Baha'i and Messengers

[ACEofALLaces]

I already explained that there can be no objective evidence for God or that Baha'u'llah was a Messenger of God, so I do not EXPECT to have that kind of evidence. However, that does not mean I am not an objective thinker....

It doesn't huh? I cannot quite wrap my head around some who does NOT have any objective evidence as the basis for what they believe.....who then declares themselves as being an "objective thinker".

As for why the "evidence" for Baha'u'llah is not liked by many others I think I already told you on the BUE forum that I have a LIST of reasons, and you did not want to see my list of reasons, as I recall.

The REASON I did not want you to post them there, is to PREVENT those hammer-wielding, power-hungry moderators from coming down on YOU as they most likely WOULD have.
So feel free to present them to me here....if you are still so inclined.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

Yep. How many times have we heard the same story. "Hi, my religion is the best. It's not like all the others. Ours has a wonderful, kinder, more gentler God. Our prophet was so wise and great. He spoke directly to God and wrote all these wonderful things." We can have several different versions of that same story and all of them will be from some type of Christianity. Knock knock. "Hi, I'm a JW." Knock, knock, "Hi, I'm with the Mormon Church." Or out on the street. "Hi, did you know Jesus loves you? I'm with Calvary Chapel." Or some other "evangelizing" Christian Church.

What makes any of them true? The things that it says in the Bible. And now add to that the Baha'i Faith. "How do you know it's true?" "Because of this, this and this." "None of that is objective evidence." "To me it is. Sorry you can't see the truth." Which is what it comes down to... All people need to "see" the truth the way the see it... from their perspective. Which seems kind of subjective.

Yep! If this was a bingo game, you would be MORE than qualified to stand up and proudly shout out BINGO!~ Thanks for your excellent response.

 

[Sundance]

With some of the things said by some Baha'is, it doesn't come across like this. It sound more like "We know the truth, because our prophet got the truth from God and wrote it down, so there can be no mistakes. The other religions, except maybe Islam, who knows what the original teachings were? All we have is what people wrote about the prophet and his teachings. Therefore, if it contradicts what Baha'u'llah has said, it is Baha'u'llah that has it right, and those other religion have it wrong.

And some Baha'is sound as if nothing could ever change their minds. They did their investigation and have come to believe the Baha'i Faith is the truth.

So, learning some new things about Baha'i beliefs that might turn up later from some yet to be translated book would affect their belief? Or, learning something new about another religion that didn't fit in with what the Baha'i Faith said about that other religion... that wouldn't get them to reconsider their belief in the truth of the Baha'i Faith?

I think this kind of thing does happen to some people. They weren't "deepened" in the Faith, then learned something that they can't accept. Like maybe Baha'i teachings about no alcohol, no premarital, or extramarital, or homosexual sex. Or they get "witnessed" to by a Christians that convinces them that what the Baha'i Faith said about Christianity isn't true. Like that Jesus didn't rise physically from the dead, or that Jesus is the only way to be saved.

So, when has anyone done enough investigating of the truth to know anything for sure? But that is what most religions expect people to do... to accept fully and completely and never to question or doubt again. That's how lots of Christians come across, but so do Baha'is. It's a done deal. Whatever Baha'u'llah has said, and whatever the Baha'i Faith teaches, that is the truth. If they say God is real and Baha'u'llah was sent by God, then, no matter what anyone says or thinks, is wrong. And they, somehow and someway, are mistaken. And they must be shown what is the truth.

And that's what Baha'is sound like. As sure and absolutely positive as a JW or any Fundamental Christian. And coming from that position is not coming with love and humiliating... or coming as a friend who cares about you and respects your beliefs. It feels as though the Baha'i' is coming to convince and convert. And it doesn't help to know that the Baha'i Faith expects their people to go out and "teach" the word. So, most of us are already suspicious if a Baha'i comes on too friendly and is too interested in us. Because we know what's coming. "Oh, by the way, have you ever heard of Baha'u'llah?" "Why no, who was he"? "So glad you asked. Let me tell you all about him."

I suppose that I’m a bit of an outlier as a Bahá’í, then. At least, nowadays. I’ve become much more mellow in my temperament and I’ve been focused on trying to learn about all different kinds of perspectives on spiritual matters.

Maybe not the validity of the Faith Itself, but of how they individually understand it.

As for “learning about things that they can’t accept”, I say to this. Wherever your heart and mind lead you go, that is where you go. We don’t force people to become Bahá’ís, or stay Bahá’ís. We don’t punish people for thinking for themselves or choosing to leave the Faith. It’s true that we have different understandings of things, like God, Religion, specific spiritual teachings, but we try not to superimpose that onto whichever Sacred Text or Religion we’re dealing with. Though, I think that it’s at least worth trying to understand what it is that Bahá’ís actually teach on *insert topic here* rather than simply relying on misconceptions and preconceived notions.

“Never to question or doubt again”? That doesn’t sound like the Faith I know. The whole “independent investigation of truth” thing, yeah, it’s not just a marketing tool. We apply that. At least, I try to.

That spirit of love and humility, it’s true, some of us could use a whole lot more of it.

 

[Trailblazer]

If there are objective facts in your religion, why are your beliefs about it subjective?

Because what the objective facts are interpreted to mean (their significance) is subjective.
Some people will think they mean that Baha'u'llah must have been a Messenger of God and other people will think they are not significant at all, that any man could have done what He did and write what He wrote.

Can you demonstrate an objective fact contained in your religion, and your subjective belief about what it means please?

What happened to Baha'u'llah in His early life and during His mission are facts and you can read about them here:
The Life of Bahá’u’lláh

(I am not referring to His claims to be a Messenger of God, that is not factual.)

What all those facts about Baha'u'llah's life mean to me are that He was a Messenger of God. That is not the only reason I believe He was a Messenger of God, but that is part of it.

 

[CG Didymus]

@Policy

It is important to point out that the knowledge of the twofold station of a Messenger is required.

A Messenger is both the 'Self of God', all we can know and see of God and a man like us.

"...Like the Manifestations of God gone before Him, He is both the Voice of God and its human channel: “When I contemplate, O my God, the relationship that bindeth me to Thee, I am moved to proclaim to all created things ‘verily I am God!’; and when I consider my own self, lo, I find it coarser than clay!”

From this link.
Bahá'í Reference Library - Bahá’u’lláh, Pages 25-26

So Jesus the man, is also the Christ (Annointed One) "The Self of God amongst us"

We have been told we can see them as a Messenger or as God, it does not matter as long as it does not become a point of contention.

Regards Tony

With Jesus and Krishna, they are presented as being more like incarnations. With people like Adam, Noah, Abraham, more like ordinary men that were fallible but followed God. With Moses and Muhammad, more like prophets of God but not the "Self of God". They still seemed like fallible men. Then Buddha? He got enlightened in a way that had nothing to do with the Abrahamic kind of God. To make all of them "manifestations", Baha'is have to ignore the Scripture stories about their lives or make those stories metaphorical.

 

[CG Didymus]

I suppose that I’m a bit of an outlier as a Bahá’í,

That's a good place to be as far as I'm concerned. Because...

“Never to question or doubt again”

Unfortunately, some Baha'is come across like this. And it makes it seem like they are only trying to win the argument.

To me, that's not listening, that's not caring. And, though, I'm sure it's not easy, I think Baha'is need to learn how to become more caring, more loving, more all those good things.

Baha'is know going in, it's a tough crowd. But if the Baha'i puts up their defenses, and fights back, it's kind of counterproductive. Like how many posts go back and forth... "God is real." "No, he's not." "Yes, he is." "Prove it" "I already did a hundred times, but you don't believe it." I'll bet 90% of them are like that. They just keep going round in circles.

 

[Trailblazer]

Honestly, what good is ANY evidence if it is not OBjective evidence which can withstand serious scrutiny?

Objective evidence refers to information based on facts that can be proved by means of search like analysis, measurement, and observation. One can examine and evaluate objective evidence.
What does objective evidence mean?

There is information based upon facts about Baha'u'llah that can be be scrutinized, but they cannot be measured and observed so in that sense they are not objective evidence.

Don't care.....I gave up on those guys....WAAAYYYY too much "moderation" for my taste. Freedom of speech is definitely disallowed there.

Good to know that. That place is losing members faster than Christianity.
I have tried to keep it afloat but so far is just me and Dotsman and N_J who are keeping it afloat.

Ahhh yes, so we're back to the idea that it was you exercising you FREE WILL, as being your CHOICE to believe.....empirical evidence be damned, right?

Empirical evidence for God is not possible since God can never be observed.

 

[CG Didymus]

In my relatively short time here, I have noticed a decided lack of motivation to discuss what a Bahai believes, beyond the claims themselves.
I take it, this is typical of Bahai strategy, in that disallowing debate, is a safe way to defend ones beliefs, in the absence of any, shall I say, more EMPIRICAL kind of "evidence"?

They've got a plan on how to unite the world in peace and harmony. But who wants to talk about that?

 

[Trailblazer]

It doesn't huh? I cannot quite wrap my head around some who does NOT have any objective evidence as the basis for what they believe.....who then declares themselves as being an "objective thinker".

Regarding objective evidence, please see my previous post.

The REASON I did not want you to post them there, is to PREVENT those hammer-wielding, power-hungry moderators from coming down on YOU as they most likely WOULD have.
So feel free to present them to me here....if you are still so inclined.

I appreciate that but so far the mods have not lowered the boom...

Here is the link to that post: Evidence for Baha’u’llah

 

[CG Didymus]

There it finally comes out.......Tony played the "FAITH" card, where in his apparent opinion, overrides and conquers all objections. It has ALWAYS been that way in my experience, that whenever a believer feels they are being backed into a corner, they WITHOUT FAIL, resort to playing the "FAITH" card.

And "faith" can be used in every religion. I really believe that if a person has "faith" in the teachings of their religion, it will work for them, and they will see "proofs" of how and why it is true. And how can you argue with that... They "know" it is true.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

They've got a plan on how to unite the world in peace and harmony. But who wants to talk about that?

So THEY've (meaning the Bahais) have a plan do they? What in your estimation, would be the MEANS by which this plan could be executed?

Just to digress a bit here, I have always found it rather amusing that Christians claim THEIR God has a "plan" as well.........something I could never quite understand, since the Christians THEMSELVES declare that their God is omniscient....is ALL KNOWING.

Which begs the question as to WHY would a God that already KNOWS how everything will turn out, would have a "need" for something as mundane as a "PLAN"?......was it just in case this God momentarily forgot what it was going to do next?

 

[ACEofALLaces]

And "faith" can be used in every religion. I really believe that if a person has "faith" in the teachings of their religion, it will work for them, and they will see "proofs" of how and why it is true. And how can you argue with that... They "know" it is true.

I myself would define that as encouraging one to become delusional. No, I see FAITH as being likened to the "get out of jail free" card in Monopoly......it only provides an "escape route" for a beleaguered believer to run and hide behind.

Their beliefs are subjective, their evidence is subjective.....but, but, but, they have FAITH.....unh oh ok <grin>

 

[Trailblazer]

Which begs the question as to WHY would a God that already KNOWS how everything will turn out, would have a "need" for something as mundane as a "PLAN"?......was it just in case this God momentarily forgot what it was going to do next?

God does not have a Plan because God already knows, the Baha'is have a Plan.

CG Didymus said: They've got a plan on how to unite the world in peace and harmony. But who wants to talk about that?

They are the Baha'is.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

Regarding objective evidence, please see my previous post.
I did and will respond accordingly

I appreciate that but so far the mods have not lowered the boom...
You know how they operate....string you along, get your confidence up, and THEN gang up on you es masse. When they ganged up on me and my "memes", that's when I left.

Here is the link to that post: Evidence for Baha’u’llah

'tanks.....I'll go take a look.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

God does not have a Plan because God already knows, the Baha'is have a Plan.
That's not what THEY say! Just ASK one. It's even in their precious BOOK.

CG Didymus said: They've got a plan on how to unite the world in peace and harmony. But who wants to talk about that?

They are the Baha'is.

Oh, sure, of course......NOW we know......because they're Bahais...got it.

 

[CG Didymus]

So THEY've (meaning the Bahais) have a plan do they? What in your estimation, would be the MEANS by which this plan could be executed?

I think you've out "bingo'd" me several times. Right when I was so close. But the plan...

Baha’u’llah envisioned a time in the future when the peoples of the world will live together in peace and unity as members of one faith. Universal justice will be established based on adherence to the law of God. A new civilization based on spiritual values will come into being. He referred to this as the Most Great Peace.

In his own time he called upon the rulers of the world to support his Cause and implied that had they done so, the Most Great Peace could have been established relatively quickly due to their leadership and influence. When they rejected him, Baha’u’llah exhorted them to establish the “Lesser Peace”—a political unity of the nations that would be a prelude to the Most Great Peace.
​

So, we could have had a peaceful world already, but Baha'u'llah was rejected. The current plan is to get all the nations to unite, essential disarm, except for a few weapons to keep the peace within their country. Elect representatives to serve on a World-Tribunal, whose decisions all the nations are supposed to obey. If a nation goes rogue, all the others are to band together and stop them. And a whole bunch of other stuff. Sounds good to me. And I'm totally sure everybody will get on board. Actually, Baha'is believe the world will get on board. But only after we go through such horrible times that we will have no choice but to unite and accept the Baha'i Faith.

I have always found it rather amusing that Christians claim THEIR God has a "plan" as well.........something I could never quite understand, since the Christians THEMSELVES declare that their God is omniscient....is ALL KNOWING.

I love "God's" plan. Get Adam to fall into temptation and sin... curse him and have everybody, from that moment on, to be born with a sin nature and be separated from God. After a couple of thousands of years, though, the best part of the plan, send his Son to save us. But then a couple thousand years more, and still counting, his Son will come back cast Satan, whom God created, into an abyss for a thousand years. Of course, all the evil, non-believers get tossed into a lake of fire. Oh, I forgot that God was sorry he created man, so he killed all of them accept Noah and his family and a few animals. Then gave the Israelites a bunch of laws that he knew they couldn't keep and then sent his Son to them. Knowing they would have him killed. But, you can't keep a good man down, God raised him from the dead. Now that's a plan.

Which begs the question as to WHY would a God that already KNOWS how everything will turn out, would have a "need" for something as mundane as a "PLAN"?......was it just in case this God momentarily forgot what it was going to do next?

Oh? That's right. So, his plan was just to mess with us? I think you get the "Bingo" this time.

 

[ACEofALLaces]

I think you've out "bingo'd" me several times. Right when I was so close. But the plan...

Baha’u’llah envisioned a time in the future when the peoples of the world will live together in peace and unity as members of one faith. Universal justice will be established based on adherence to the law of God. A new civilization based on spiritual values will come into being. He referred to this as the Most Great Peace.
So, we could have had a peaceful world already, but Baha'u'llah was rejected. .​

Well, honestly what did you expect, especially when Baha'u'llah was presented SOOoooooo poorly and so poorly REPRESENTED and so poorly defended.
The absolute best that ANYONE can really come up with is that Baha'u'llah was a nobleman, a nice guy with ambitious ideas. There is NO doubting his veracity as a person; it is his audacious claim of having been contacted by GOD, that got him in trouble then and is STILL getting him in trouble.

The current plan is to get all the nations to unite, essential disarm, except for a few weapons to keep the peace within their country. Elect representatives to serve on a World-Tribunal, whose decisions all the nations are supposed to obey. If a nation goes rogue, all the others are to band together and stop them. And a whole bunch of other stuff. Sounds good to me. And I'm totally sure everybody will get on board.

And an honorable "plan" it is, even as unrealistic it is in thinking it could ever come to fruition in THIS convoluted age of geo-political unrest. Wishful thinking at best. ALMOST has the distinctive smell of that so-called "ONE WORLD ORDER" that someone had suggested was "just around the corner" some time back.

. Actually, Baha'is believe the world will get on board. But only after we go through such horrible times that we will have no choice but to unite and accept the Baha'i Faith.

We will ALWAYS have a choice, and presently I see no way of something THAT dreamlike would ever come to pass, in our lifetime OR in any lifetime to come.
The Sun will have to have gone nova and begun to supernova and unless we are OFF of this 3rd rock from the sun, we as a bickering, and warlike species, are doomed to extinction ALONG with our planet.​

I love "God's" plan. Get Adam to fall into temptation and sin... curse him and have everybody, from that moment on, to be born with a sin nature and be separated from God. After a couple of thousands of years, though, the best part of the plan, send his Son to save us. Knowing they would have him killed. But, you can't keep a good man down, God raised him from the dead. Now that's a plan..

You really DO catch on quick doncha? Brownie points for YOU...as WELL as bingo!

Oh? That's right. So, his plan was just to mess with us? I think you get the "Bingo" this time.

Yep! Just think of a kid outside messing with the local Red ant colony,...randomly tossing in some Black ants from an adjacent colony, just to see what would happen........THAT is God and how I view His relationship with humanity.
And then when his ants give Him too much grief, He goes and gets the garden hose out and drowns the entire lot of them.......all done in loooove, of course

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Yes INDEED, argument solely for the sake of argument IS pointless. However when the topic of a discussion (argument) appears to becoming too challenging for the believer to defend, it seems in their mind, the ONLY recourse, OTHER than accepting defeat, is to simply withdraw and feign a "lack of interest" in continuing.
At least, that is what I am seeing........

The challenge I see is if one is willing to consider if there is an intelligent spirit behind existence, they may need more than material senses to understand and see.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

With Jesus and Krishna, they are presented as being more like incarnations. With people like Adam, Noah, Abraham, more like ordinary men that were fallible but followed God. With Moses and Muhammad, more like prophets of God but not the "Self of God". They still seemed like fallible men. Then Buddha? He got enlightened in a way that had nothing to do with the Abrahamic kind of God. To make all of them "manifestations", Baha'is have to ignore the Scripture stories about their lives or make those stories metaphorical.

Baha'u'llah explains all this in the Kitab-i-iqan CG.

How the intensity of some Messengers does not appear as bright as another.

Regards Tony

 

[ACEofALLaces]

The challenge I see is if one is willing to consider if there is an intelligent spirit behind existence, they may need more than material senses to understand and see.

Regards Tony

I am of the mind that what we call existence and the universe, was not totally the result of random "events".....however, I limit myself in not going so far as to entertaining the idea that some kind of "cosmic entity" had a hand in it either.
Honestly, it IS tough to come up with easy to access answers for some things which simply are NOT easy questions. I resist the urge to "fill in the blanks" with some sort of supernatural answer, as doing so would place me in the same category of how those early goat-herders came up with their infamous GODDIDIT list.
It may very well END UP being discovered that God really DID do it.....I do NOT discount that possibility...but right now, all I got is simply I DUNNO.