it might become plain who among his race loves me. Whereas I have come to know his nature, he does not know his own nature. That is why ignorance is more lamentable than the sin such as it is in him to sin. And I said, “After sin there is nothing for it but death.’....and I imposed sleep upon him, and he fell asleep. And while he was sleeping, I took from him a rib. And I created for him a wife, so that death might come to him by his wife.” (2en 30:14-17)
It is in THIS ancient context that the prophet “Sedrach said to him” [God]. “It was by your will that Adam was deceived, my master”. In one Adamic history, Adam relates the coming of the Pre-Mortal Messiah to him “And behold, your word came to me and the Lord said to me, ‘Because your days are numbered, you have been made to cherish knowledge; ...” (Life of Adam and Eve (Vita) 27:2-3) (Note that “your word” is a euphamism for the pre-mortal messiah)
In any case Katzpur, I thought your point was insightful.
Clear
ειεινεειω
I agree.
CAN AN OMNISCIENT GOD BE SURPRISED?
It’s hard to reconcile the belief in Omniscience with the typical Fall of Adam tradition where God is somehow surprised at the fall of Adam and a wily lucifer who somehow wrecks God’s “Plan A” for mankind, necessitating a surprised God to come up with a “Plan B” involving a savior.
In the ancient Judeo-Christian model God is not surprised nor caught unaware of the result of an innocent and naïve Adam is in a garden in close proximity to Satan (who also was in the Garden and placed there on purpose by God the Father who could have kept Satan apart from the couple). Thus, the Prophet Sedrach’s observation to God the Father that : “It was by your will that Adam was deceived, my master” (Apo Sedrach 5:1-7) is poignant.
The second principle was the early doctrine that Adam partook of the “TREE OF WISDOM” (1st Enoch 32:3-6). It was not simply the tree of "knowledge” and that knowledge itself was not evil.
The implications of both ancient principles was the basis of an entirely different paradigm. Combined and paraphrased, this ancient doctrine was : “It was according to God's will that Adam acquired wisdom.”.
Just as the origin of Satan is not to be understood outside of early Christian theology, I do not think the fall of Adam can be well understood without considering the ancient historical context the story was created in.
REGARDING THE PRINCIPLE OF GAINING KNOWLEDGE OF GOOD AND EVIL
I certainly agree with the ancient principle that Adam’s having gained moral knowledge and understanding of “Good and Evil” was NOT itself evil nor was it a “fiasco”, but rather it was according to the original plan of God.
Our Mortality and the atonement of Jesus does not seem to represent a “plan B” in early Adamic, Abrahamic and Enoich Christian histories but rather it WAS the original plan. The Messiah was the lamb slain “from the foundation of the world” and not “from the Fall of Adam”.
Even the ancient Judeo-Christian “war in heaven” histories show that God was not simply “duped” by a clever Lucifer bent on revenge for Adam’s "role" in the war in heaven, but rather the acquisition of knowledge and understanding WAS a major reason for mortality.
The Apostolic Fathers such as Diogenes, Clement, and Hermas (et al) made clear, the essential importance of knowledge in the early Christian teachings :
Quote: “the tree of knowledge does not kill, on the contrary, disobedience kills. For it is not without significance that the scriptures record that God in the beginning planted a tree of knowledge and a tree of life in the midst of Paradise, thereby revealing that life is through knowledge...For there is neither life without knowledge, nor sound knowledge without true life; therefore each tree stands planted near the other”. (Diog 12:2-3)
Clement, the colleague of the apostles Peter and Paul taught that “...the Master has willed that we should taste immortal knowledge” (I Clement 36:2)
Moral knowledge is the very principle early Christians were taught to seek. This principle of ASKING God for revelations and knowledge is woven through much of the early Christian doctrines. For example, Ignatius and others, remind the Christians multiple times to seek knowledge and understanding :
Quote: “Devote yourself to unceasing prayers; Ask for greater understanding than you have.” (I-poly 1:3). “ask, in order that the unseen things may be revealed to you, that you may be lacking in nothing and abound in every spiritual gift” (Ignatius-poly 2:22)
Hermas and many others also make this ancient principle clear : Quote: “Do not attempt, as though you were intelligent, to understand things you cannot comprehend, but ask the Lord that you may receive the intelligence to understand them.” (Hermas 79:6)
Even the reward which God often gives the repentant, is knowledge: The angel of repentance, in speaking to Hermas says is “...in charge of repentance, and I give understanding to all who repent. Her 218:30:2;
IGNORANCE AND SIN ARE BOTH LAMENTABLE
While moral and social ignorance is lamentable, the prophet Enoch relates God’s explanation to him regarding the relative import of ignorance and knowledge and sin. It impacts the early Christian discussion as to WHY God engineered the Fall of Adam to Occur :
Quote: “And I .... called his name Adam. And I gave him his free will; and I pointed out to him the two ways –light and darkness. And I said to him, ‘this is good for you, but that is bad’; so that I might come to know whether he has love toward me or abhorrence, and so that it might become plain who among his race loves me. Whereas I have come to know his nature, he does not know his own nature. That is why ignorance is more lamentable than the sin such as it is in him to sin. And I said, “After sin there is nothing for it but death.’....and I imposed sleep upon him, and he fell asleep. And while he was sleeping, I took from him a rib. And I created for him a wife, so that death might come to him by his wife.” (2en 30:14-17)
It is in THIS ancient context that the prophet “Sedrach said to him” [God]. “It was by your will that Adam was deceived, my master”. In one Adamic history, Adam relates the coming of the Pre-Mortal Messiah to him “And behold, your word came to me and the Lord said to me, ‘Because your days are numbered, you have been made to cherish knowledge; ...” (Life of Adam and Eve (Vita) 27:2-3) (Note that “your word” is a euphamism for the pre-mortal messiah)
In any case Katzpur, I thought your point was insightful.
Clear
ειεινεειω
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