christallen
Cynical Optimist
I have recently started learning Esperanto, and I read on wikipedia (of course) that some Baha'i feel that it could be used as a worldwide language. What are your thoughts on this matter?
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Baha'i and Esperanto
- Thread starter christallen
- Start date
dust1n
Zindīq
As a young but budding Esperantist, I would like to say...
Mi certe esperi estas homoj sur ĉi tiuj forumoj ke juste fariĝ al paroli Esperanton hazarde. Kiuj ..us tre la eduka sperto por mi, kiel Mi estas aktuale prov lerni la lingvo. Chris tie ĉi scias tre la kvanton de la lingvo.
Mi certe esperi estas homoj sur ĉi tiuj forumoj ke juste fariĝ al paroli Esperanton hazarde. Kiuj ..us tre la eduka sperto por mi, kiel Mi estas aktuale prov lerni la lingvo. Chris tie ĉi scias tre la kvanton de la lingvo.
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arthra
Baha'i
You'll pardon me if I reply in English..
The principal of having a universal language in additional to your (our) own as an auxilary has long been a Baha'i principal...and Esperanto was early on encouraged by several early Baha'is soon after Esperanto was introduced and as you may know Esperanto was accepted by the League of Nations.. anyway the actual language whether Esperanto or another language to be adopted by say a future world body is the crucial issue in our view and not which language as such.
But here are some references you may appreciate..
From Baha'u'llah:
We have formerly ordained that people should converse in two languages, yet efforts must be made to reduce them to one, likewise the scripts of the world, that men’s lives may not be dissipated and wasted in learning divers languages. Thus the whole earth would come to be regarded as one city and one land..
~ KALÍMÁT-I-FIRDAWSÍYYIH (Words of Paradise)
Esperanto
A friend enquired concerning Bahá'u'lláh's prophecy in the Words of Paradise, that a universal language would be formed, and desired to know if Esperanto would be the language chosen.
"The love and effort put into Esperanto will not be lost," he answered, "but no one person can construct a Universal Language. It must be made by a Council representing all countries, and must contain words from different languages. It will be governed by the simplest rules, and there will be no exceptions; neither will there be gender, nor extra and silent letters. Everything indicated will have but one name. In Arabic there are hundreds of names for the camel! In the schools of each nation the mother tongue will be taught, as well as the revised Universal Language."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 93)
Praise be to God, that Dr. Zamenhof has constructed the Esperanto language. It has all the potential qualities of universal adoption. All of us must be grateful and thankful to him for his noble effort, for in this matter he has served his fellow-man well. He has done a service which will bestow divine benefits on all peoples. With untiring effort and self-sacrifice on the part of its devotees it holds a promise of universal acceptance.
Therefore every one of us must study this language and make every effort to spread it, so that each day it may receive a wider recognition, be accepted by all nations and governments of the world and become a part of the curriculum of all the public schools. I hope that the business of the future international conferences and congresses will be carried on in Esperanto.
In the coming ages, two languages will be taught in the schools, one the native tongue, the other an international auxiliary language. Consider today how difficult is human communication. One may study fifty languages and travel through a country and still be at a loss. I myself speak several Oriental languages, but know no western tongue. Had this universal language pervaded the globe, I should have studied it and you would have been directly informed of my thoughts and I of yours and a special friendship would have been established between us.
Please send some teachers to Persia so that they may teach Esperanto to the younger generation. I have written asking some of them to come here to study it.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 144)
It's also to be noted that Lidia Zamenhof the youngest daughter of Dr. Zamenhof was also a Baha'i and was very active in promoting both Esperanto and the Baha'i Faith..
See:
Sketch of Life of Lidia Zamenhof
The principal of having a universal language in additional to your (our) own as an auxilary has long been a Baha'i principal...and Esperanto was early on encouraged by several early Baha'is soon after Esperanto was introduced and as you may know Esperanto was accepted by the League of Nations.. anyway the actual language whether Esperanto or another language to be adopted by say a future world body is the crucial issue in our view and not which language as such.
But here are some references you may appreciate..
From Baha'u'llah:
We have formerly ordained that people should converse in two languages, yet efforts must be made to reduce them to one, likewise the scripts of the world, that men’s lives may not be dissipated and wasted in learning divers languages. Thus the whole earth would come to be regarded as one city and one land..
~ KALÍMÁT-I-FIRDAWSÍYYIH (Words of Paradise)
Esperanto
A friend enquired concerning Bahá'u'lláh's prophecy in the Words of Paradise, that a universal language would be formed, and desired to know if Esperanto would be the language chosen.
"The love and effort put into Esperanto will not be lost," he answered, "but no one person can construct a Universal Language. It must be made by a Council representing all countries, and must contain words from different languages. It will be governed by the simplest rules, and there will be no exceptions; neither will there be gender, nor extra and silent letters. Everything indicated will have but one name. In Arabic there are hundreds of names for the camel! In the schools of each nation the mother tongue will be taught, as well as the revised Universal Language."
(Abdu'l-Baha, Abdu'l-Baha in London, p. 93)
Praise be to God, that Dr. Zamenhof has constructed the Esperanto language. It has all the potential qualities of universal adoption. All of us must be grateful and thankful to him for his noble effort, for in this matter he has served his fellow-man well. He has done a service which will bestow divine benefits on all peoples. With untiring effort and self-sacrifice on the part of its devotees it holds a promise of universal acceptance.
Therefore every one of us must study this language and make every effort to spread it, so that each day it may receive a wider recognition, be accepted by all nations and governments of the world and become a part of the curriculum of all the public schools. I hope that the business of the future international conferences and congresses will be carried on in Esperanto.
In the coming ages, two languages will be taught in the schools, one the native tongue, the other an international auxiliary language. Consider today how difficult is human communication. One may study fifty languages and travel through a country and still be at a loss. I myself speak several Oriental languages, but know no western tongue. Had this universal language pervaded the globe, I should have studied it and you would have been directly informed of my thoughts and I of yours and a special friendship would have been established between us.
Please send some teachers to Persia so that they may teach Esperanto to the younger generation. I have written asking some of them to come here to study it.
(Abdu'l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 144)
It's also to be noted that Lidia Zamenhof the youngest daughter of Dr. Zamenhof was also a Baha'i and was very active in promoting both Esperanto and the Baha'i Faith..
See:
Sketch of Life of Lidia Zamenhof
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christallen
Cynical Optimist
I didn't know that. That is very interesting.
Are there still Baha'i who speak Esperanto?
Boethiah
Penguin
I'm not the most educated Baha'i history and what not (still learning ), but I'd imagine there are Bahai's who speak it. Wikipedia states that anywhere between 200 and 1000 people learned it as their first language, but up to two million people at best are fluent in the language. Probably not an incredibly large group, but there are bound to be a few.
), but I'd imagine there are Bahai's who speak it. Wikipedia states that anywhere between 200 and 1000 people learned it as their first language, but up to two million people at best are fluent in the language. Probably not an incredibly large group, but there are bound to be a few.
BruceDLimber
Well-Known Member
Yes, indeed!
In fact, John Dale, a good friend of mine, was the one who translated Baha'u'llah and the New Era into Esperanto!
Best!
Bruce
Abu Rashid
Active Member
Esperanto is a universal language for Europeans, and even more specifically for Romance-speaking Europeans. There is little that is universal about it, other than the fact that it's pretty much universally unspoken.
It's a shame that linguists who attempt to construct such languages inevitably fall into the trap of using primarily only European languages as their base languages. This is probably largely due to the lack of knowledge of other languages at the time when these languages were constructed. But today there is ample knowledge about the various proto-languages of the world to come up with truly universal roots for a language that could rightfully claim the title of a universal auxiliary language
It's a shame that linguists who attempt to construct such languages inevitably fall into the trap of using primarily only European languages as their base languages. This is probably largely due to the lack of knowledge of other languages at the time when these languages were constructed. But today there is ample knowledge about the various proto-languages of the world to come up with truly universal roots for a language that could rightfully claim the title of a universal auxiliary language
I just discovered this site - way cool! - and this is my very first post here. I have been speaking Esperanto for years, so I hope that qualifies me to comment.
Esperanto's vocabulary - more precisely, its root stock - is indeed drawn predominantly from European languages, mostly Latinate, with some Germanic and a bit of Slavic. However, the features of the language (regular derivational word-building system that allows one to create words on the fly with great freedom; simple regular but flexible grammar; near absence of idioms) make it relatively easy to pick up, even for non-Indo-European speakers. True, they have to work a bit harder than Indo-Europeans, but not much harder. But we don't have to theorize: places where Esperanto is growing the fastest include decidedly non-European locations such as east Asia and parts of Africa, and testimonials by Asian Esperantists at http-COLON-//esperantofre.com/book/#asian speak to its ease of learning for them.
It's true that the 2,000,000 Esperanto speakers make up a very small minority of the world's population. However, they form a well-established community that is spread surprisingly evenly around the world. Esperanto ranks around 200th among the world's languages in terms of number of speakers; the remaining 7000 or so spoken by fewer people than Esperanto tend to be much more localized. Esperanto is certainly no more "universally unspoken" than any of those other languages. In fact, because of its global distribution, it is actually less "universally unspoken" than some languages with more speakers but more localized than Esperanto.
The approach of creating a universal language based on "universal roots" drawn from proto-languages will, unfortunately, result in a language that is, rather than being more familiar to everyone, equally unfamiliar to everyone. Esperanto never claimed to be perfect in any respect, only to work well for its stated purpose: to serve as a relatively easy-to-learn second language for use between people of differing native languages. 120 continuous years of use by an ever-growing worldwide community in every facet of life have shown it to be able to play such a role admirably well.
Esperanto's vocabulary - more precisely, its root stock - is indeed drawn predominantly from European languages, mostly Latinate, with some Germanic and a bit of Slavic. However, the features of the language (regular derivational word-building system that allows one to create words on the fly with great freedom; simple regular but flexible grammar; near absence of idioms) make it relatively easy to pick up, even for non-Indo-European speakers. True, they have to work a bit harder than Indo-Europeans, but not much harder. But we don't have to theorize: places where Esperanto is growing the fastest include decidedly non-European locations such as east Asia and parts of Africa, and testimonials by Asian Esperantists at http-COLON-//esperantofre.com/book/#asian speak to its ease of learning for them.
It's true that the 2,000,000 Esperanto speakers make up a very small minority of the world's population. However, they form a well-established community that is spread surprisingly evenly around the world. Esperanto ranks around 200th among the world's languages in terms of number of speakers; the remaining 7000 or so spoken by fewer people than Esperanto tend to be much more localized. Esperanto is certainly no more "universally unspoken" than any of those other languages. In fact, because of its global distribution, it is actually less "universally unspoken" than some languages with more speakers but more localized than Esperanto.
The approach of creating a universal language based on "universal roots" drawn from proto-languages will, unfortunately, result in a language that is, rather than being more familiar to everyone, equally unfamiliar to everyone. Esperanto never claimed to be perfect in any respect, only to work well for its stated purpose: to serve as a relatively easy-to-learn second language for use between people of differing native languages. 120 continuous years of use by an ever-growing worldwide community in every facet of life have shown it to be able to play such a role admirably well.
Abu Rashid
Active Member
Esperanto is a language for hobbyists, I don't think it's spoken for practical purposes by anyone. The fact some of these hobbyists come from other parts of the world doesn't change the fact it's still a hobby language.
Not necessarily. Proto-IE and Proto-Semitic for instance have a few common roots as do other groups. And if you're going to base it on which people it should be more familiar to, then it should be Mandarin Chinese, because it's the language with the most speakers in the world.
Even if Chinese is considered too foreign that it would upset the harmony of the language being created, Hindi/Urdu is Indo-European and Arabic (along with it's close cousin Hebrew) has long had a relationship of interaction with European languages and therefore should be easy to base some roots on it.
arthra
Baha'i
Once again friends I think I need to re-emphasize that while many Baha'is championed the cause of Esperanto especially in the early twentieth century, it is also true that we will let a world body decide what language will be spoken..
As Abdul-Baha mentioned while in London almost a hundred years ago:
"The love and effort put into Esperanto will not be lost," he answered, "but no one person can construct a Universal Language. It must be made by a Council representing all countries, and must contain words from different languages."
Yes there are Baha'is who speak Esperanto.. there was a Ligo of Baha'i Esperantists..
See the following:
http://www.bahaindex.com/links?mode=0&catid=225&navstart=0&search=*
Bahaa Esperanto-Ligo (BEL)
As Abdul-Baha mentioned while in London almost a hundred years ago:
"The love and effort put into Esperanto will not be lost," he answered, "but no one person can construct a Universal Language. It must be made by a Council representing all countries, and must contain words from different languages."
Yes there are Baha'is who speak Esperanto.. there was a Ligo of Baha'i Esperantists..
See the following:
http://www.bahaindex.com/links?mode=0&catid=225&navstart=0&search=*
Bahaa Esperanto-Ligo (BEL)
If making friends, around the corner or around the globe, in writing and in person, at times with the help of a worldwide hosting network of thousands of Esperanto speakers who put people up for the sole price of speaking Esperanto, is not a practical purpose; if meeting, falling in love, getting married, having children and raising a family, all in Esperanto, as experienced by thousands of couples, is not a practical purpose; if publication of thousands of original written works in Esperanto and thousands more in translation, including world literary masterpieces, is not a practical purpose; if marketing Esperanto localizations of widely used software, both desktop and Web-based, by reputable software developers, is not a practical purpose; if one country's postal service's yearly letter-answering program for children around the world writing to Santa Claus, with Esperanto as one of the supported languages, is not a practical purpose; if government-backed written and oral coverage in Esperanto of the Beijing Olympics through a government-financed Website and broadcasting company, with government-supplied on-site Esperanto interpretation services, is not a practical purpose; if an accredited university's international science academy with a working language of Esperanto that teaches and publishes in Esperanto is not a practical purpose; if a Catholic outreach program, including a regularly published magazine and radio broadcast, or a periodical ecumenical congress, or one Protestant pastor's regular inspirational newsletter, all in Esperanto, are not practical purposes - then I suppose you're right.
Esperanto's lexicon tends to maximum internationality - maximum recognizability by speakers of European languages, if you like. It's not an absolute rule, but the tendency is there. The total number of speakers of (Indo-European) European languages exceeds that of Mandarin; as far as choices of Esperanto lexicon go, there could be worse.
But in a way, that's beside the point. Esperanto never claimed to be a model of linguistic perfection, with maximal ease of learning, maximal recognizability, maximal coherence, maximal aesthetic appeal - just easy enough, recognizable enough, coherent enough and aesthetic enough to work for its stated purpose, which is to serve as an easy-to-learn but effective second language for use between people of different native languages. In that it has succeeded: it is several times easier to learn than national languages yet just as rich, and has been and is used in every facet of real life by a non-trivial sustained community from around the world.
Did you read the testimonials by Asian Esperanto speakers? Far from complaining about Esperanto's eurocentricity, those who actually take it up find it (relatively) easy to learn and use, much more so than, for example, English. If those who should have the most to complain about don't, why should anyone?
arthra
Baha'i
Thanks for your post Miĉjo!
Some years ago there was a very active Chinese Esperanto association that sent out a free journal.. I'm unsure if that's been continued..
but see:
china radio international
and see:
Esperanto FAQ: Part 9
Baha'u'llah envisioned the need for an international language a hundred and forty some years ago and it has been an important principle of the Baha'i faith ever since!
Some years ago there was a very active Chinese Esperanto association that sent out a free journal.. I'm unsure if that's been continued..
but see:
china radio international
and see:
Esperanto FAQ: Part 9
Baha'u'llah envisioned the need for an international language a hundred and forty some years ago and it has been an important principle of the Baha'i faith ever since!
Abu Rashid
Active Member
Seems you're mistaking beneficial for practical. Some people collect stamps for a hobby, and their hobby is very beneficial and rewarding for them, but their stamps are not a practical means of postage for sending letters.
This is true, but it's also because Hindi/Urdu/Persian are added in there, which wouldn't really be much help when learning Esperanto. The Indo-European group is a very vast and varied group.
A language can indeed be a hobby, and there are many Esperanto speakers for whom it is just that. There are also many people for whom French, or German, or Spanish, or Gaelic is just a hobby, but that doesn't preclude non-hobby use of these languages. People also gain a great deal of personal satisfaction through the use of other languages to achieve various objectives, but that doesn't necessarily make those languages hobbies for those people.
Please look again at the list I posted above of some of the things people actually do every day with Esperanto: make friends, travel, form couples, raise families, write real books, translate literature from other languages, take and teach university-level courses, publish original research, localize software, report news, proselyte - all with Esperanto, not as the topic or goal, but as the medium of expression. Any other language used that way on a regular basis would be called, not a hobby language, but a real, living, natural, bona fide language, personal satisfaction and the existence of hobbyists notwithstanding; and saying that Esperanto is a language for hobbyists, spoken for no practical purposes by anyone, is to deny these usages of the language and the people that use it in those ways.
I said "(Indo-European) European languages", which does not include the Indo-Iranian languages (at least, not significantly). The sum of the numbers of speakers of Spanish, English, Portuguese, Russian, German and French alone handily exceeds that of speakers of Mandarin, whether you look at just first-language speakers or first+second-language speakers.
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arthra
Baha'i
Hmmm... not really meaning to be a "spoil sport" here but it probably would be more appropriate to carry on this part of the discussion in a more shall we say debate format such as
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-debates/
http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/general-debates/