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Bahai factions...

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
Hi!

Unfortunately, Making the Crooked Straight is fairly hard to find, but you may well luck out and find it in a Baha'i Center! (I'm lucky: I own a copy!)

Fortunately, too, it's currently being prepared to be released online, but I'm afraid the editing to get it ready for this is a slow process. (I'm one of the editors involved in this multistage process, and it's taken me four months just go get through 200 pages of the text. There's a LOT of preparation <stuff like general formatting, proofreading, and inserting & checking accents, underscores, underdots, etc.> to be done! Keeps me off the streets.) :)

It's around 840 pages long and therefore definitely not trivial, but it does have an index; and by looking under somthing like "'Abdu'l-Baha / Will and Testament," you should find the relevant sections.

Regards, :)

Bruce
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
For the record, Amazon's new price for this is truly insane!!

It is (or was) available from the Baha'i Distribution Service (1-800-999-9019) for $60.

The price for the used ones is very reasonable, though.

Peace, :)

Bruce
 

Wombat

Active Member
{snip}
But this is what gets to me and makes me wonder about the Bahai Faith... to me, all of these groups are the "Bahai Faith" and they are as valid as the Bahai Faith based in Haifa. I strongly disagree with the whole 'disassociating' with Covenant-Breakers and I have read some of Ghusn-i-Akbar's writings.
{snip}
This 'trademarking' is something I dislike,....
{snip}
I remember online and some Bahais who believe in the Universal House of Justice are so nasty to the Orthodox Bahais calling them 'Covenant-Breakers' and saying 'Covenant-Breaker alert.' I just thought that such an attitude seemed so... primitive and anti-humanitarian.
{snip}

Hi Madanbhakti
I’m Wombat (or Rod), take your pick ;-)
Great thread and good points. I’m an ‘Unenrolled’ Baha’i (three decades within the Baha’i community). Many Baha’is assert there is no such thing as Unenrolled Baha’is...I’m going to assert (with a moderate degree of confidence) that I do in fact exist...and so do others. Other Baha’is have also stated that I have no “authority” to claim the status of ‘Baha’i...if the authority of my conscience/free will to choose my beliefs is insufficient...then I will rely on Abdul Baha-

"To be a Baha’i simply means to love all the world; to love humanity and try to serve it; to work for universal peace and universal brotherhood." -- Abdu'l-Baha


"You can be a Baha'i-Christian, a Baha'i-Freemason, a Baha'i-Jew, a Baha'i-Muhammadan" ('Abdu'l-Baha in London, p.97)



Within Christianity (other faiths) ‘denominations are commonly recognised and accepted...It would no doubt surprise/shock us to hear of the any church attempting to “trademark” Christianity. None the less in culture/cosmology and through the law the Baha’is (Haifa) have attempted to do so.

What you observed regarding “strongly disagree with the whole 'disassociating' with Covenant-Breakers” also goes further and deeper. “Shunning” (Takfir) does occur and can apply to other Baha’is, ex Baha’is, liberal Baha’is and unenrolled Baha’is. Some ex Baha’is (though not Covenant Breakers) have even been deemed “Spiritually Corrosive”.

And I can only agree wholeheartedly with your expressed opinion on such a “primitive and anti-humanitarian” stance.

I have enjoyed your thread and the discussion it has provoked and wish you well.

Rod.
 

arthra

Baha'i
{snip}
But this is what gets to me and makes me wonder about the Bahai Faith... to me, all of these groups are the "Bahai Faith" and they are as valid as the Bahai Faith based in Haifa. I strongly disagree with the whole 'disassociating' with Covenant-Breakers and I have read some of Ghusn-i-Akbar's writings.
{snip}
This 'trademarking' is something I dislike,....
{snip}
I remember online and some Bahais who believe in the Universal House of Justice are so nasty to the Orthodox Bahais calling them 'Covenant-Breakers' and saying 'Covenant-Breaker alert.' I just thought that such an attitude seemed so... primitive and anti-humanitarian.
{snip}

Hi Madanbhakti
I’m Wombat (or Rod), take your pick ;-)
Great thread and good points. I’m an ‘Unenrolled’ Baha’i (three decades within the Baha’i community). Many Baha’is assert there is no such thing as Unenrolled Baha’is...I’m going to assert (with a moderate degree of confidence) that I do in fact exist...and so do others. Other Baha’is have also stated that I have no “authority” to claim the status of ‘Baha’i...if the authority of my conscience/free will to choose my beliefs is insufficient...then I will rely on Abdul Baha-

"To be a Baha’i simply means to love all the world; to love humanity and try to serve it; to work for universal peace and universal brotherhood." -- Abdu'l-Baha


"You can be a Baha'i-Christian, a Baha'i-Freemason, a Baha'i-Jew, a Baha'i-Muhammadan" ('Abdu'l-Baha in London, p.97)



Within Christianity (other faiths) ‘denominations are commonly recognised and accepted...It would no doubt surprise/shock us to hear of the any church attempting to “trademark” Christianity. None the less in culture/cosmology and through the law the Baha’is (Haifa) have attempted to do so.

What you observed regarding “strongly disagree with the whole 'disassociating' with Covenant-Breakers” also goes further and deeper. “Shunning” (Takfir) does occur and can apply to other Baha’is, ex Baha’is, liberal Baha’is and unenrolled Baha’is. Some ex Baha’is (though not Covenant Breakers) have even been deemed “Spiritually Corrosive”.

And I can only agree wholeheartedly with your expressed opinion on such a “primitive and anti-humanitarian” stance.

I have enjoyed your thread and the discussion it has provoked and wish you well.

Rod.

Thanks for your post..Wombat!

Please understand that this is not a debate thread or forum. There is a place for debate in the proper section here at Religious Forums. Here we provide information primarily about the Faith.

That citation you gave from "Abdul-Baha in London" was from notes of a speech given around 1911.. this was when the Faith was not organized as such so it was more diffuse..

Abdul-Baha in His Will and Testament outlined how the future Baha'i community would be organized and here He left it to His grandson Shoghi Effendi to set up... Dual membership in the Faith and say in churches was discouraged as our administrative order took shape and today Baha'is do not carry dual memberships in churches and such.

The term Covenant Breaker goes back to the early history of our Faith at the time of its formation and applies to those who attempt to destroy it's unity or substitute the Institutions that have been recognized in the Kitab-i-Aqdas, the Kitab-i-Adh and the Will and Testament of Abdul-Baha with their own institutions or authority.. None of these attempts over the years have been successful..

It's true as you wrote above that Christianity and Islam have many denominations and sects.. In Christianity alone there have been estimates of as high as thirty thousand denominations and new ones start all the time..

The Baha'i Faith is organized around what is called a Covenant.. and covenants are what keep the unity of our Faith. had Jesus left a Will in His own hand writing or approved by Him you would have seen a differently development in the Christian religion... We are speculating here of course..

and had Prophet Muhammad left a Will and Testament you can be assured that early Islam would have been a different history ... no fracture say between Shiah and Sunni...

So in the case of our Faith which is based on the Will of Baha'u'llah and later Abdul-Baha the Lesser Covenant is like the bed rock foundation of our Faith and designated say Abdul-Baha or Shoghi Effendi to be the Interpreters of the Writings. Those who opposed the Covenant were termed Covenant Breakers and so the term originated. The unity and order of the Faith has been preserved and protected..

In reality very few people have been designated as covenant breakers especially in recent times.. All of their attempts failed..
 

Wombat

Active Member
[/quote]
Thanks for your post..Wombat!

Please understand that this is not a debate thread or forum.
[/quote]

Ok, thanks. Does that prohibit asking questions re what is posted here?

[/quote]

That citation you gave from "Abdul-Baha in London" was from notes of a speech given around 1911.. this was when the Faith was not organized as such so it was more diffuse..
[Snip]

...Dual membership in the Faith and say in churches was discouraged as our administrative order took shape and today Baha'is do not carry dual memberships in churches and such.

[/quote]

Does that mean the "administrative order" is entitled, empowered, , authorised to abrogate and override what Abdul Baha has stated?

ie The AO trumps Abdul Baha?
 

arthra

Baha'i
Wombat,

Questions are permitted as I understand it..Should you wish to debate however there is a forum for that purpose here...

In answer to your question..

Does that mean the "administrative order" is entitled, empowered, , authorised to abrogate and override what Abdul Baha has stated?

Once again, the comment was made before the administrative order had taken shape ..

At that time Abdul-Baha Himself attended services at the Mosque in Haifa.. Even though He was clearly not a Muslim. Baha'is with Christian backgrounds continued in their churches.

Abdul-Baha envisioned a time though when the Faith would be organized along different lines..in His Will and Testament
such as:

"The sacred and youthful branch, the Guardian of the Cause of God, as well as the Universal House of Justice to be universally elected and established, are both under the care and protection of the Abhá Beauty, under the shelter and unerring guidance of the Exalted One (may my life be offered up for them both)" (part 1, paragraph 18)

He does not say then that the way things were done in 1911 or 1912 is the only way for Baha'i communities in the future...

Some of the Tablets of Abdul-Baha that come to mind addressed the very issue of church membership:

Thou hast questioned how thou canst accept this divine cause, for thou art a member of the Church: (Know thou) in the day of the Manifestation of Christ, many souls became portionless and deprived (from the favor of God) because thy were members of the Holy of Holies in Jerusalem. According to that membership, they became veiled from that brilliant Beauty. Therefore, turn thou thy face to the Church of God which consists in divine instructions and merciful exhortations. For what similarity (is there) between the church of stone and cement and the Celestial Holy of Holies!

(Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v2, p. 327)

Thou hast written that they have expelled thee from the church and thy friends are manifesting aversion toward thee. This is the beginning of thy trials. There are greater trials than these. Therefore, be thou not sad, nay rather, be thou happy and full of glad-tidings. There is no harm done if they have expelled thee from the church. Thou hast stepped into the Kingdom of God. Thou hast entered into the Heavenly Jerusalem and discovered the Way to the Holy of Holies of the Kingdom. That church is of stone and cement, whereas this Holy of Holies is of overwhelming Light.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of Abdu'l-Baha v3, p. 504)

Summon the people in these countries, capitals, islands, assemblies and churches to enter the Abha Kingdom. The scope of your exertions must needs be extended. The wider its range, the more striking will be the evidence of divine assistance.

(Abdu'l-Baha, Tablets of the Divine Plan, p. 43)

With the passing of Abdul-Baha the lines of the administrative order became even clearer and Shoghi Effendi expressed these advisories:

As regards the question you asked him: he feels that the Bahá'ís in Germany should, by all means, follow the same procedure as regards withdrawing from church membership as that in America. You should point out to the believers that, by belonging to other organized religious bodies, we are not acting openly because we firmly believe Christ has come again - so how can we belong to a church which does not accept Bahá'u'lláh and His message as the fulfilment of Jesus' message and the reappearance of Jesus Himself?

(Shoghi Effendi, The Light of Divine Guidance v I, p. 107)

He was very pleased to hear you are requiring all Bahá'ís to withdraw from church membership and similar organizations; he considers your Community the mother community in spirit, and is confident it will continue to lead the way in its exemplary conduct.

(Shoghi Effendi, The Light of Divine Guidance v I, p. 109)
 
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InvestigateTruth

Veteran Member
The vast majority of Baha'is are composed of at least ninety percent recognize the Baha'i Faith that is elected by the believers regularly Local Spiritual Assemblies, National Spiritual Assemblies and the Universal House of Justice.

I would say, about %99.99 of the Baha'is are the ones who recognize the Baha'i World Centre and are united. Those other groups all together would be probably just 1thousands. comparing to 6-7 million bahai's, that's around 0.01%.

That's why the Baha'i Faith has nearly perfect unity and has no so-called other sects. I personally never met anyone of them, neither I know any Baha'is who met these other so-called sects.
 
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BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
It's also worth noting that those groups spend most of their time attacking the Baha'is--as well as initiating still further splits!

Fortunately, a bunch of them are extinct already.

Bruce
 

Wombat

Active Member
It's also worth noting that those groups spend most of their time attacking the Baha'is--

If this is something they "spend most of their time" doing there must be lots of examples...I was wondering if you could please link to some of these constant attacks on Baha'is?

Please Bruce.

Many thanks in advance.

Rod.
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
If this is something they "spend most of their time" doing there must be lots of examples...I was wondering if you could please link to some of these constant attacks on Baha'is?

No thank you!!

I wish neither to link to or publicize such stuff.

Bruce
 

Wombat

Active Member
No thank you!!

I wish neither to link to or publicize such stuff.

Bruce


Ummmm....Bruce.....If it is so distasteful that you "wish neither to link to or publicize such stuff" how do you know it is there in the first place and something that is "constantly" happening?:shrug:

You haven't been peeking have you?
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member

So sorry, but you literally have NO IDEA what all I'm reading, checking, and following--nor is it my responsibilty to cater to your whims about that.

I've answered your questions; if you don't like the answers, so be it!:
not my problem or concern.

I have plenty of other concerns to pursue.
 

Wombat

Active Member
Bruce....This is a public forum...I’m not debating an issue with you I’m seeking clarification of your pov...asking you a question about what you have stated-

“It's also worth noting that those groups spend most of their time attacking the Baha'is”

Now >IF< it is true that other Baha’i factions “spend most of their time attacking the Baha'is” (under the UHJ) then-
1/ That’s an important indicator of the character/intent of other Baha’i factions,
2/ Evidence of such frequent/common attacks ought be readily available and easily seen.
3/ If >no< such evidence of "attacks" is available then the very allegation is an important indicator of the character/intent of those bringing the charge.

But you- “wish neither to link to or publicize such stuff” and then complain I “literally have NO IDEA what all I'm reading, checking, and following”.

Bruce, >IF< the other Baha’i “groups spend most of their time attacking the Baha'is” and you can’t/wont link to these frequent events then >OF COURSE< I “literally have NO IDEA what” your “reading, checking, and following”.

How could I/anyone have ANY IDEA what your reading, checking, and following if you can’t/wont link to the activities you have claimed are going on?

nor is it my responsibilty to cater to your whims about that.


Do all Baha'is not have an ongoing responsibility to The Independent Investigation of Truth?

If an inquirer sees the claim that some Baha'i factions frequently attack others is that not something that would strongly influence thier investigation?

Isn't the responsibility to the inquirer and the principle of Truth?


I've answered your questions; if you don't like the answers, so be it!: not my problem or concern..


No Bruce, you didn't answer my pertinent, reasonable and fair question relating to examples of these frequent "attacks" you claim...you just fobbed the question off.

Leaving I and any other reader to draw the obvious and only reasonable conclusion re claims and assertions of said frequent "attacks".


They probably don't exist.


I have plenty of other concerns to pursue.

Is The Independent Investigation of Truth one of them?
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
OK; thank you for clarifying!

As I've noted, essentially all I've seen of these groups is attacks on Baha'is; if they have more constructive activities they're apparently not publicized all that much. And when they appear on forums, it tends to be for this same reason.

So far as their further splitting goes, that's historic fact and can be seen by examining articles in Wikipedia and elsewhere (and yes, I know Wiki isn't necessarily considered the ideal source for anything). As to the sites these groups put up, I neither read them nor attempt to contact them. (And believe me: given that I'm on 10-12 different religion-discussion areas already, I already have lots to read every day.)

If you have specific questions, please ask them; and I'll endeavor either to answer them or to point you to sites where you can find the information you seek.

Peace,

Bruce
 

Wombat

Active Member
As I've noted, essentially all I've seen of these groups is attacks on Baha'is; if they have more constructive activities they're apparently not publicized all that much. And when they appear on forums, it tends to be for this same reason.

Bruce....this is a restatement of your prior assertion that other Baha'i factions "spend most of thier time attacking Baha'is"....All that is being asked is that some evidence/substantiation of this assertion be linked to/provided.

So far as their further splitting goes,....

I am not asking about nor am I interested in thier "splitting...I am asking for some evidence that these factions spend most of thier time "attacking" Baha'is.

If you have specific questions, please ask them; and I'll endeavor either to answer them or to point you to sites where you can find the information you seek.,....

My "specific question" has been frequently repeated since it was first asked way back in 30#-
"If this is something they "spend most of their time" doing there must be lots of examples...I was wondering if you could please link to some of these constant attacks on Baha'is?"

And the specific pertinent question remains unanswered.
 

BruceDLimber

Well-Known Member
"If this is something they "spend most of their time" doing there must be lots of examples...I was wondering if you could please link to some of these constant attacks on Baha'is?"

Once again, NO!!! I will NOT link to these sites, nor will I provide anyone else with publicity on thier behalf! IME what they do is obvious; if you've seen them already, you would no doubt already be aware of this, but if not, I will neither assist someone to find them nor will I encourage you to do so yourself!

IOV they are poisonous, and I will not try to spread poison.

If you INSIST on verifying this yourself, that's your call. But I can't--and will not--ecourage you or anyone else to do so! Again, it's your call; simply don't ask me to enable it. IMHO you are in fact better off not seeking that particular information.

I fully understand this doesn't satisfy you, but in all humility, I think you need to understand why exactly we take this position (and the reasons for it are made clear in our scriptures as well as in works by Shoghi Effendi; if you want those quoted, I can do that).

Peace,

Bruce
 
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Wombat

Active Member
Once again, NO!!! I will NOT link to these sites, nor will I provide anyone else with publicity....snip
they are poisonous, and I will not try to spread poison.
snip

That leaves only to possibilities regarding the allegation that other Baha'i factions "spend most of their time attacking Baha'is".
1/ You have seen, read and monitored this “poison” to know that it was, is and continues to be what other Baha’is "spend most of their time” doing....(and you did/didn’t? get “poisoned” in the process?”.
Or
2/ The allegation that other Baha'i factions "spend most of their time attacking Baha'is" is false, spurious, slanderous and unsupportable.
What other logical conclusions could be drawn?
Are you aware of Abdul Baha’s injunction regarding ‘slander’- “forbidden of God”?
If you INSIST on verifying this yourself, that's your call..snip... Again, it's your call

No, it is not and cannot be "my call" (nor my moral responsibility to your allegation).
How is such "verifying" possible for me/anyone interested in substantiating your allegation against other Baha'i factions?

What Google keywords would bring up these constant attacks?

Can you not even provide a hint or clue so that any Independant Investigator might see how these other Baha'i factions operate in their ongoing proliferation of anti Baha’i “poison”?


Or is it, as I am clearly suggesting, clear unsupported and unsubstantiated slander?
 
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