Baha'i and Messengers

[loverofhumanity]

But you can give that person a piece of your chocolate so they can also experience it.
You haven't quite got the hang of this analogy lark, have you?

I don't like perfume. It all smells awful to me.

What are the "spiritual senses", and how do you know we have them?
How do you know your "spiritual experience" is not just an internally produced delusion?
Remember that we know that the brain can produce false hallucinations and delusions that seem absolutely real to the subject.

The spiritual senses can only be acquired through prayer, meditation, reflection and reading the Word of God. These powers can recognise God and His Prophets.

If one reflects one earthly things he will become informed of them and if he reflects on the Word of God he will come to know God.

 

[loverofhumanity]

When you say, "God" and a born-again Christian says, "God", they aren't thinking of the same thing. Yet, both are sure that the "God" they believe in is real.

Some concepts of "God" are, hopefully, no longer believed. Like worshipping him and offering him sacrifices. And today, that Christian concept of a three-part "God" is something Islam and the Baha'i Faith don't believe is true.

The God of the Bible is the God we both believe in.

 

[loverofhumanity]

That's the problem... What have the recent manifestations, Jesus, Muhammad, The Bab and Baha'u'llah, told us about Hinduism?

There are some things mentioned by Baha’u’llah, Abdul-Baha and Shoghi Effendi. The main things have been clarified for us.

https://www.bahai.org/library/autho...abernacle-unity/tabernacle-unity.pdf?3f95694e

 

[loverofhumanity]

Let's talk about food.

Bahá'u'lláh described agriculture as "a vital and important matter" that was foremost among the principles "conducive to the advancement of mankind and to the reconstruction of the world” (Tablets of Bahá'u'lláh Revealed After the Kitáb-i-Aqdas 90, 89). Yet current agricultural policy often prioritizes yield and profit over health, sustainability, and sociocultural features of rural communities, while the poor struggle to even feed themselves, and climate change makes farming increasingly unpredictable. These and other factors threaten food security.

Agriculture: the Secret Ingredient to Global Peace and Prosperity
To solve this problem (of economics), we must begin with the farmer; there will we lay a foundation for system and order because the peasant class and the agricultural class exceed other classes in the importance of their service.

Abdu’l-Baha knew that, without food production, nothing else would be possible in society. That reality likely sparked his intense concern for agriculture and how it worked, what would make it more successful, and its deeper implications for society.​

Hard work, long hours and why would the next generation want to stay on the farm when they can go to the city? What are the Baha'i solutions?

One possible solution to remedy the problem of farmers migrating to cities is to make farming income financially sustainable and profitable.

Food and Farming

Financial Security

An underlying problem with the agricultural economy is the continual change in the fortunes of farmers, depending on market forces, weather and other factors. To help cope with this situation, the Bahá'í Writings specify a village fund, known as the storehouse. This is a model based on a village farming community but the principles can also be extended to towns and cities:

"To solve this problem we must begin with the farmer..... In every village there must be established a general storehouse which will have a number of revenues...."

Most of the revenues are based on the use of the land. One is a graduated tax on farmers who are in profit, another is a percentage of profits from mining or extraction work. Those who do not work on the land will likewise pay a percentage of their surplus income. Local trustees will pay out from this storehouse to those in need, including farmers during the lean years.

In essence, this financial storehouse is very different from the present arrangements. It is a permanent and local system which emphasises the fundamental importance of a successful agricultural economy.

This system will also operate on a regional and national level. Any surplus from the local storehouse would be sent to a central fund, for use in less fortunate areas. Likewise the local area would receive help from this central fund if this became necessary.

 

[Truthseeker]

It’s not a literal number, but an expression denoting that there have been many Messengers and Books, and Teachers from the past, and will continue to be in the future.

That's true from one standpoint, as this earth has a beginning and end, but as creation has no beginning or end, I believe there have been an infinite Messengers of God and will be in the future, just not on this planet Earth.

 

[Aupmanyav]

God manifested in the flesh, not God incarnated in the flesh.

Now, you are taking recourse to semantics. Manifest in simple English is "to appear, to become plainly visible". Why are you trying to be extra smart? Who translated the word that Bahaollah used? Shoghi?
Definition of manifest | Dictionary.com

 

[Aupmanyav]

Well, not really. God gave Adam the choice. Adam made his own choice. God can’t be blamed for that.

Adam was created by God. If he (first manifestation of God for Bahais) made a mistake, the finger points straight to God.

 

[Aupmanyav]

@Aupmanyav This is how.
Jesus said choose wisely, as many come in the name of God that are false, but the True will will know. If we are looking.

That is your view. As you perhaps know 'Advaita' Hinduism does not recognize any difference. We believe all things in the universe are constituted by one entity (you can say substance, though it is not technically correct).
What Jesus said applies to him too and to all others who have claimed a mission from God/Allah. What proof Moses, Jesus, Mohammad, Joseph Smith, Bahaollah, Mirza Ghulam Ahmad had to show? Absolutely nothing. Just talk, talk and talk.

 

[Sundance]

Adam was created by God. If he (first manifestation of God for Bahais) made a mistake, the finger points straight to God.

That would be true, unless the story regarding Him says otherwise. I’ll let you decide to make the next move, Aup.

 

[Sundance]

This is a refreshing point of view I don't hear from other Baha'is much. I agree with this point if view. I'm not saying that other many other Baha'is don't think this.

Thanks a ton, friendo! I try to express the Teachings using analogy, simile, metaphor, and poetry.

 

[Trailblazer]

Thanks a ton, friendo! I try to express the Teachings using analogy, simile, metaphor, and poetry.

Ditto on what @Truthseeker said to you...
He is my bff and keeps me on the straight and narrow as he is a much better Baha'i than I am, although we have both been Baha'is for about the same number of years and are about the same age and have been married to the same spouse for the same number of years.... go figure!
Duane and I met on the Planet Baha'i forum about nine years ago.

 

[Trailblazer]

Now, you are taking recourse to semantics. Manifest in simple English is "to appear, to become plainly visible". Why are you trying to be extra smart? Who translated the word that Bahaollah used? Shoghi?
Definition of manifest | Dictionary.com

Yes, it means what the definition says. The attributes of God appeared and became plainly visible in Baha'u'llah and the other Manifestations of God, but God did not become flesh as that would be an incarnation, not a Manifestation.

Shoghi Effendi translated most of the Writings so he probably translated that.

 

[Sheldon]

If God became flesh then God would not be God, God would be a man.
God by definition is not a man so God cannot become a man.
This is logic 101 stuff.

It certainly is not logical, it is an unfalsifiable and evidenced assumption, that is not how logic works. What's worse you already asserted this deity is omnipotent, and thus this claim actually violates the the law of non contradiction, thus it is by definition irrational.

I know you don't like this, but yet you repeatedly use know logical fallacies like this, and often fail to understand it even after it is explained. If a deity is claimed to have literally unlimited power, which is what omnipotence means, then it is obviously a contradiction to claim there are things it cannot do. Thus omnipotence itself is a concept that has innate contradictions.

 

[loverofhumanity]

It certainly is not logical, it is an unfalsifiable and evidenced assumption, that is not how logic works. What's worse you already asserted this deity is omnipotent, and thus this claim actually violates the the law of non contradiction, thus it is by definition irrational.

I know you don't like this, but yet you repeatedly use know logical fallacies like this, and often fail to understand it even after it is explained. If a deity is claimed to have literally unlimited power, which is what omnipotence means, then it is obviously a contradiction to claim there are things it cannot do. Thus omnipotence itself is a concept that has innate contradictions.

God could have chosen to give everyone the capacity to receive direct revelation from Him, but instead He singled out One Person from age to age and conferred upon Him the ability to directly communicate with Him. So we have Christ, Moses, Muhammad and Baha’u’llah etc. So He can manifest Himself through a Man but in His Wisdom He chose not to grant this capacity to all men.

These Suns of Truth are perfect Mirrors reflecting God. So when we see the sun reflected in these Mirrors we say the sun is seen in the mirror but the actual sun has not descended into the mirror. So sometimes one might hear Christ or Baha’u’llah say ‘I am God’ and because they are a perfect reflection of God they are correct in saying that because one can see in Them the qualities and perfections of God. But just as the sun is reflected and has not physically descended into the mirror, These Suns of Truth perfectly reflect God but God’s Essence does not descend into them, only it is reflected.

This does not mean God is not omnipotent because He did not give all men the capability of direct communication with Him. Rather it is His Wisdom that has decreed it that way.

 

[Brian2]

You may think you have free will, but if god predetermines any event, then you have no free will in that respect. Any "choice" you make is inevitable.

God knowing what will happen in the future is not the same as God predetermining those events.

 

[Brian2]

Baha'is believe Jesus was virgin born. What would it have hurt for them to say that Jesus also rose from the dead? I guess they had to draw the line somewhere and making Jesus dead and gone was the best way to do it.

Well for a Baha'i a body cannot live in heaven, even an immortal and incorruptible body it seems.
And yes if Jesus just died and went to heaven as a spirit that gets rid of Him and His return as the same Jesus the disciples saw ascend in Acts 1.
But yes there are a lot of loose ends and certainly a lot of straight out denial of the plain things written in the Bible.
As for the virgin birth, that does explain why Jesus is call the only begotten Son of God............less to deny. Easier to accept the virgin birth and deny the eternal Sonship of Jesus and the Trinity, which so many people just mock anyway.

 

[Brian2]

So one can only see the evidence for god if one believes god exists.
Makes sense.

I think the way it works is that only those who do not believe in God are the ones who pretend there is no evidence for God.

 

[Brian2]

Can you please clarify?

loverofhumanity said: >>>All the Messengers of God teach the same eternal truths. Only Their social laws differ as they were revealed to suit the needs of the people in each age.

Christ = love thy neighbour

Muhammad = love thy country

Baha’u’llah = love all humanity

See how wonderfully they reveal laws according to the development, evolution and progress of humanity. The law of love has never changed only widened to embrace all.<<<

There was no widening of the teachings of Baha'u'llah compared to Jesus so the teaching is not better in any way.
Maybe it is worse. It is easy to love humanity in a vague airy fairy way, but harder to love each person individually.

 

[Audie]

There's your guess that threre is a spirit,
that " humbling " yourSELF will have
some benefit to - yourself. - Audie

Do you believe ( guess) that humbling yourself
to some spirit will benefit you?
My point, dodged so far, is that
such a belief and associated behaviour
is self indulgent.

 

[Audie]

Neither we nor the universe created itself.

There is zero evidence that the universe was created.