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Ayn Rand: Philosopher or Bimbo?

lunamoth

Will to love
eudaimonia said:
I don't know if any of what I just wrote will change your mind, or your feelings, about Objectivism, but I offer it for your consideration. Thank you for sharing your perspective.
eudaimonia,

Mark

Hi Mark,

Thank you for the thoughtful reply. I think it is possible that I have misjudged Rand's philosophy, although I still think it is lacking in dimension. As comprehend said though, most philosophers are presenting what seem like extreme or what I call unbalanced ideas because you can never take into full account the unpredictability and 'messiness' caused by human nature/diversity. Ideologies just don't work when applied on a large scale to a whole of society, and history shows how disastor can strike when such social experiments are tried. Also, it is true that I usually find myself disagreeing with things said by her self-claimed followers, and those things may not really reflect what Rand thought.

She was obviously a very bright, talented, strong woman and I can't help but admire that. How many women philosophers can most people name? Like us all, her views were colored by her experiences and because we came from quite different worlds much of what she says does not resonate with me. In my world I see capitalism running amuck, widening the gap between the rich and poor, and while I'm not an anti-capitalist by any means it is far from a perfect system. I think I will however pick up the Fountainhead and try to read it with an open mind.

Cheers,
luna
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I enjoyed Rand's books. I found them thought-provoking and often inspiring. She is certainly no bimbo. I consider her an important and influential social theorist.

That said, I consider her opinion of human Nature and unfettered capitalism Pollyannish. Implementation of her ideas would wipe out the middle class.
 

Random

Well-Known Member
I would respect Rand's intelligence and integrity as a philosopher whilst firmly and unambiguously rejecting every single soulless thing she wrote or had to say...politely.
 

Radio Frequency X

World Leader Pretend
Sunstone said:
So, was Ayn Rand a philosopher or just another bimbo? What do you think of her ideas? Do they have philosophical merit or were they the sort of one sided extremist views best suited to a bimbo talk show host?

Most definitely a philosopher in the school of Aristotle’s materialism. I think her ideas are limited, but brilliant. Her views are not extremist and they unfortunately go misunderstood by most people who don't have the slightest understanding of philosophy or the history of ideas. As a philosopher, such is much more like Rousseau, Nietzsche, and Schopenhauer than guys academics like Russell, Hegel, or Kant.
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
Radio Frequency X said:
Most definitely a philosopher in the school of Aristotle’s materialism. I think her ideas are limited, but brilliant. Her views are not extremist and they unfortunately go misunderstood by most people who don't have the slightest understanding of philosophy or the history of ideas. As a philosopher, such is much more like Rousseau, Nietzsche, and Schopenhauer than guys academics like Russell, Hegel, or Kant.
I am tired of Randites telling me that people who don't like Ayn Rand do not understand her, or philosophy, or the history of ideas.

I have read philosophy. I have read her. In fact I've read her more than once, which is five times more than she deserved, simply because people kept saying that if I didn't like her it's because I don't understand her.

I find her perspective to be incredibly myopic and a slave to her times. What is it that's supposedly so inventive? Positivism is simply our movement as a whole towards individualism taken to its logical extreme. It is the worship of individualism. She borrows heavily from Nietzsche and Kant, even as she criticizes them. Anton LaVey was basically espousing similar ideas at around the same time. I read similar thoughts in Aleister Crowley, who preceded her.

And I reject Crowley, LaVey, and Rand all three. But at least the other two were entertaining.
 

Radio Frequency X

World Leader Pretend
lilithu said:
I am tired of Randites telling me that people who don't like Ayn Rand do not understand her, or philosophy, or the history of ideas.

Some people have a real problem with her philosophy and can express that. But most of the time, people are bashing Rand and they don't know anything about her philosophy and how it relates to the history of ideas. If I gave the impression that I thought EVERYONE that disagreed with her was that way, I am sorry. There is pleanty of room for criticism, especially academic criticism.


lilithu said:
I have read philosophy. I have read her. In fact I've read her more than once, which is five times more than she deserved, simply because people kept saying that if I didn't like her it's because I don't understand her.

I think she deserves to be read once, understood, and then dealt with on her merits. If you have done that, then you have done enough.

lilithu said:
I find her perspective to be incredibly myopic and a slave to her times. What is it that's supposedly so inventive? Positivism is simply our movement as a whole towards individualism taken to its logical extreme. It is the worship of individualism. She borrows heavily from Nietzsche and Kant, even as she criticizes them. Anton LaVey was basically espousing similar ideas at around the same time. I read similar thoughts in Aleister Crowley, who preceded her.

And I reject Crowley, LaVey, and Rand all three. But at least the other two were entertaining.

I'm sorry that you didn't find her work entertaining. I'm a huge fan of classical literature and I think her books were remarkable. Her writing wasn't as good at it could have been, but her development of her characters and plot were amazing. Her inability to create an environment and setting were her biggest flaws. You have already demonstrated an understanding of her philosophies connection with the history of ideas to make yourself clear. I am not a blind apologist for Ayn Rand. If I have made myself appear so, please point out how, because I don’t want to come off as an idiot.
 

lilithu

The Devil's Advocate
Radio Frequency X said:
I am not a blind apologist for Ayn Rand. If I have made myself appear so, please point out how, because I don’t want to come off as an idiot.
I have never thought you idotic RFX (except when you're ranting ad hominems agains liberals but then you turn around in the next thread and act perfectly reasonable and intelligent!).

I just didn't like the comment that people who don't like Ayn Rand don't understand her (or philosophy or history...)

Boo, I was all ready to defend my assertion that Rand was influenced by Kant. You're not going to challenge me on that? Well if not, then you and I have a similar understanding of the evolution of individualism. We just don't agree on whether it's a good thing.
 

applewuud

Active Member
I've been reading "Atlas Shrugged" for the past few months, and am reawakening this thread because I was searching for some RF thoughts on it...At over 1,000 paperback pages, there's an awful lot of philosophy, and theology in there. I read it 30 years ago and it's interesting to re-read it with a lot more experience under my belt. There aren't many popular novels in our time that would dedicate so many pages to philosophy. Her main success as a writer is to dramatize philosophical issues and make them interesting...by the time you get to John Galt's long, long speech on the radio challenging the country to turn away from their philosophical error, you're hooked. (Not bad for someone who had to learn English after fleeing her native country.)

Thom Hartmann on Air America reawakened my interest in Ayn Rand because he sees her philosophy as being a key driver behind the neoconservative movement in the United States. Reading it in 2007 is a very different experience from reading it in 1957 when it was written: you can see the consequences of her ideas on our society. Because her ideas were so broad and complex, some can't help but be right, and others can't help but be misguided. She deserves a lot of credit for going against the intellectual tide of her time, but sometimes I wonder what windmills she's tilting at.

The big revelation to me so far is that when I first read it, I thought she was writing against communism and socialism. Now I see she was writing against irrationality of every stripe, religious and political. She is writing against relativism, and for the supremacy of absolute logic. She's violently opposed to tolerating philosophies that manipulate people with mysticism, whether "mystics of spirit" or "mystics of muscle".

She's no bimbo, she deserves to be answered rather than dismissed. Part of what makes her hard to understand for me is that her sphere of experience doesn't encompass mine. There are certain things I "just don't get", and I consider it may be because some of her ideas don't jive with my experience. I've known great industrialists and been in the boardroom with them, and they don't fit the cookie-cutter morality of Hank Rearden, Dagny Taggart, John Galt, and Howard Roark. Some of them were driven by altruism, some by religion, some by neuroses and craziness. Characters in Atlas Shrugged are grouped as either heroic rationalists, or corrupt "looters". There are almost no children in the world of Atlas Shrugged, no communities of people searching for answers honestly together, no real democracy: just those who "control thugs". She posits a new kind of "divine right" without the divinity; a "competence" she seems to suggest is only the province of a special few. Definitely a prelude to the Bush administration.

It would be interesting to consider what Rand would say about the current struggles in the world regarding religious fundamentalism of every stripe. In this department, her ideas are prescient: religion can become the "morality of death" when it seeks to impose unprovable assertions upon society.
 

Trey of Diamonds

Well-Known Member
Cool, an Ayn Rand thread. I flirted with Objectivism back in my younger years and there is still a lot I like about it as a philosophy. But, there was a number of things that I could never resolve.

One, Ayn Rand believed that emotion was a by product of the intellect and as such could and should be controled. Basically Rand believed that man was comprised of two parts, the physical and the mental or intellect. I disgree, for me man is comprised of three parts, the physical, the mental and the emotional. Each of these parts needs to be healthy and well nurtured.

Two, Ayn Rand dealt with absolutes. Lazier-faire capitalism has as little hope of working in the practical world as full blown communisim. I believe in capitalism and the free market society but I also understand that humanity is what it is, a social animal and to disregard this is foolish.

Three, Ayn Rand was a bit out there morally as her affair with Nathaniel Brandon obviously showed and is probably the source of the Bimbo angle. Some see her views as progressive but for me it smacks of creating the rules to get what you want. Her husband was certianly damaged pyscologically and it didn't seem to bother her not to mention what it did to Nathaniel's marrage.

Over all, I keep Objectivism at arms length, taking from it the pieces I like and discarding the rest, same as I do with the religions of the world. ;)
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
It would be interesting to consider what Rand would say about the current struggles in the world regarding religious fundamentalism of every stripe. In this department, her ideas are prescient: religion can become the "morality of death" when it seeks to impose unprovable assertions upon society.

Religious fundamentalism is a breed of objectivism. It's essential method is to take subjective perceptions about reality and ensconce them as objective or absolute "Truth," thereby placing them beyond the realm of investigation. Subjectivism (or as Neitzsche termed it, "perspectivism") is the answer to fundamentalism. Objectivism is fundamentalism's philosophical image. Once one reaches a conclusion about an assertion having been "proved," the sense of humility and wonder, from which reason draws its breath, quickly drains away.

There are no "provable" assertions in the realm of ontology. "Reality" is a function of perspective.
 

Nanda

Polyanna
lol... Sunstone, you make me want to start an "Anais Nin: Romantic literary genius or wacko ****?" thread.
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
So, was Ayn Rand a philosopher or just another bimbo? What do you think of her ideas? Do they have philosophical merit or were they the sort of one sided extremist views best suited to a bimbo talk show host?

Ayn Rand certainly had strong opinions, which as you know for a woman is a cardinal sin, even today. :rolleyes: She could be pedantic as well.

But her opinions were formed greatly by a reaction against Communism, and as she lived through the Russian Revolution and her family were refugees from the USSR it's not too hard to figure out why she might react so strongly against a system that in theory attempted to coddle the unambitious and squash those who had the capacity to create.

Her core message of self-reliance and a view that is essentially humanist is not something to be entirely pooh-poohed, I think.

Her lack of compassion or wider view of the benefit of assisting humanity as a whole to make progress does not speak so well for her, but that may just suggest that she lacked a balanced view or perhaps figured others were doing that anyway and she needn't bother. Certainly I don't think she can be accused of being particularly moderate. :)

But to compare her with a bimbo talk show host, such as the ever-present, frequently dead wrong, not particularly thoughtful Ann Coulter, is to do Rand a horrendous disservice and elevate Coulter far far above her actual intellectual capacity and..."accomplishments."

To be myopic alone should not get one condemned as a bimbo talk show host.

To be a bimbo talk show host you must be:
- myopic
- intellectually weak, preferring mindless repetition of talking points to actual discourse or debate
- uninformed and unwilling to be confused by any facts
- unwilling to admit when one is wrong or apologize
- show a callous disregard for other people, most particularly those who are not able to speak back or otherwise defend themselves
- have a mean-spirited sense of humour that would ridicule people for sins like -- being ill with Parkinson's and shaking
- hypocritical
- capable of practicing intellectual dishonesty as an art form
- motivated by an unhealthy craving for attention and/or a desire to cash in big even though it requires sacrificing all integrity
- reduce all people's motivations to the crassest and most corrupt version of partisan politics
- it isn't necessary to be attractive and/or blonde, but it sure helps!

And:

- without honour

I don't think you can hang all of these on Ayn Rand.

Whatever I may think of her work, she was a serious student in a time when serious education for women was highly discouraged, and sometimes simply not allowed.

For this alone -- she deserves credit for intestinal fortitude and hard work.
 

doppelganger

Through the Looking Glass
It's interesting how both Rand and Orwell are understood as writing against Soviet "Communism," yet they reach directly opposite philosophical conclusions - with Orwell recognizing the pervasive power of the mind to fashion an illusory reality as the very means by which oppressive states operate.
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
Her main success as a writer is to dramatize philosophical issues and make them interesting...by the time you get to John Galt's long, long speech on the radio challenging the country to turn away from their philosophical error, you're hooked. (Not bad for someone who had to learn English after fleeing her native country.)

I agree for the most part, but John Galt's 20-page speech was something I found pedantic and in need of a better speech writer. His points were already made long before, and there was no need to repeat them as if we were all too childish to have gotten the point. Honestly, she's a good writer and it woudl've been difficult to *miss* the point.

Thom Hartmann on Air America reawakened my interest in Ayn Rand because he sees her philosophy as being a key driver behind the neoconservative movement in the United States.
Really? I would've thought it more of a driver behind the libertarian movement, but then as I live in Georgia and we may be one of the most libertarian-minded states these days, I may be guilty of a limited view of her effect on current thinking.

Reading it in 2007 is a very different experience from reading it in 1957 when it was written: you can see the consequences of her ideas on our society. Because her ideas were so broad and complex, some can't help but be right, and others can't help but be misguided. She deserves a lot of credit for going against the intellectual tide of her time, but sometimes I wonder what windmills she's tilting at.
How would she be going against the intellectual tide of her time, when the country was held in the grip of anti-Communist paranoia? :confused: She seems to have been very much in tune with her times, except for that segment in society that demanded a fair share for their own efforts and had to resort to unions to be heard. But then, in 1957 being part of a union nearly got you called a pinko...so again...how was she going against the tide?

The big revelation to me so far is that when I first read it, I thought she was writing against communism and socialism. Now I see she was writing against irrationality of every stripe, religious and political.
I thought her major targets were communism and socialism and anything that would squelch a human's ability to achieve and be credited with and proud of that achievement. There are certainly times when politics and religion will squash individual initiative, so they would be secondary targets at least.

She is writing against relativism, and for the supremacy of absolute logic. She's violently opposed to tolerating philosophies that manipulate people with mysticism, whether "mystics of spirit" or "mystics of muscle".
This is where I think she gets myopic. Mysticism has its uses also. Who is inspired to love one's enemies (and potentially make peace) through absolute logic? Who is inspired to end oppression by mere logic? These efforts to free humanity from the greatest tragedies to not come from absolute logic -- they are motivated by human compassion and a sense of justice -- those are things that come from the heart -- not the head. This is what mystics see and Rand shows her myopia in missing their worth.

Or, as Spock might say, "It is not logical, but it is often true."

She's no bimbo, she deserves to be answered rather than dismissed.
I would think so.

Characters in Atlas Shrugged are grouped as either heroic rationalists, or corrupt "looters".
Yes, arguably Rand's greatest weakness is her seeming inability to see in shades of grey. It's one thing to try and draw a sharp contrast to illustrate her points more clearly, but another to make people so two-dimensional (which she does).

There are almost no children in the world of Atlas Shrugged, no communities of people searching for answers honestly together, no real democracy: just those who "control thugs". She posits a new kind of "divine right" without the divinity; a "competence" she seems to suggest is only the province of a special few. Definitely a prelude to the Bush administration.
How does the Bush administration enter into it? They are accused of rank incompetence from many sides, including what is supposedly their own (there are a lot of very upset fiscal conservatives out there!).

I would think if Rand were alive today to comment, she would have no use at all for the neocons, because they appear in no way to be people of accomplishment, unless you consider it an accomplishment to enrich your cronies, accrue power like any member of the old Politburo might have, and then run away with your tail between your legs...just before you get caught.

I cannot imagine how Rand might've approved of today's events. She doesn't seem to have had much use for the craven or for anyone less than up front about their meaning.

It would be interesting to consider what Rand would say about the current struggles in the world regarding religious fundamentalism of every stripe. In this department, her ideas are prescient: religion can become the "morality of death" when it seeks to impose unprovable assertions upon society.
I doubt she would have much use for religious fundamentalism of any stripe. She was raised in an irreligious household, saw the dangers of misguided religion, and we see the result.

As for religion, it can also become the "morality of life" if it seeks to invite others to look at certain unprovable assertions.

It just depends on what set of assertions you're looking at.

(My...I feel the need to go start a thread...thanks for a thought-provoking post!)
 

lunamoth

Will to love
This is where I think she gets myopic. Mysticism has its uses also. Who is inspired to love one's enemies (and potentially make peace) through absolute logic? Who is inspired to end oppression by mere logic? These efforts to free humanity from the greatest tragedies to not come from absolute logic -- they are motivated by human compassion and a sense of justice -- those are things that come from the heart -- not the head. This is what mystics see and Rand shows her myopia in missing their worth.

Or, as Spock might say, "It is not logical, but it is often true."
Excellent point, just wanted to highlight it. *still tapped out of frubals :sad:*
 

Mathematician

Reason, and reason again
Capitalist.

Enough said :)

Yep, unfortunately. :foot:

I've read parts of Atlas Shrugged and, probably less than others here, studied Objectivism. I would call her a capitalist version of Orwell, with more Russian spunk.
 

applewuud

Active Member
doppelgänger;876152 said:
It's interesting how both Rand and Orwell are understood as writing against Soviet "Communism," yet they reach directly opposite philosophical conclusions - with Orwell recognizing the pervasive power of the mind to fashion an illusory reality as the very means by which oppressive states operate.

In the part I'm reading now (Galt's radio speech) Rand may be agreeing with Orwell, but she combines oppressive theocracy with oppressive government as both getting people to "blank out" with an illusory reality to control them:

"The mystics of both schools...tell you that they possess a means of knowledge higher than the mind, a mode of consciousness superior to reason--like a special pull with some bureaucrat of the universe who gives them secret tips withheld from others. The mystics of spirit declare that they possess an extra sense you lack: this special sixth sense consists of contradicting the whole of the knowledge of your five....

"They claim that they perceive a mode of being superior to your existence on this earth. The mystics of spirit call it 'another dimension,' which consists of denying dimensions. The mystics of muscle call it 'the future,' which consists of denying the present.........

"From the rites of the jungle witch-doctors, which distorted reality into grotesque absurdities, stunted the minds of their victims and kept them in terror of the supernatural for stagnant stretches of centuries--to the supernatural doctrines of the Middle Ages, which kept men huddling on the mud floors of their hovels, in in terror that the devil might steal the soup they had worked 18 hours to earn--to that seedy little smiling professor who assures you that your brain has no capacity to think, that you have no means of perception and must blindly obey the omnipotent will of that supernatural force: Society--all of it is the same performance for the same and only purpose: to reduce you to the kind of pulp that has surrendered the validity of its consciousness."


I wonder what philosophy professors Ayn Rand had who were saying the mind had no capacity to think and there were no absolutes? She makes it seem as if they were dominant in society.
 

applewuud

Active Member
Really? I would've thought it more of a driver behind the libertarian movement, but then as I live in Georgia and we may be one of the most libertarian-minded states these days, I may be guilty of a limited view of her effect on current thinking.

Yes, libertarianism was influenced by her, but the Objectivists say they're not in agreement with them...Hartmann points to her view (expressed in "Atlas") that the only proper role for government is as a police force, and that taxes should be lowered to a minimum, etc. as neocon touchstones.

How would she be going against the intellectual tide of her time, when the country was held in the grip of anti-Communist paranoia? :confused: She seems to have been very much in tune with her times, except for that segment in society that demanded a fair share for their own efforts and had to resort to unions to be heard. But then, in 1957 being part of a union nearly got you called a pinko...so again...how was she going against the tide?

The 1950s had a much higher rate of union membership than today, and "godless communism" was the enemy...and Rand was an atheist and openly expressive of that fact. She is also outspoken in support of healthy sexuality...in fact a subplot of "Atlas" is Hank Rearden's overcoming his sexual guilt complex. The only reason her work was "in tune" was that she was seen as being anti-Communist; reading her now, I can see that she was anti-New Deal, as well. By today's standards, Eisenhower was a liberal.

This is where I think she gets myopic. Mysticism has its uses also. Who is inspired to love one's enemies (and potentially make peace) through absolute logic? Who is inspired to end oppression by mere logic? These efforts to free humanity from the greatest tragedies to not come from absolute logic -- they are motivated by human compassion and a sense of justice -- those are things that come from the heart -- not the head. This is what mystics see and Rand shows her myopia in missing their worth.

Or, as Spock might say, "It is not logical, but it is often true."

Rand makes an interesting argument that if reason ruled, there would be no enemies. She'd say that oppression comes through denying logic, and denying reason and suppressing "the mind" has caused the greatest tragedies in history. As for the heart vs. the head, I'll try to come up with a quote from her and let her speak her piece.


How does the Bush administration enter into it? They are accused of rank incompetence from many sides, including what is supposedly their own (there are a lot of very upset fiscal conservatives out there!).

I would think if Rand were alive today to comment, she would have no use at all for the neocons, because they appear in no way to be people of accomplishment, unless you consider it an accomplishment to enrich your cronies, accrue power like any member of the old Politburo might have, and then run away with your tail between your legs...just before you get caught.

I cannot imagine how Rand might've approved of today's events. She doesn't seem to have had much use for the craven or for anyone less than up front about their meaning.

True enough, except perhaps as they see themselves. Cheney could be seeing himself as Howard Roark, standing bravely alone against the ignorant tide. You're correct that Rand would have disavowed them as the manipulators of government for special interests, which she skewers again and again in the book.

Thanks for responding, I have a lot of thinking to do on this and it's nice to have your perspective.
 

Booko

Deviled Hen
In the part I'm reading now (Galt's radio speech) Rand may be agreeing with Orwell, but she combines oppressive theocracy with oppressive government as both getting people to "blank out" with an illusory reality to control them:

"The mystics of both schools...tell you that they possess a means of knowledge higher than the mind, a mode of consciousness superior to reason--like a special pull with some bureaucrat of the universe who gives them secret tips withheld from others. The mystics of spirit declare that they possess an extra sense you lack: this special sixth sense consists of contradicting the whole of the knowledge of your five....

"They claim that they perceive a mode of being superior to your existence on this earth. The mystics of spirit call it 'another dimension,' which consists of denying dimensions. The mystics of muscle call it 'the future,' which consists of denying the present.........

"From the rites of the jungle witch-doctors, which distorted reality into grotesque absurdities, stunted the minds of their victims and kept them in terror of the supernatural for stagnant stretches of centuries--to the supernatural doctrines of the Middle Ages, which kept men huddling on the mud floors of their hovels, in in terror that the devil might steal the soup they had worked 18 hours to earn--to that seedy little smiling professor who assures you that your brain has no capacity to think, that you have no means of perception and must blindly obey the omnipotent will of that supernatural force: Society--all of it is the same performance for the same and only purpose: to reduce you to the kind of pulp that has surrendered the validity of its consciousness."


I wonder what philosophy professors Ayn Rand had who were saying the mind had no capacity to think and there were no absolutes? She makes it seem as if they were dominant in society.

She seems to confuse mystics with religious leaders (of the authoritarian variety).

Mystics are generally very humble people, and while they may provide a signpost for the rest of us, are not historically in the habit of ordering people about. *wonders who Rumi oppressed and controled*

Too bad Rand didn't understand religion better.
 
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