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Baha'i and Messengers
- Thread starter ppp
- Start date
Then why mention God or proselytise at all? How about talking about something that is common to all?
That is, if that is the honest answer.
Yet my honest answer is that God knows and has told us how creation started, it has always been, no beginning and no end. Yet our finite mind is unable to fathom the infinite.
The first few paragraphs in this document have been gifted for a wider understanding.
Tablet of the Universe
Regards Tony
Is this a fact that is used by science, and can be confirmed by our senses? Or a religious claim?
But we know that natural conditions can be unstable and changes occur due to the conditions itself. For example oily rags in a closed container can spontaneously combust.
There is no reason to assume the change in status of the singularity at the Big Bang event was caused by an external source, especially since there is no evidence of an external sour ce, nor that the Big Bang was a caused event.
So on what factual basis do you say that there was a "Someone" and that it caused any change in the status of existing material?
There is no predudices, they are all Loved.
Faith in God encompasses the athiest choice, it is the virtues that will unite us in our diversity.
Regards Tony
That is most likely our weaknesses, our misunderstandings.
Yet the greatest example of what it was to be a Baha'i and live the life, Abdul'baha still had people that saw him in a bad light? Abdul'baha always offered no one had to change faith, they had to live the core values of that faith and unity could be found.
So I am perplexed, how do we bring about our unity in our diversity, for the good of all humanity, if we all do not accept to embrace an accepted set of values?
Is this advice sound?
"The well-being of mankind, its peace and security, are unattainable unless and until its unity is firmly established. This unity can never be achieved so long as the counsels which the Pen of the Most High hath revealed are suffered to pass unheeded." (“Gleanings from the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh”, p. 286)
So that to me is the core values found in all God given Faiths, and yes Atheists can also embrace those values.
Regards Tony
This is from the Tablet Words of wisdom
"The essence of wisdom is the fear of God, the dread of His scourge and punishment, and the apprehension of His justice and decree...."
Bahá'í Reference Library - Tablets of Bahá’u’lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas, Pages 155-157
Regards Tony
No, this provides the result of how the human brain evolved over several hundred thousand years to believe in tribal norms and concepts. This has been useful for humans as it helped in community and social cohesion and trust. This was an advantage for survival. About 85% of humans today are "wired for God" or have innate traits to adopt a religious and political framework. Believers don't know why they are motivated to admit these norms, but they do.
Like any other trait there is a range of how much it is an influence. More fervent believers will work hard to build an explanation about why they believe in concepts that are not consistent with what we observe as true about reality. Many other theists are pretty passive, and we won't see them debate religion. They adopted the religion they ere exposed to and that set of ideas exist as superfluous beliefs. They may go to church once in a while, but they won't put much effort into it. They might be asked why they believe in God and they won't have any answer for it, as they just don't think much about it.
The more fervent type of believer, which seems you might be one of them, works hard to create and maintain the religious illusion. Theists can't cite any special powers or abilities as to why they think they can confirm supernatural ideas like God exists. But they will have a set of defenses, like the bogus cause and effect claim I just responded to. There are no facts to support any decision that a God exists. There are other, subconscious reasons. The conscious mind is largely unaware because of the subconscious operations that drive belief. The conscious mind just goes along with it, and tries to find a way to reconcile the serious conflicts the ideas have with what we observe as real.
This is another example of how the min d learns to reinforce and maintain beliefs that are not consistent with reality. A believer performs rituals over and over again and in time there has been so much time and effort invested it becomes difficult for the ego to acknowledge it is invested in nonsense. It would also suggest the self has poor judgment, which is embarrassing and shameful. the emotional response is to keep performing the rituals and investing more and more. This helps the brain find more reward from this behavior and thus the brain wants more.
Tests with fMRI and PET brain scans show this thinking process bypasses the frontal lobes completely, and lights up the emotion centers and rewards centers of the believer's brain. The behavior becomes habitual and it isn't subjected to any sort of rational scrutiny.
This is ironic. Religious belief is about the self and ego. What do you think is so invested in religion if not the ego? Renaming the ego as the spirit might be a temptation, but that rain would be an example of how the brain tries to avoid what is true and feeds an illusion that allows the beliefs to remain unquestioned.
Sure, the religion demand certain conditions and assumption be made, and only THEN can the person "see" God. This is how religions coerce vulnerable people into their dogma. And once a person enters this trap they are invested and have to keep working to build the illusion that the guru promises. What choice does a believer have? If you don't see their "truth" something is wrong with you. You don't want to be wrong, do you? No. You will end up seeing what they tell you to see.
We Never Know
No Slack
"Tests with MRI and PET brain scans show this thinking process bypasses the frontal lobes completely, and lights up the emotion centers and rewards centers of the believer's brain. The behavior becomes habitual and it isn't subjected to any sort of rational scrutiny"
Do you have links to that? I think that would be an interesting read. .
And what is this supposed to mean?
Use facts and whatever science you have available.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
And that's what Baha'is believe. But what do born-again Christians believe? What do Hindus believe? What do Buddhists believe? They don't necessarily believe the same as Baha'is. Or how about the Gods and Goddesses of the Polynesians?
In Hawaiian religion, Pele (pronounced [ˈpɛlɛ]) is the goddess of volcanoes and fire and the creator of the Hawaiian Islands. Often referred to as "Madame Pele" or "Tūtū Pele" as a sign of respect, she is a well-known deity within Hawaiian mythology and is notable for her contemporary presence and cultural influence as an enduring figure from ancient Hawaii.[1] Epithets of the goddess include Pele-honua-mea ("Pele of the sacred land") and Ka wahine ʻai honua ("The earth-eating woman").[2]
In different stories talking about the goddess Pele, she was born from the female spirit named Haumea. This spirit is important when talking about Hawaiʻi's gods as she descended from Papa, or Earth Mother, and Wakea, Sky Father, both descendants of the supreme beings.
I'm sure if you wanted to you could make some "symbolic" connections. But why can't these Gods, and maybe others considered as real, be nothing but myth?In different stories talking about the goddess Pele, she was born from the female spirit named Haumea. This spirit is important when talking about Hawaiʻi's gods as she descended from Papa, or Earth Mother, and Wakea, Sky Father, both descendants of the supreme beings.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Just give me a few specific quotes about Krishna and Hinduism, preferably from Baha'u'llah. Thanks.
It is in the book Emotional Intelligence by Dan Goleman.
I did a quick search to see if there are any excerpts. Dang, there are a lot of studies with EI.
Check this out, it looks interesting:
Divine Emotions: On the Link Between Emotional Intelligence and Religious Belief
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Do you think God has allowed for there to be this much confusion about religions in those other planets? It doesn't matter what came before. People and religions lost in the pre-historic past. Just with the religions we know of, and not just the major ones, they all have a very different set of beliefs and Gods and other divine beings and even evil spirit beings. And, even if some are absolutely true and from one God, I think some are completely and totally made up by people. And even some of the Bible stories sound that way to me too.
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
Is he even that? Did Muhammad, Moses, Buddha, Abraham believe they were this Baha'i thing, a manifestation. Which is supposed to be infallible and a perfect reflection of the attributes of God. Did any of those people claim or believe that is what they were? Jesus and Krishna are different. Their religions claim that they were something special and different and even beyond being merely a "manifestation" as Baha'is define it, but more like incarnations and that they were fully God in the flesh.
But why do Baha'is need to do this? Why can't Abraham just be a spiritual guy that listened to God? Why can't Moses be a guy that God chose for a mission, but was very, very human and not infallible? And Muhammad? What's wrong with just calling him a prophet? Was he also infallible and a perfect reflection of God?
And the other problem with "manifestations" is who are Baha'is going to call manifestations? Founders of a religion? One who brought a Holy Book with him? One who "revealed" new teachings from and about the one true God? One who had a vision and got information from an angel, an archangel, or a maid from heaven? Did Abraham bring a book or a new religion? If he did, then what religion and book did Moses bring? And on some Baha'i lists of manifestations, it includes Adam and Noah. Both from the same religion as Abraham and Moses.
Then there's Krishna... Was he the only avatar of the Hindu sect that believes and follows him? What about sects that have Shiva as their Supreme Lord? The Baha'i Faith works to "solve" these problems in very general and simplistic ways. It is enough for some people, because they don't know and don't care to know. They have their "new" manifestation. And he has given them a new message and that's what is most important to them. Which means, if your religion doesn't agree with the Baha'i Faith, it's your religion and your religious beliefs that are wrong, not the Baha'i Faith.
We Never Know
No Slack
Thanks. From the results it seems people with religious beliefs have high EI.
Is that what you got out of it?
CG Didymus
Veteran Member
As if Baha'is believe the story literally happened. But if you do, then God was on Earth and visible and talked to Adam and Eve in person. Or it's a fictional, mythical story, so Adam never really did eat some forbidden fruit and get cursed. And that means references to him in the NT are wrong also. Sin didn't enter the world through Adam. So, exactly what should Baha'is believe about Adam?
God set the trap for him. He put a smooth-talking serpent in the garden (and everyone knows you can't trust a talking serpent), who first deceived Eve, then she got Adam to take a bite. But the all-knowing God knew Adam would fall. But, because God is also all-loving, he provided a way out for humans several centuries later when God sent his Son to redeem mankind. Tough luck for the people that lived and died between that time.
Trailblazer
Veteran Member
Nobody knows what the deity "can do" except the deity. Atheists just think they know the deity can do anything because He is omnipotent. They don't bother to use any logic at all. They just keep repeating the same old mantra:
"God is omnipotent so God can do anything."
God cannot become a man and still be God because God is not a man.
God cannot kill Himself because God is eternal. The definition of an eternal is someone or something without a beginning or an end.
The problem is that atheists don't know jack squat about God because they reject the only source of information about God, Scriptures. Scriptures say that God is and has always been immensely exalted beyond all that can either be recounted or perceived, everlastingly hidden from the eyes of men. Such an entity can never be subject to piddly human logical analysis. That is totally illogical and irrational. What is absurd is to expect to be able to encapsulate an infinite God with piddly human logic.
There are no contradictions just because the deity does not CHOOSE to do what atheists expect Him to do. What IS illogical is for atheists to "believe" that the deity would do/should do what they expect Him to do. NOTHING could be more illogical, since the deity ONLY does what He wants to do and nothing more....
“Say: O people! Let not this life and its deceits deceive you, for the world and all that is therein is held firmly in the grasp of His Will. He bestoweth His favor on whom He willeth, and from whom He willeth He taketh it away. He doth whatsoever He chooseth.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, p. 209
“Say: He ordaineth as He pleaseth, by virtue of His sovereignty, and doeth whatsoever He willeth at His own behest.He shall not be asked of the things it pleaseth Him to ordain. He, in truth, is the Unrestrained, the All-Powerful, the All-Wise.” Gleanings, p, 284
Thus it does not MATTER what the deity could do, that is completely moot.
Logically speaking, an Omnipotent Deity does not do ANYTHING that He does not choose to do.
Try to think about what that is the case.