"BADAA"

[faroukfarouk]

Salaams to all
Do Shia's believe of "Badaa"?
For the ignorant the word "Badaa" means that Allah does not have knowledge of everything.

 

[mojtaba]

Pease be upon all of my brothers and sisters.
Yes. We firmly believe in " Bada' (بداء) ". But Bada' never means that Allah( Knower of the unseen and the witnessed ) does not have knowledge of everything.

Usul al-Kafi, vol.1, Kitab Ul – Tawheed, Section al-Bada‟, Hadith no.1:
Imam Sadiq(a.s.): "Allah’s Greatness is not realized as good as it is realized with belief in al-Bada'."

Usul Kafi, vol.1, Kitab Ul – Tawheed, Section al-Bada‟, Hadith no.12:
Imam Sadiq(a.s.): Had the people known of the reward in the belief in al-Bada' there would have been no weakness in their words about it."

Usul al-Kafi, vol.1, Kitab Ul – Tawheed, Section al-Bada‟, Hadith no.15:
Imam al-Rida(a.s.): "Allah never sent a prophet without the law that prohibits the use of wine and without belief in al-Bada' ".
------------------------------------------
Usul al-Kafi, vol.1, Kitab Ul – Tawheed, Section al-Bada‟, Hadith no.10:
Imam Sadiq(a.s.): "Al-Bada' does not takke place to Allah out of ignorance."

Usul al-Kafi, vol.1, Kitab Ul – Tawheed, Section al-Bada‟, Hadith no.9:
Imam Sadiq(a.s.): "Nothing appeared to Allah in a thing except that He knew it before al-Bada' would take place."
-----------------------------------------

In Arabic, the word “bada’” literally means “manifestation” and “appearance”, and in the parlance of Shi‘ah scholars it applies to the change in the natural course of someone’s destiny as a result of his or her righteous and wholesome behavior. The question of bada’ is one of the lofty summits of the dynamic Shi‘i school, which springs from the logic of revelation and intellectual investigation.

From the viewpoint of the Holy Qur’an, man is not always hindered from deciding on his destiny; rather, the path of felicity is open for him, and by reverting to the right path and meritorious conduct he can change the ultimate destination of his life. The Qur’an points to this truth as a universal and permanent principle as follows:
“Indeed Allah does not change a people’s lot, unless they change what is in their souls.”1
It also says elsewhere:
“If the people of the towns had been faithful and God-wary, We would have opened to them blessings from the heaven and the earth.”2
And regarding the change in the destiny of Hadrat Yunus (Jonah) (‘a), it says:
“And had he not been one of those who celebrate Allah’s glory, he would have surely remained in its belly till the day they will be resurrected.”3
Apparently, the latter verse indicates that Prophet Yunus (‘a) would have remained in that particular prison (belly of whale) till the Day of Resurrection were it not for his meritorious conduct (glorifying Allah) which resulted in changing the course of his destiny and safety.

This truth has also been acknowledged by the Islamic traditions. In this regard, the Holy Prophet (S) says:

إن الرجل ليحرم الرزق بالذنب يصيبه ولا يردّ القدر إلا الدعاء ولا يزيد في العمر إلا البرّ.

It is due to his sin that one is deprived of his sustenance, and there is nothing that can change one’s destiny and fate except supplications and there is nothing that can prolong one’s lifespan except good deeds.4
From this and similar hadiths, it can be deduced that on account of man’s sins and disobedience, he is deprived of sustenance but his meritorious acts like supplication can change the course of his destiny and his good deeds can prolong his lifespan.
Conclusion
It can be inferred from the verses of the Qur’an and the Sunnah that the destiny of so many a man is determined, within the framework of his common behavior, on the basis of natural cause and effect and ordinary order of the interplay of actions, and man may be informed by one of the awliya’ of God, prophets or Imams, for example, if this kind of conduct of this person continues, he will face the stated fate, but due to a sudden shift, a different behavior would surface and result in a change in his destiny.

This truth which stems from the logic of revelation, Sunnah of the Prophet (S) and sound intellectual investigation is referred to by the Shi‘ah scholars as bada’.

 

[mojtaba]

It is worth noticing that explaining bada’ is among the salient features of Shi‘ism, but this word is also found in the writings of the Ahl as-Sunnah and the speeches of the Holy Prophet (S). For example, the Prophet (S) has used the term “bada' (بداء)’” in the hadith below:

Sahih al-Bukhari, Vol. 4, Book 55, Hadith 670:
إِنَّ ثَلاَثَةً فِي بَنِي إِسْرَائِيلَ أَبْرَصَ وَأَقْرَعَ وَأَعْمَى٬ بَدَا لِلَّهِ أَنْ يَبْتَلِيَهُمْ

“There were three Israelis who were a Leper, a blind man and a bald-headed man. So bada’ a( the verb of bada') for Allah to examine them.”
----------------------------
It is necessary to note that the idea of bada’ does not mean that the change will occur in God’s knowledge because God is aware from the beginning of the natural course of man’s behavior and of the effect of the transformative elements which cause bada’, and He does point to this fact in the Qur’an:

"يمحوا الله ما يشاء ويُثبت وعنده أم الكتاب."

“Allah effaces and confirms whatever He wishes and with Him is the Mother of the Book.”5

Therefore, at the occurrence of bada’ God, the Exalted, ma'nifests to us the truth, which has been known to Him from the very beginning of existence. As such, Imam as-Sadiq (‘a) says:

"ما بدا الله في شئ إلا كان في علمه قبل أن يبدوله."

“Bada’ has never happened unless God is aware of it from the very beginning of existence.”6

 

[mojtaba]

The philosophy behind bada’

No doubt, if man knows that he has access to changing his own destiny, he will be at the threshold of building a better future and will endeavor with a better spirit and greter efforts to improve his conduct in life.

In other words, just as repentance {tawbah} and intercession {shafa‘ah} save man from feeling of hopelessness and getting bored in life, the truth of bada’ brings to him mirth and joy and makes him full of optimism for the future. With this outlook, man knows that he can, through the decree of God, the Exalted, change his destiny and move toward a better future and more splendorous destiny.

Source: Question 15: What is bada’ and why do you believe in it? | The Shia Rebuts | Books on Islam and Muslims | Al-Islam.org

-------------------------------------------

• 1. Surah ar-Ra‘d 13:11.
• 2. Surah al-A‘raf 7:96.
• 3. Surah as-Saffat 37:143-144.
• 4. Musnad Ahmad ibn Hanbal, vol. 5, p. 277; Mustadrak al-Hakim, vol. 1, p. 493; and a similar narration in At-Taj al-Jami‘ li’l-Usul, vol. 5, p. 111.
• 5. Surah ar-Ra‘d 13:39.
• 6. Usul al-Kafi, vol. 1, “Kitab at-Tawhid,” “Bab al-Bada’,” hadith 9.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Salaams brother
The Shi’a concept of Bada’ thoroughly explained through the words of Ayatollah Morteza Motahhari
“In Islam there is an issue called bada' (revision). The concept of bada' has an apparent meaning which few would regard as acceptable. Some have even criticized the Shi'ah for believing in bada'. The meaning of bada' is revision in Divine Destiny (qada'), meaning that God has not fixed a definite and final form for the course of human history. In other words, God Says to man: "You yourselves are in charge of the fulfilment of Divine Destiny, and it is you who can advance, stop or reverse the course of history." There is no blind determinism either on the part of nature or the means of life or from the viewpoint of Divine Destiny, to rule over history.”

Mojtaba
Do you accept the above meaning of Ayatollah Morteza Motahhari?
Salaams

 

[mojtaba]

Salaams brother
The Shi’a concept of Bada’ thoroughly explained through the words of Ayatollah Morteza Motahhari
“In Islam there is an issue called bada' (revision). The concept of bada' has an apparent meaning which few would regard as acceptable. Some have even criticized the Shi'ah for believing in bada'. The meaning of bada' is revision in Divine Destiny (qada'), meaning that God has not fixed a definite and final form for the course of human history. In other words, God Says to man: "You yourselves are in charge of the fulfilment of Divine Destiny, and it is you who can advance, stop or reverse the course of history." There is no blind determinism either on the part of nature or the means of life or from the viewpoint of Divine Destiny, to rule over history.”

Mojtaba
Do you accept the above meaning of Ayatollah Morteza Motahhari?
Salaams

Salamon alaykom wa Rahmato-Allah.
Yes.
This is the meaning of the 13:11 :
Indeed, Allah will not change the condition of a people until they change what is in themselves.

But brother consider this that, although Allah Ta'ala has not fixed a definite form for the course of human history, but He knows what we will choose in future and knows indefinite form of the course of human history. Bada' has a copmlex concept, please try to understant it before rejecting it. If Allah fixes a definite destiny for us, so we are forced and compelled by Allah to commit sins or good deeds.
For example, suppose a person who smokes and if he continues smoking, he will die at 17/12/2015. But he quit smoking. Hence, Allah changed his death time, so he will die at 17/12/2017.( [13:39] Allah effaces and confirms whatever He wishes and with Him is the Mother of the Book ).
Indeed, before he quit smoking, Allah had been knowing he would stop smoking( Imam Sadiq(a.s.): "Nothing appeared to Allah in a thing except that He knew it before al-Bada' would take place". ). But before quitting, Allah set his death time at 2015 and after that, He set it at 2017.
This is an example for Bada'.

Usul al-Kafi, vol.1, Kitab Ul – Tawheed, Section al-Bada'‟, Hadith no. 2:
Imam Sadiq said about 13:39( Allah effaces and confirms whatever He wishes . . . ): "Can anything be effaced without being established?* Can anything be esblished unless it is out of nothing**?"

* the death time at 2015.
** the death time at 2017.

If you have any question, ask it.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Salamon alaykom wa Rahmato-Allah.
Yes.
This is the meaning of the 13:11 :
Indeed, Allah will not change the condition of a people until they change what is in themselves.

But brother consider this that, although Allah Ta'ala has not fixed a definite form for the course of human history, but He knows what we will choose in future and knows indefinite form of the course of human history. Bada' has a copmlex concept, please try to understant it before rejecting it. If Allah fixes a definite destiny for us, so we are forced and compelled by Allah to commit sins or good deeds.
For example, suppose a person who smokes and if he continues smoking, he will die at 17/12/2015. But he quit smoking. Hence, Allah changed his death time, so he will die at 17/12/2017.( [13:39] Allah effaces and confirms whatever He wishes and with Him is the Mother of the Book ).
Indeed, before he quit smoking, Allah had been knowing he would stop smoking( Imam Sadiq(a.s.): "Nothing appeared to Allah in a thing except that He knew it before al-Bada' would take place". ). But before quitting, Allah set his death time at 2015 and after that, He set it at 2017.
This is an example for Bada'.

Usul al-Kafi, vol.1, Kitab Ul – Tawheed, Section al-Bada'‟, Hadith no. 2:
Imam Sadiq said about 13:39( Allah effaces and confirms whatever He wishes . . . ): "Can anything be effaced without being established?* Can anything be esblished unless it is out of nothing**?"
* the death time at 2015.
** the death time at 2017.
If you have any question, ask it.

Wailaikum Salaam brother.
Ok lets look at your example.
Allah knew that the person death will occur in 2015.
Now after he stops smoking Allah changed his death to 2017.
Which simply means that Allah did not have prior knowledge that his death will occur in 2017.
Do you agree.
Salaams

 

[mojtaba]

Wailaikum Salaam brother.
Ok lets look at your example.
Allah knew that the person death will occur in 2015.
Now after he stops smoking Allah changed his death to 2017.
Which simply means that Allah did not have prior knowledge that his death will occur in 2017.
Do you agree.
Salaams

My brother please read my saying completely.
I did not say that Allah knew that the person death will occur in 2015.
On the contrary, I said that Allah before changing the time of the person death from 2015 to 2017, was knowing he will die at 2017.

Indeed, before he quit smoking, Allah had been knowing he would stop smoking( Imam Sadiq(a.s.): "Nothing appeared to Allah in a thing except that He knew it before al-Bada' would take place". ). But before quitting, Allah set his death time at 2015 and after that, He set it at 2017.

Indeed, Allah changes our fate according to our deeds, also He knows what we will optionally do in future. This is the truth of Bada'.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Salaams brother Mojtaba
Maaf for the mis-understanding.
So just to sum up what you state so that i can understand you better.
Allah Ta'ala can revise our destiny according to our deeds.We,humans, are in charge of our own destiny and Allah Ta'ala is fully aware of what our destiny will be.
Badaa occurs in the knowledge of Allah Ta'ala.
Hoping i got that right.

 

[mojtaba]

Salaams brother Mojtaba
Maaf for the mis-understanding.
So just to sum up what you state so that i can understand you better.
Allah Ta'ala can revise our destiny according to our deeds.We,humans, are in charge of our own destiny and Allah Ta'ala is fully aware of what our destiny will be.
Badaa occurs in the knowledge of Allah Ta'ala.
Hoping i got that right.

Salamon alaykum wa Rahmato-Allah my dear brother.

1- In this case, Bada' = the change or revision in the destiny of a person.

2-Allah changes our destiny accordind to our deeds. For example if a student tries, Allah succeeds him in his study life. But if he doesn't try, Allah does not succeed him. However, Allah Ta'ala knows he will try or not, Allah knows the student will succeed or not.

3- Bada' doesn't occur in the knowledge of Allah(Knower of the unseen and the witnessed). Bada' occurs in our destiny, which Allah sets it according to our deeds.

If you think that these are not clear, ask your questions which are in your mind.

 

[faroukfarouk]

walaikum salam brother.
Sorry i am confused with no 3.
You say Badaa does not occur in the knowledge of Allah but you quote following from Imam Sadiq(a.s.):
"Nothing appeared to Allah in a thing except that He knew it before al-Bada' would take place".
Please explain contradiction.
Salaams

 

[Khudayar]

Wailaikum Salaam brother.
Ok lets look at your example.
Allah knew that the person death will occur in 2015.
Now after he stops smoking Allah changed his death to 2017.
Which simply means that Allah did not have prior knowledge that his death will occur in 2017.
Do you agree.
Salaams

Salam. Brother Farouk, as far as I know (I was raised in a sunni family) bada is there in sunni sources also (not by name but by essence).

For instance, there are narrations in both sunni and shia sources that silaturahmi (keeping the relationship with people), zakaat (charity and almsgiving) and other things prolong the life. So, you can apply your questions to your sect also.

If silaturrahmi prolongs the life, then there first has to be a specific date of death in order to prolong it, right? Is God not aware of that time? He is aware. Then silaturrahmi prolongs it to a further time. God is aware of that also.

Thus, Islam says that one determines his own fate according to his actions. And a person flees from one destiny to another.

Or a Quranic example:

"He said: O my people! Surely I am a plain warner to you: That you should serve Allah and be careful of (your duty to) Him and obey me: He will forgive you some of your faults and grant you a delay to an appointed term; surely the term of Allah when it comes is not postponed; did you but know!" [Quran, 71:2-4]

The appointed time is not postponed for them UNLESS they repent and become obedient to God. Thus, obedience delays the appointed term. Is God not aware of both the appointed term and the delayed one? He is.

So, there are multiple fates which people determine according to their own actions.

As for the topic, if you are interested in the subject, brother Farouk, then please refer to the book by Ayatollah Mutahhari on Destiny:

Man and His Destiny | Books on Islam and Muslims | Al-Islam.org

If I am not mistaken, part 8 adresses your questions. ma salam.

 

[faroukfarouk]

As-salamu alaykum brother Khudayar and welcome to the discussion.

Firstly i wish to make it very clear that we,the Ahl al-Sunna wa al-Jama`a,distance ourselves from the beliefs of Badaa.Our beliefs may look similar but in reality there are distances apart.Allah willing, if time avails, i will put the Ahl al-Sunna wa al-Jama`a beliefs in the Sunni thread.
Now lets look at Ayatollah Mutahhari article.
He mentions about a "definite law".If a person having a certain physical standard should live upto 150 years of age provided they take care of their health and at the same token if such a person do not take care of their life will be reduced to one half. And he mentions these laws are the manifestations of divine practice.
My questions.
1.What is written in the al-lawh al-mahfûz (The Preserved Tablet) 150 years or 75 years?
2.Does Badaa occurs in the knowledge of Allah Ta'ala or not?
Salaams
faroukfarouk

 

[Khudayar]

wa salaikum salam.

It is no different after all. If you suppose it is different, then either you are misunderstanding the shia Islamic viewpoint, or you are misinterpreting the abovementioned verses and narrations which I quoted just to say that they differ. They do not differ. And you should interpret the shia Islamic narrations, just like you interpret the sunni narrations.

I really am not into your sunni-shia discussions. It seems not necessary to me. But my point was and is that it is a thing which sunnis and shias agree on. Why don't you question your sect before questioning your brother sect?

i.e. Why don't you say to yourself: "Quran (71/1-4) mention that repentance and Sunni narrations mention that silaturrahmi delays the appointed death time. Is God not aware of that appointed time? Then repentance or silaturrahmi prolongs it to a further time. Is God not aware of that time, too?

1- What is written in al-lawh al-mahfuz? The appointed time or the delayed-proloned time?
2- Does this occur in the knowledge of God?"

Again, my point is not discussion. It is to show how we should treat the brother madhabs.

But, if you still insist, then you can discuss with respected brother Mojtaba. But make sure you explain and elaborate your second question, because it is not clear what you mean.

ma salam

 

[mojtaba]

As-salamu alaykum brother Khudayar and welcome to the discussion.

Firstly i wish to make it very clear that we,the Ahl al-Sunna wa al-Jama`a,distance ourselves from the beliefs of Badaa.Our beliefs may look similar but in reality there are distances apart.Allah willing, if time avails, i will put the Ahl al-Sunna wa al-Jama`a beliefs in the Sunni thread.
Now lets look at Ayatollah Mutahhari article.
He mentions about a "definite law".If a person having a certain physical standard should live up-to 150 years of age provided they take care of their health and at the same token if such a person do not take care of their life will be reduced to one half. And he mentions these laws are the manifestations of divine practice.
My questions.
1.What is written in the al-lawh al-mahfûz (The Preserved Tablet) 150 years or 75 years?
2.Does Badaa occurs in the knowledge of Allah Ta'ala or not?
Salaams
faroukfarouk

Assalamo alayka brother.

You asked two questions:

1.What is written in the al-lawh al-mahfûz (The Preserved Tablet) 150 years or 75 years?

It is written in the al-lawh al-mahfûz what the person will choose. Indeed, al-Lawh al-mahfûz (The Preserved Tablet) is the eternal knowledge of Allah. Al-Lawh al-mahfûz is not a tablet which Allah( Sobhanaho wa Ta'ala ) writes our destiny on it!
So it is wrriten in al-Lawh al-mahfûz which we will optionally choose( = Allah knows which we will optionally choose and do ).
And about your question, Allah knows this that the person will die after 150 or 75 years and it is written in the al-lawh al-mahfûz (The Preserved Tablet) which Allah knows.

2.Does Bada' occurs in the knowledge of Allah Ta'ala or not?

Please elaborate your question.
Does this mean that knowledge of Allah changes?
or means: "Allah before changing a person destiny according to his deeds, knows this that change will occur?

 

[faroukfarouk]

wa salaikum salam.

It is no different after all. If you suppose it is different, then either you are misunderstanding the shia Islamic viewpoint, or you are misinterpreting the abovementioned verses and narrations which I quoted just to say that they differ. They do not differ. And you should interpret the shia Islamic narrations, just like you interpret the sunni narrations.
I really am not into your sunni-shia discussions. It seems not necessary to me. But my point was and is that it is a thing which sunnis and shias agree on. Why don't you question your sect before questioning your brother sect?
i.e. Why don't you say to yourself: "Quran (71/1-4) mention that repentance and Sunni narrations mention that silaturrahmi delays the appointed death time. Is God not aware of that appointed time? Then repentance or silaturrahmi prolongs it to a further time. Is God not aware of that time, too?
1- What is written in al-lawh al-mahfuz? The appointed time or the delayed-proloned time?
2- Does this occur in the knowledge of God?"
Again, my point is not discussion. It is to show how we should treat the brother madhabs.
But, if you still insist, then you can discuss with respected brother Mojtaba. But make sure you explain and elaborate your second question, because it is not clear what you mean.
ma salam

As-salamu alaykum brother Khudayar
First and foremost there is no misunderstanding from my side.Actually the misunderstanding is from you.You can find the belief of the Ahl al-Sunna wa al-Jama`a on Predestination and Free Will on the ff thread.
The Beliefs of Ahl al-Sunna wa al-Jama | ReligiousForums.com

Well its rather sad that you post in the discussion and when questions are asked about your beliefs you wish to turn your back..
Finally note there is only 4 Madhabs in Islam and we all belong to the Ahl al-Sunna wa al-Jama`a .So far as Shiaism being a Madhab is cheap propaganda.
Salaams and may Allah Ta'ala guide you.
faroukfarouk

 

[Khudayar]

Of course I turn my back to sectarian-timewasting discussions. I am not a jobless person. I have work to do, family and people to take care of. etc.

However, if you are willing to, then you can discuss with the shia Muslim brethren here and not with me.

As for your "cheap propaganda" of there being 4 jurisprudential sects in Islam where do you get that silly idea? Did the Holy Prophet bring 4 sects? And told people to limit their views into 4? Of course not.

Thus limiting the views to 4 is an innovation and thus to be rejected. It was Baibars, the king of Egypt, who founded a school and let 4 scholars preach the jurisprudence of their sects while ignoring others (later, when Ottomans invaded Egypt, they took this innovation of limitation and spread it to everywhere). And while the Muslims were limiting religion to certain sects and treating others as deviations, Baibars and his successors were enjoying their rules. Just like the secular dictates in Egypt, Turkey, Pakistan, Azarbaijan etc. do now. I mean, while some stupid people in those countries got into sectarianism and become busy with each other and call each other deviated etc., their secular rulers enjoy their rules over Muslims.

Again, I am not that dumb to live in a secular state and become busy with religious Muslims of different sects. I would rather act in accordance with all religious and non-religious folks against secular subserviant dictates.

 

[faroukfarouk]

Walaikum salam brother Mojtaba.

1.What is written in the al-lawh al-mahfûz (The Preserved Tablet) 150 years or 75 years?
It is written in the al-lawh al-mahfûz what the person will choose. Indeed, al-Lawh al-mahfûz (The Preserved Tablet) is the eternal knowledge of Allah. Al-Lawh al-mahfûz is not a tablet which Allah( Sobhanaho wa Ta'ala ) writes our destiny on it!
So it is wrriten in al-Lawh al-mahfûz which we will optionally choose( = Allah knows which we will optionally choose and do ).
And about your question, Allah knows this that the person will die after 150 or 75 years and it is written in the al-lawh al-mahfûz (The Preserved Tablet) which Allah knows.

So whatever the person chose is written in the al-Lawh al-mahfûz (The Preserved Tablet).
Now how does this effect the "lawhu 'l-mahw wa 'l-ithbat” ( the tablet that can be erased and re-written)?
Please explain using the same example of 75 and 150 years.

My question regarding Bada occuring in the knowlede of Allah or not is in response to your ff statement.

Bada' doesn't occur in the knowledge of Allah(Knower of the unseen and the witnessed). Bada' occurs in our destiny, which Allah sets it according to our deeds.

Please explain fully what you mean by Bada does not occur in the knowledge of Allah.

Jazakallah for your time and effort.
Salaam
faroukfarouk

 

[Khudayar]

He doesn't mean God is not aware of it. He simply says that BADAA is something which takes place in the destiny.

He is saying where it takes place by the phrase "in". He stresses where badaa takes place. It is a misunderstanding due to the difference of the structures in languages.

 

[faroukfarouk]

He doesn't mean God is not aware of it. He simply says that BADAA is something which takes place in the destiny.
He is saying where it takes place by the phrase "in". He stresses where badaa takes place. It is a misunderstanding due to the difference of the structures in languages.

Salaams brother Khudayar
It seems you do have time.
I am still confused because it sounds like you talking in cycles.
Please explain what you mean by "where" using the 75 and 150 years example.
Jazakallah
Salaams
faroukfarouk