Baha'i wants to marry a Muslim woman, wat are the procedures according to Islam?

[Badran]

O you who have believed, obey Allah ﷻ and obey the Messenger ﷺ and those in authority among you. And if you disagree over anything, refer it to Allah ﷻ and the Messenger ﷺ, if you should believe in Allah ﷻ and the Last Day. That is the best [way] and best in result.” | Qurʾān 4:59

Yani it says OBEY ALLAH (SWT) and the Messenger (SAW). We are not commanded to obsequiousness but only if they are in accordance with the dictates of religion. On this case they are and it is up to you Badran not to only defeat the opinions of scholars, but their emphasis, reliance, and textual support from Islamic creed.

I totally agree actually. When challenging opinions of scholars and trying to do something like issuing a fatwa, or try to change people's minds, i should be ready with those things. I'm not of course ready with those things fully yet. Thats why in the issue of this thread i merely offered it as a personal opinion (that i will god willing someday be able to back up with all means).

But in some issues, i'am ready right now.

 

[Bismillah]

Thats why in the issue of this thread i merely offered it as a personal opinion (that i will god willing someday be able to back up with all means).

And yet akhi if you have no evidence and you fully admit that you are not even versed on the topic, which at this age is pitiful compared to the scholastic tradition of theological training for the imamate and maddhabs of the Sunni and Shia, then you CANNOT and SHOULD NOT even begin to think that you can hold any opinion nor that it could go against that of those who have devoted more time on the study of Islam than I have spent living on this ground.

A personal opinion without validation, support, and even religious reasoning is a dangerous distraction and ploy to weaken one's iman and to counteract perfectly sound fatwas.

 

[Badran]

And yet akhi if you have no evidence and you fully admit that you are not even versed on the topic, which at this age is pitiful compared to the scholastic tradition of theological training for the imamate and maddhabs of the Sunni and Shia, then you CANNOT and SHOULD NOT even begin to think that you can hold any opinion nor that it could go against that of those who have devoted more time on the study of Islam than I have spent living on this ground.

A personal opinion without validation, support, and even religious reasoning is a dangerous distraction and ploy to weaken one's iman and to counteract perfectly sound fatwas.

You misunderstood what i said. I didn't say i had none of these things, i said i'm not fully ready. But i do have some of those things which so far leads me to this conclusion, which is so far nothing more than a personal opinion. As i understand that this alone isn't enough to challenge the opinion of scholars on this issue.

 

[Bismillah]

i said i'm not fully ready.

And yet all scholars are. Do you not yet see the folly of your doing? You have already decided before you have the evidence before you and I use that term as loosely as possible because the amount of evidence that you will see will be a fraction of that which the scholar does.

 

[Badran]

And yet all scholars are. Do you not yet see the folly of your doing?

No i don't.

You have already decided before you have the evidence before you

No i didn't my opinions are subject to change, i said so far.

and I use that term as loosely as possible because the amount of evidence that you will see will be a fraction of that which the scholar does.

Honestly, there is no point in pursuing this subject. Its off topic and we're on complete opposite sides. You obviously hold scholars extremely higher than i do.

 

[LuisDantas]

And yet all scholars are. Do you not yet see the folly of your doing? You have already decided before you have the evidence before you and I use that term as loosely as possible because the amount of evidence that you will see will be a fraction of that which the scholar does.

Does Islam include the concept of Free Will? While I don't claim to really understand it, it seems to exist to allow recognition that while there are religious authorities, ultimately people must make their own choices and take responsibility for them.

Religious scholars lack the power to spare them of that, although their advice may often be valuable (which of course makes their mistakes that much more serious).

Is it possible that scholars should be disregarded when one has his own personal experience and goals? Is it possible that scholars lack the applicable personal knowledge? Is it possible to legitimaly disagree with scholars, even if they seem to be in agreement about some specific point?

And if it isn't, doesn't it ultimately mean that one's moral judgement is useless unless one is a scholar?

 

[Bismillah]

Here is an article dealing with the exact issue Luis, though it may be a bit tedious for a non-Muslim, if it is my apologies.

Towards Understanding Ijtihad and Taqleed: A Brief Introduction

Also a man may certainly do whatever he wish however if he is to disagree with all four maddhabs then that must be some core central issue that I have not heard and must be something so provocative that no scholar out of the centuries of theological study can agree with. Naturally if such a claim is made it would be, at best, regarded with a high dose of skepticism because believe me I don't think that any man has scratched the surface of theology since the deaths of the great scholars of Islams golden age. They would certainly have their work cut out for them.

 

[Bismillah]

Here is another article dealing with the issue as well

The Balance between Following Scholars (Taqleed) and Fanaticism (Ta`ssub)

 

[LuisDantas]

Do you consider this a theological issue, Bismillah?

Isn't marriage such a personal issue that one should be free to make up his own mind on the matter? Or, at least, isn't it true that until and unless there is some sort of break-up the consequences of either a healthy or an unhealthy marriage will fall upon primarily the couple itself?

Then again, in the interests of full honesty and disclosure I must admit that I am well aware that Islam (and Muslims) have a high regard for the responsibility of people towards society and of society towards married couples. I actually admire Islam and Muslims for that, despite some specific yet significant disagreements.

Even so, it still seems to me that ultimately marriage is basically a personal project (for two people at the same time, of course). It is not clear to me that a theological ruling should apply.

 

[Bismillah]

Do you consider this a theological issue, Bismillah?

I consider all of life a theological issue Luis

Isn't marriage such a personal issue that one should be free to make up his own mind on the matter?

One of course is free to do what they will, as sister Sahar pointed out earlier, but if one wishes to confine himself within the realm of religious purity and observance then every petty issue must fall under scrutiny so as that ever petty issue itself holds a reward for religious fulfillment and fidelity.

Looking at the issue, I can see many reasons why scholars have decided as they have both religious and worldly.

Or, at least, isn't it true that until and unless there is some sort of break-up the consequences of either a healthy or an unhealthy marriage will fall upon primarily the couple itself?

And this is exactly the heart of the issue is it not? The fact that this marriage will put the women and her household at the absolute mercy of someone who is not a Muslim and that in Islam is absolutely unacceptable. To prevent such dissolution of ill-fated marriages, the decree is thus issued. Furthermore we must look at it from not only a wordy aspect, but a religious one, is not the burden of sin heavier than that of the burden of the world?

Then again, in the interests of full honesty and disclosure I must admit that I am well aware that Islam (and Muslims) have a high regard for the responsibility of people towards society and of society towards married couples. I actually admire Islam and Muslims for that, despite some specific yet significant disagreements.

It does me no small measure of happiness that you understand the basic underlying theme of preservation, unity, stability, and bond between creation and creator.

Even so, it still seems to me that ultimately marriage is basically a personal project (for two people at the same time, of course). It is not clear to me that a theological ruling should apply.

Islam my friend is something that is intimately tied with my personal life.

 

[Sahar]

Islam my friend is something that is intimately tied with my personal life.

Very well said. :clap

 

[LuisDantas]

Thanks for your most enlightening and respectful reply, Bismillah

I consider all of life a theological issue Luis

One of course is free to do what they will, as sister Sahar pointed out earlier, but if one wishes to confine himself within the realm of religious purity and observance then every petty issue must fall under scrutiny so as that ever petty issue itself holds a reward for religious fulfillment and fidelity.

Sigh. Sometimes it hurts to be in a DIR. I want so badly to discuss that matter. Oh well.

Looking at the issue, I can see many reasons why scholars have decided as they have both religious and worldly.

And this is exactly the heart of the issue is it not? The fact that this marriage will put the women and her household at the absolute mercy of someone who is not a Muslim and that in Islam is absolutely unacceptable. To prevent such dissolution of ill-fated marriages, the decree is thus issued.

It is of course necessary to protect people and their households. Whether that means that Muslims must marry only among themselves or with women of the People of the Book is far less clear to me. It would seem to depend a lot on the economic and family situation of the people involved. Sure, in Muslim societies that may easily be strongly related to matters of faith. But we are all ultimately individual persons, and it isn't always true that the general trends apply to us.

Or to put it more to the point, I'm not sure why marrying someone who is not a Muslim would be so dangerous in and of itself. It seems to me that the specific circunstances should be taken into account. Further, it seems to me that moral character, personal conditions and of course the actual feelings and mutual understanding of the couple should be the deciding factors.

Of course, it is still a very serious project, and I can easily see how it worries people at least a bit to deal with a new, unknown quantity.

Furthermore we must look at it from not only a wordy aspect, but a religious one, is not the burden of sin heavier than that of the burden of the world?

Far from me to deny that I am wordy, but in this context it would seem that you meant worldly. Am I correct about that?

About the matter itself, I have little notion on whether Islam and Muslims will agree with me, but I think a good case can be made that it is in at least some respects a sin to have the opportunity to express one's best feelings in a healthy, wholesome way and refuse to do so without a very good reason.

It does me no small measure of happiness that you understand the basic underlying theme of preservation, unity, stability, and bond between creation and creator.

I can hardly fail to appreciate the beauty of the basic wish for a healthy society, which of course must be composed by wholesome marriages and families. Even if I agree a whole lot about the specifics of how to ensure that and the risks involved.

Islam my friend is something that is intimately tied with my personal life.

No argument there.

In fact, I fear I must stop my participation in this thread right now. This is the Islam DIR and I am no Muslim. But I want to thank you again for this exchange.

 

[Sahar]

Unfortunately, some people (Non Muslims and Muslims) fail to understand that Islam is a comprehensive way of life. Islam is the glasses I wear to see this entire world. If Islam shouldn't have a say in our personal lives, then what role religion must have? Normally, the standards by which I view the world won't be different from those by which I view my personal choices and decisions. As a Muslim, I chose my faith to be my standard. At every step the Muslim take in this life, he must ask; "Does this please my God?", "Am I doing this sincerely for the sake of God?".
Faith and personal life are not separable, as what Bismillah said

Islam my friend is something that is intimately tied with my personal life.

up to becoming like a one unit. The Muslim pursue to be the living manifestation of his religion, as much as possible. And when he sometimes slips, he hurries to turn to God asking for His forgiveness and then he can stand up again in his pursuit of happiness/God's path and heaven. My faith is my life.

 

[Peace]

Unfortunately, some people (Non Muslims and Muslims) fail to understand that Islam is a comprehensive way of life. Islam is the glasses I wear to see this entire world. If Islam shouldn't have a say in our personal lives, then what role religion must have? Normally, the standards by which I view the world won't be different from those by which I view my personal choices and decisions. As a Muslim, I chose my faith to be my standard. At every step the Muslim take in this life, he must ask; "Does this please my God?", "Am I doing this sincerely for the sake of God?".
Faith and personal life are not separable, as what Bismillah said up to becoming like a one unit. The Muslim pursue to be the living manifestation of his religion, as much as possible. And when he sometimes slips, he hurries to turn to God asking for His forgiveness and then he can stand up again in his pursuit of happiness/God's path and heaven. My faith is my life.

Islam my friend is something that is intimately tied with my personal life.

:clapVery well said sister Sahar and brother Bismillah and I totally agree and hold the same view.

 

[Starsoul]

And yet akhi if you have no evidence and you fully admit that you are not even versed on the topic, which at this age is pitiful compared to the scholastic tradition of theological training for the imamate and maddhabs of the Sunni and Shia, then you CANNOT and SHOULD NOT even begin to think that you can hold any opinion nor that it could go against that of those who have devoted more time on the study of Islam than I have spent living on this ground.

A personal opinion without validation, support, and even religious reasoning is a dangerous distraction and ploy to weaken one's iman and to counteract perfectly sound fatwas.

well said.

 

[Starsoul]

Unfortunately, some people (Non Muslims and Muslims) fail to understand that Islam is a comprehensive way of life. Islam is the glasses I wear to see this entire world. If Islam shouldn't have a say in our personal lives, then what role religion must have? Normally, the standards by which I view the world won't be different from those by which I view my personal choices and decisions. As a Muslim, I chose my faith to be my standard. At every step the Muslim take in this life, he must ask; "Does this please my God?", "Am I doing this sincerely for the sake of God?".
Faith and personal life are not separable, as what Bismillah said up to becoming like a one unit. The Muslim pursue to be the living manifestation of his religion, as much as possible. And when he sometimes slips, he hurries to turn to God asking for His forgiveness and then he can stand up again in his pursuit of happiness/God's path and heaven. My faith is my life.

very well said sahar

 

[beenie]

With all due respect, the Islamic law is completely against marriage of the Muslim woman to the non Muslim. It's mentioned clearly in the Qur'an and the Sunnah. And there is no disagreement whatsoever between the scholars about this issue. The woman who marry a non Muslim man, disobeys her God outright. And this relationship is not recognized as a halal relationship of marriage. This is a very dangerous thing. Of course, if the woman doesn't care about her religion, it can't be helped.

Multiple Fatwas fromIslamOnline:
The first verse is mentioned in Surat Al-Baqarah, verse 221, where Allah, the Almighty, says:
“And do not give (believing women) in marriage to idolaters until they believe, and certainly a believing servant is better than an idolater, even though he should please you.”

The second verse is no. 10 in Surat Al-Mumtahinah, where Allah, the Almighty, says:

“O ye who believe! When there come to you believing women refugees, examine (and test) them: Allah knows best as to their Faith: if ye ascertain that they are Believers, then send them not back to the Unbelievers. They are not lawful (wives) for the Unbelievers, nor are the (Unbelievers) lawful (husbands) for them.”

In the light of the foregoing verses and according to the practice of Muslims, it is absolutely Haram (forbidden) for a Muslim woman to get married to a non-Muslim man. This is one of the basics of Islam, and any woman is not supposed to violate the ruling whatever the case maybe.

...we conclude that it is completely Haram for a Muslim woman to get married to a non-Muslim man, and a Muslim woman must not violate this prohibition that has been established by clear-cut proofs from the Qur’an and Sunnah. If a Muslim woman does go against this ruling out of weakness in her faith, then she will still be considered a sinful Muslim committing a great sin that would even reach the stage of Zina if she knows the ruling and still denies it. However, if she violates the ruling out of stubbornness, denying the ruling of Allah, and considering this act to be permissible, while being aware of the proofs and evidence speaking against this forbidden act, then she will be considered as a Kafir and outside the fold of Islam.

Sahar, from what you've quoted above, it's clear that a Muslim woman cannot marry an idolater, but is there anything specifically stated about marrying a man from the "People of the Book"? Christians and Jews are not idolaters and are often given special dispensation in the Qur'an itself.

And do not dispute with the followers of the Book except by what is best, except those of them who act unjustly, and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our God and your God is One, and to Him do we submit. [Qur'an 29:46]

Not all of them are alike; a party of the people of the Scripture stand for the right, they recite the Verses of God during the hours of the night, prostrating themselves in prayer. They believe in God and the Last Day; they enjoin Al-Ma'rûf and forbid Al-Munkar ; and they hasten in (all) good works; and they are among the righteous. And whatever good they do, nothing will be rejected of them; for God knows well those who are Al-Muttaqûn .(3:113-115)

And there are, certainly, among the people of the Scripture (Jews and Christians), those who believe in God and in that which has been revealed to you, and in that which has been revealed to them, humbling themselves before God. They do not sell the Verses of God for a little price, for them is a reward with their Lord. Surely, God is Swift in account. '(3:199)'
Verily! Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians, and Sabians, whoever believes in God and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord, on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve . [Qur'an 2:62]

Say (O Muhammad ): "O people of the Scripture : Come to a word that is just between us and you, that we worship none but God, and that we associate no partners with Him, and that none of us shall take others as lords besides God. [Qur'an 3:64]

source

of course my source is also the Qur'an itself.

 

[WorldCitizen]

WOW been awhile since i came back to this thread, thought it was sealed... nice responses guys and girls. learning more and more.

 

[fenrisx]

Greetings

according to the Baha'i marriage ceremony the bride and groom recite the verse " we all verily abide by the Will of God" which i believe goes nothing agaisnt islamic law after they get consent from parents on both parties.

what are the procedures in Islam if i were to marry a muslim woman

regards

The man has to convert or by Islamic law it aint gonna happen

 

[beenie]

The man has to convert or by Islamic law it aint gonna happen

source?