Australia, an island for boat people?

[NobodyYouKnow]

This is not accurate. Numbers of boat people have spiked in the last year or so, though. But still, I never quite understand why we talk about 'boat people'. It's a misnomer. In 2008, over 96% of all asylum seekers arrived by plan, on legitimate business or student visas, and then applied for refugee status.

Source:http://www.news.com.au/world/ten-myths-around-asylum-seekers-arriving-on-boats-in-australian-waters/story-fndir2ev-1226676024840



Not doubting you on this (seriously!), but do you have a source? I find UN rulings, and what they decide to impose sanctions in relation to pretty random at times.



Okay, so what is the deterrent you think best works?
Are you in favour of the use of Papua New Guinea, or other offshore facilities?



I'll trade ya a map for a map.
How did you arrive at a figure of 10%-15%, out of interest?



I'm not usually referred to as a left-wing liberal, but there ya go. Perhaps on this issue I am. Suffice to say, I'm unsure what the 'true Australian spirit' involves, in your opinion.

According to the national anthem;
"For those who've come across the seas, We've boundless plains to share"



Yeah. I'd like us to go the Republic route, and I'd certainly be open to the idea of a flag change in combination to that. Do you find that un-Australian?
Once someone is an Australian citizen, I could care less where they come from or where they were born. We're all immigrants, or from immigrant backgrounds.



I think there are some pretty real issues which need discussion, and some things which we need to work out better ways to handle.
I just don't see jingoism, closed-border policies, or reactionism as the means with which to effectively address it.



I'm not a fan of Stormfront, I'll admit that upfront.
But having looked at the link, I'm struggling to identify what point you're trying to make. Is it that there are large numbers of Australian's who would agree with your position? I'd definitely agree. The part that makes no sense is where those Australians decide they are the sole arbiters of 'Australian-ness' and that those who disagree are 'left-wing liberals' who are clearly either working to an agenda, or are happy for the country to be flooded by undesireables.

There are real issues that need to be discussed and addressed. Doing so via slogans, bumper-stickers and falsifications does nothing to further our handling of these issues. Unless both sides of these debates grow-up and stop mud-slinging, 'boat people' will continue to be a political football used for self-serving purposes, with most of the discussion having at best a passing association with the truth.



I'd love to discuss these issues with you in a more rational thread. I think we'd find more common ground on some aspects than you'd expect. But my reaction to things like the 'Bugger Off We're Full' picture you posted is always going to be to refute your assertion, and try to return the 'debate' to rational ground.

I have edited my post to say that the 'Australian Spirit' is the ANZAC spirit.

Soldiers in the wars fought and died to preserve our national identity...that identity we are now throwing away.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Yep, seriously!

Somebody has to take a hard line against these liberals, no matter the cost, no matter them being branded as being 'racist'.

Stormfront is a white supremacist site. It's all a bunch of neo-Nazis and white trash Confederate types. Really, you're not doing yourself any favors by aligning with them.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I have edited my post to say that the 'Australian Spirit' is the ANZAC spirit.

Soldiers in the wars fought and died to preserve our national identity...that identity we are now throwing away.

Not sure you want to go and place this discussion on a military footing, unless you have a well-developed understanding of Australian military history...but your call.

My question remains, regardless. You can call it 'Australian spirit' or you can call it 'ANZAC spirit', but what I am interested in is what are you talking about. Not a catch-phrase. What are you actually talking about. Define the ANZAC spirit in your own words.

I suspect my version of it runs contrary to yours.

I'd also be interested in any other responses you have to my post.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

Not sure you want to go and place this discussion on a military footing, unless you have a well-developed understanding of Australian military history...but your call.

My question remains, regardless. You can call it 'Australian spirit' or you can call it 'ANZAC spirit', but what I am interested in is what are you talking about. Not a catch-phrase. What are you actually talking about. Define the ANZAC spirit in your own words.

I suspect my version of it runs contrary to yours.

I'd also be interested in any other responses you have to my post.

How I define it, is that last Anzac Day, Bob Katter posted a blog (will find it later) whereby Anzac pins were not allowed to be sold in a shopping mall run by a Muslim person, because it was 'un-Australian'.

Whereby, in a school, the Australian flag was taken down and replaced by an Islamic flag, and the students who took down that flag and put the Australian one back up there, were suspended (and not the students who took down the Australian Flag).

I could provide links and such, but a lot of the content is not suitable for a forum such as this, and comes from 'white supremacy websites', so it will be taken with a grain of salt anyway.

As for other responses -

1. We should have boats patrolling these waters under the auspices of the UN Flag.

2. The situation we already have in place (the PNG solution) is working, so if it isn't broken, don't fix it.

3. The 10-15% came from what I learned in school.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

How I define it, is that last Anzac Day, Bob Katter posted a blog (will find it later) whereby Anzac pins were not allowed to be sold in a shopping mall run by a Muslim person, because it was 'un-Australian'.

Whereby, in a school, the Australian flag was taken down and replaced by an Islamic flag, and the students who took down that flag and put the Australian one back up there, were suspended (and not the students who took down the Australian Flag).

I could provide links and such, but a lot of the content is not suitable for a forum such as this, and comes from 'white supremacy websites', so it will be taken with a grain of salt anyway.

As for other responses -

1. We should have boats patrolling these waters under the auspices of the UN Flag.

2. The situation we already have in place (the PNG solution) is working, so if it isn't broken, don't fix it.

3. The 10-15% came from what I learned in school.

Hey, we have the same problem in America with some immigrants disrespecting us and getting benefits from the government when people like me can't get much of anything. In fact, my neighborhood is probably mostly immigrants - Mexicans, Somalis and Nepalese. I cannot stand my Nepalese neighbors. They are extremely rude and trashy (literally, they leave trash strewn all over the place, it's completely disgusting). But this is a cultural issue and a government that's extremely broken. There are immigrants that are great people and very nice. So turning racist is not the key here. It won't fix anything. I also had very rude and nasty black and white neighbors, too. So if you're going to hate, you might as well be consistent and hate everyone.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

How I define it, is that last Anzac Day, Bob Katter posted a blog (will find it later) whereby Anzac pins were not allowed to be sold in a shopping mall run by a Muslim person, because it was 'un-Australian'.

If you could find the blog, I'd be interested in reading it.
At the end of the day, I suppose the shopping mall is private property, and the owner can make a decision on what is sold there, at least when there is no contract in place.

I think it's crap, but there it is. Anyways, I'd be interested in the detail.

Whereby, in a school, the Australian flag was taken down and replaced by an Islamic flag, and the students who took down that flag and put the Australian one back up there, were suspended (and not the students who took down the Australian Flag).

I could provide links and such, but a lot of the content is not suitable for a forum such as this, and comes from 'white supremacy websites', so it will be taken with a grain of salt anyway.

You're saying the ONLY place this was documented was in white supremacy websites? On that alone I find it dubious, to say the least. The story doesn't make sense, on the face of it. I doubt such a thing would occur, and only be documented on white supremacy websites, and be factual.
Could you at least provide the school name so I can try and independently source information?

As for other responses -

1. We should have boats patrolling these waters under the auspices of the UN Flag.

To what end? What international law do you think they would be enforcing? If anything, you'd be inviting interference with our Navy in the way they are conducting operations, although the most likely impact you be negligible.

2. The situation we already have in place (the PNG solution) is working, so if it isn't broken, don't fix it.

How do you reconcile Australia being signatories of the Refugee Convention to our willingness to ship refugees to a country which is both a non-signatory, and a known abuser of human rights?

Why do you think PNG accepts these detainees for processing, and what does this suggest about out preferred method of dealing with the problem?

Why are we so keen to ensure boat people are kept outside Australian territorial waters, and do everything we can to ensure this continues through their processing, yet barely a murmur is heard about the bulk of refugee seekers, who have arrived by plane on visas issues by the government?

What is your opinion on the cost of the facility, and the unwillingness of the Government to release cost figures? It's our taxes at work. Shouldn't we know what is being spent there?

3. The 10-15% came from what I learned in school.

Okay. Teachers are human. They were mistaken. Whilst it is true there is a lot of unusable land in Australia, there is simply no factual measurement that suggests Australia is running short on usable land, now or into the future.

If you want a quick and easy point of reference, consider Tasmania alone. Look at the resources and land available, and compare it to population density.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

[youtube]B3_trKK7u_o[/youtube]
Aussie Digger Speaking against Islam - YouTube

Then again, anything like 'Rise Up Australia' or Pauline Hanson or anything like that is seen as a 'racist/supremacist group' by the liberals, and I am not a liberal.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

If you could find the blog, I'd be interested in reading it.
At the end of the day, I suppose the shopping mall is private property, and the owner can make a decision on what is sold there, at least when there is no contract in place.

I think it's crap, but there it is. Anyways, I'd be interested in the detail.

False Claim - Anzac Day Badges Banned at Mt. Warren Shopping Centre

They say it is a 'false claim', but people will believe whatever they will.

You're saying the ONLY place this was documented was in white supremacy websites? On that alone I find it dubious, to say the least. The story doesn't make sense, on the face of it. I doubt such a thing would occur, and only be documented on white supremacy websites, and be factual.
Could you at least provide the school name so I can try and independently source information?

Bob Katter and the 'Labor Party's Worst Nightmare' Polemic

To what end? What international law do you think they would be enforcing? If anything, you'd be inviting interference with our Navy in the way they are conducting operations, although the most likely impact you be negligible.

So, if any asylum seekers are fished out of the water, they don't come under that flag of the ship they are on...and also, so the UN can see things for themselves.

I will reply to more later.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

Oh yes, there are also all those Islamic demonstrations in Sydney, with refugees carrying placards like this one:

They say a picture is worth a thousand words, so I have just said my thousand right there.

Then, there's this:

[youtube]30a4c-0oMDM[/youtube]
Muslim Cleric Jihadist Living In Australia On Welfare for 19 years - YouTube

...and this:

Sydney Olympics gang rape victim fearful as six attackers freed from jail | Mail Online

...and this:
The Australian Conservative Truth: Why are NSW Police covering up islamic crime and islamic civil war in Sydney - endangering all Sydney residents?

.....and this:
http://www.hotheads.com.au/muslims in australia.htm

...and this:
Muslim Immigrants Five Times More Likely to Commit Crimes than Australians | FrontPage Magazine

....and this:
Asylum seekers - Muslims flooding into Australia by illegal boat entry

....and these:
https://www.facebook.com/AusTeaParty/posts/10151876819621434?stream_ref=10
http://www.barenakedislam.com/2013/...t-proposed-halal-muslim-only-housing-enclave/
http://images.smh.com.au/2012/09/16/3640148/art-3-20protest-620x349.jpg
http://resources1.news.com.au/images/2012/09/18/1226475/619545-childsign.gif

I could go on and on.....and on.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

In addition...a solution?

Seeing as how more of Australia is 'habitable' than people think, let's build a huge detention facility out in the middle of the desert somewhere.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

[youtube]B3_trKK7u_o[/youtube]
Aussie Digger Speaking against Islam - YouTube

Then again, anything like 'Rise Up Australia' or Pauline Hanson or anything like that is seen as a 'racist/supremacist group' by the liberals, and I am not a liberal.

Can you do me a favour and direct me to what the point of the video is? You've posted a 30 minute vid. Whilst I'm not completely against watching the whole thing, it's a pretty solid investment of my time.

If you're trying to extrapolate from one Digger what the opinion of all Anzacs are, then I'm not interested. If, however, you feel the Digger makes some important points, then I'll try and find time to watch it. Some indication of those points would help me though.

Rise Up Australia and Pauline Hanson are not what I would be marking my card with when voting. I'm not a liberal either. What is it about those particular politicians that you find compelling?

 

[lewisnotmiller]

False Claim - Anzac Day Badges Banned at Mt. Warren Shopping Centre

They say it is a 'false claim', but people will believe whatever they will.

Yes, that is clearly true.

Bob Katter and the 'Labor Party's Worst Nightmare' Polemic

In response, I'd offer the following, and ask you to make your own conclusion. Perhaps reflect on what nodding along with this sort of stuff, and assuming it's real when even a 2 minute google search suggests otherwise means in relation to your worldview.

'Bad Brit' - Nigel Farage and the Tory Party's Worst Nightmare

I Am Proud To Be An America

I would re-iterate my point that there are real issues and real problems to discuss. The links you have offered here do NOTHING to address the real issues, and seek only to inflame the situation. I am not suggesting you are trying to inflame things, but by consuming such things blindly, passing them on as factual and basically representing them as an honest assessment of the country, you're become a mob follower without having the least idea of who you're following.

So, if any asylum seekers are fished out of the water, they don't come under that flag of the ship they are on...and also, so the UN can see things for themselves.

If they are fished out of Australian territorial waters, then they are Australian responsibility, regardless of the ship that fishes them out. I'm not sure what the UN presence in Australia is like, or where they get their information from (I honestly don't know), but I would agree that they need to have clear and unambiguous sources of information if they are going to comment on our situation.

I will reply to more later.

Yep, no probs.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

Oh yes, there are also all those Islamic demonstrations in Sydney, with refugees carrying placards like this one:

They say a picture is worth a thousand words, so I have just said my thousand right there.

Then, there's this:

[youtube]30a4c-0oMDM[/youtube]
Muslim Cleric Jihadist Living In Australia On Welfare for 19 years - YouTube

...and this:

Sydney Olympics gang rape victim fearful as six attackers freed from jail | Mail Online

...and this:
The Australian Conservative Truth: Why are NSW Police covering up islamic crime and islamic civil war in Sydney - endangering all Sydney residents?

.....and this:
Muslims In Australia

...and this:
Muslim Immigrants Five Times More Likely to Commit Crimes than Australians | FrontPage Magazine

....and this:
Asylum seekers - Muslims flooding into Australia by illegal boat entry

....and these:
https://www.facebook.com/AusTeaParty/posts/10151876819621434?stream_ref=10
Anti-Islamist Australians pass out flyers against proposed ‘Halal’ Muslim-only housing enclave | BARE NAKED ISLAM
http://images.smh.com.au/2012/09/16/3640148/art-3-20protest-620x349.jpg
http://resources1.news.com.au/images/2012/09/18/1226475/619545-childsign.gif

I could go on and on.....and on.

It's gonna take me a while to trawl through all that and offer comment.
Is there an overarching point to this? Is your point that Islam is destroying Australia? How do you link these protestors to refugee status? I'm not stating you're wrong, I'm trying to work out if this is based on information or is a supposition.

I have no doubt that you can source a million sites supporting your position. The problem for me is I can't simply grab information, but instead need to look at it in some depth, and try to evaluate it's authenticity, it's bias, and it's intent. So, no doubt, my response will be slower in coming, and will probably not be to your satisfaction.

But I'm willing to make the attempt if you're willing to read my responses.

 

[psychoslice]

I'm with you on this lewisnotmiller , we don't need other people coming here to tell us how the country should be run, we were doing very well without them, all I see now is Australia ending up like America with all of its gang wars.

 

[NobodyYouKnow]

Is there an overarching point to this? Is your point that Islam is destroying Australia? How do you link these protestors to refugee status? I'm not stating you're wrong, I'm trying to work out if this is based on information or is a supposition.

I have no doubt that you can source a million sites supporting your position. The problem for me is I can't simply grab information, but instead need to look at it in some depth, and try to evaluate it's authenticity, it's bias, and it's intent. So, no doubt, my response will be slower in coming, and will probably not be to your satisfaction.

But I'm willing to make the attempt if you're willing to read my responses.

I will respond with, the rise in Islamic violence and Muslim crime/gangs is directly proportional to our rates of immigration from Middle-Eastern countries and will only increase the more we let in from these regions, so we should totally stop immigration into this country (via boats or otherwise) at least until we get this problem sorted out...and no, I am not going to provide a source as to the correlation between immigration and crime, providing any statistics or source whatsoever, when it is just so fricken obvious, and to deny this is even going on means one has been totally brainwashed by the liberals and humanitarians.

So yes, my point is:

Islam is destroying Australia.

...and it's not based on information, or supposition, but by direct observation and experience.

However, we must finally agree to disagree on this issue, because I will never compromise on it.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I'm with you on this lewisnotmiller , we don't need other people coming here to tell us how the country should be run, we were doing very well without them, all I see now is Australia ending up like America with all of its gang wars.

Hey bud,

Not sure which part of my posting we agree with? My best guess is we don't agree, in general terms, but might have some common ground on specific issues.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

I'm with you on this lewisnotmiller , we don't need other people coming here to tell us how the country should be run, we were doing very well without them, all I see now is Australia ending up like America with all of its gang wars.

What? Gang wars weren't caused by immigrants.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

I will respond with, the rise in Islamic violence and Muslim crime/gangs is directly proportional to our rates of immigration from Middle-Eastern countries and will only increase the more we let in from these regions, so we should totally stop immigration into this country (via boats or otherwise) at least until we get this problem sorted out...and no, I am not going to provide a source as to the correlation between immigration and crime, providing any statistics or source whatsoever, when it is just so fricken obvious, and to deny this is even going on means one has been totally brainwashed by the liberals and humanitarians.

Hang on.

1) I only asked if you would read my responses, if I went to the trouble of trawling through numerous video links you provided. You're asking me to invest a lot of time in sifting through your sources without providing much of a linkage or correlation between them above and beyond 'Islam is bad'. If that is your point, I don't need to watch 12 videos and pictures you provided to understand your point.

2) I'm not brainwashed by anyone, including you and your insistence that to deny your points means I'm brainwashed. Ironic, I know. In this matter, as all else, I'll think for myself, and use rationality.

3) You're supposing I am 'pro-Islamic immigration', whatever that means, based on the fact that I disagree with a lot of what you have posted. I'd put myself more towards undecided, to be honest. However, I will assert, and continue to assert, that posting messages like 'Bugger Off, We're Full' does nothing to help this country, nor it's immigration policies, nor meaningful discussion. It's a means of venting, and blaming.

...and it's not based on information, or supposition, but by direct observation and experience.

I see. I have a measure of direct experience and observation also. I always find it interesting when someone tries to claim 'Australian-ness', or invokes the ANZAC spirit, or simply calls on direct experience when talking to someone who also has direct experience.

Again, I am not, and have not, denied Australia has issues with integration, assimilation, religion, and pretty much whatever else you want to point at. Rational and adult discussion of these issues, without name-calling, would be of great benefit to the country, and something neither 'side' seems able to consistently produce. I would have to say that your sources of information are particularly biased based on what you've demonstrated in this thread.

However, we must finally agree to disagree on this issue, because I will never compromise on it.

I'd love to know how you have me pegged. As far as I can tell, the main problem I have had with your viewpoint is that it's presented via biased and jingoistic language that is inflammatory in nature, and does nothing to realistically address the issues at hand.
If you're not willing to compromise on that type of approach then there isn't much hope for us to even exchange views of the issue at hand, let alone work out where we agree or disagree.

 

[psychoslice]

What? Gang wars weren't caused by immigrants.

Well that's how I see it from where I am, the big melting pot of mixed nationalities just doesn't work.

 

[psychoslice]

Hey bud,

Not sure which part of my posting we agree with? My best guess is we don't agree, in general terms, but might have some common ground on specific issues.

Sorry about that, I meant NobodyYouKnow.