Bahai's and the Bible. Errant or Inerrant. Holistic or cherry picking?

[Trailblazer]

Acts 2:15 These people are not drunk, as you suppose. It’s only nine in the morning! 16 No, this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
17 ‘In the last days, God says,
I will pour out my Spirit on all people.

That is not quoting Peter speaking about that Pentecost because Peter did not say "Joel was speaking about that Pentecost."

Since the last says start when Christ returns Joel could not have been speaking about Pentecost since the Day of Pentecost was back in the days when Christ walked on earth.

The Holy Spirit spoke to and through the OT prophets. The Holy Spirit testifies to our spirit. (Romans 8:16)

The Holy Spirit does speak through Prophets.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Yet, we know that The Bab and Baha'u'llah were not God. So wouldn't it be truer to say that they are not God?

In Bahai theology, God chose to manifest Himself in the Person of the Bab and Bahaullah, and spoke through them. Thus, while the individuality of Bahaullah was not God, it was God who manifested Himself in Baha'u'llah and spoke through the Mouth of Baha'u'llah.


“By My Life! Not of Mine own volition have I revealed Myself, but God, of His own choosing, hath manifested Me.”
- Bahaullah


Wouldn't it be so unfair to accuse Baha'u'llah if God chose Him, and Manifested Himself in Him?

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Yes we do.
Many of them are in this book.

Thief in the Night by William Sears

From that book:

"On 24 May 1844, in Washington D.C., Mr Samuel F. B. Morse, the inventor of the telegraph, stepped to the keyboard of his new instrument. He was about to send the first official telegram in history flashing along the wires from Washington to Baltimore. The press had heralded this day as a modern miracle. By this invention, it was said, the world would be united physically in the twinkling of an eye. These lightning-like impulses leaping along the wires would shrink the size of the planet, they said. In fact, when Congress appropriated $40,000 for Morse to continue his work, he was told that now he could send his “lightnings” to the world. Thus his invention was associated".

So do you think that the telegraph fulfulled prophecy?

Because of the Bab's declaration May 22nd 1844?

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Matthew 24:27




You might remember that I demonstrated a while ago that it is even possible to dot connect Hitler to fulfill what Bahai's connect to Baha'u'llah or the Bab.

Fair answer:
Prophecies could also be twisted and attributed to Adolf Hitler.

Find text about Maitreya arriving in the time of Hitler:

Annie Besant (1847–1933), another well-known and influential Theosophist (and future President of the Society) had also developed an interest in this area of Theosophy. In the decades of the 1890s and 1900s, along with Leadbeater (who became a close associate) and others, she became progressively convinced that the "next impulse" from the Hierarchy would happen sooner than Blavatsky's timetable. These Theosophists came to believe it would involve the imminent reappearance of Maitreya as World Teacher, a monumental event in the Theosophical scheme of things.[25] Besant had started commenting on the possible imminent arrival of the next "emissary" in 1896, several years before her assumption of the Society's presidency in 1907. By 1909 the "coming" Teacher was a main topic of her lectures and writings
Maitreya (Theosophy) - Wikipedia


We could talk about the golden age that was started. The people were golden (blonde hair).


So what about 1000 year rule of Baha'u'llah?


Another name that was popular during this period was the term Tausendjähriges Reich ("Thousand-Year Reich"), the millennial connotations of which suggested that Nazi Germany would last for a thousand years.

Reich - Wikipedia


The Swastika is an ancient symbol.

In Buddhism the swastika is considered to symbolize the auspicious footprints of the Buddha.It is an aniconic symbol for the Buddha in many parts of Asia and homologous with the dharma wheel. The shape symbolizes eternal cycling, a theme found in the samsara doctrine of Buddhism.

The word swastika comes from Sanskrit: स्वस्तिक, romanized: svástika, meaning "conducive to well-being".In Hinduism, the right-facing symbol (卐) is called swastika, symbolizing surya ("sun")


Swastika - Wikipedia

Here is another one to think about:

August 19th 1934 was when Hitler became President of Germany.
August 25th 1934 was the first public demonstration of the television.


Television translates to "Far sight".
Now most homes worldwide have television.

Electricity and light. Lightning.



In 1936 Hitler showed something to the world:

Which do you think is more like lightning - Telegraph or Television?

 

[Trailblazer]

From that book:

"On 24 May 1844, in Washington D.C., Mr Samuel F. B. Morse, the inventor of the telegraph, stepped to the keyboard of his new instrument. He was about to send the first official telegram in history flashing along the wires from Washington to Baltimore. The press had heralded this day as a modern miracle. By this invention, it was said, the world would be united physically in the twinkling of an eye. These lightning-like impulses leaping along the wires would shrink the size of the planet, they said. In fact, when Congress appropriated $40,000 for Morse to continue his work, he was told that now he could send his “lightnings” to the world. Thus his invention was associated".

So do you think that the telegraph fulfulled prophecy?

Because of the Bab's declaration May 22nd 1844?

For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Matthew 24:27

I do not think that the invention of the telegraph fulfilled prophecy, but I think that the coming of the Bab and His declaration on May 22nd 1844 fulfilled the prophecy of Daniel:

The third promise: All mankind would see “the abomination of desolation” foretold by Daniel the Prophet.

I found the third promise of Christ to be the most interesting of all. It was given in the twenty-fourth chapter of Matthew.

The third promise was again given in direct answer to the questions of His disciples:

“And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? And what shall be the sign of thy coming?” (Matthew 24:3)

Christ foretold that ‘iniquity would abound’ in that day, and that the ‘love of many shall wax cold’; then He makes His third promise in these words:

“When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth let him understand.)” (Matthew 24:15.)

He told His disciples to ‘stand in the holy place’ when Daniel’s prophecy about the ‘abomination of desolation’ was fulfilled. In that day He promised:

“… they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven …” (Matthew 24:30)

I followed the pattern of the millennial scholars of the 1840s and carefully examined Daniel’s prophecy concerning the ‘abomination of desolation’. His exact words were:

“How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the abomination of desolation, to give the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.” (Daniel 8:13–14)

Thus, Daniel prophesied that two thousand three hundred days (2,300) would pass before the sanctuary would be cleansed. Following this time, all things would be made pure again. Before this time, the people would have fallen into a state of ‘abomination’ without love for God or man; then the Messiah would appear and restore their Faith and the purity of their belief. This was the general conclusion.

When would this take place? Daniel said it would come to pass in 2,300 days. In prophecy, this becomes 2,300 years.

Using the same frame of reference for the second coming, as was used for the first coming (the decree of Artaxerxes), the Bible scholars made the following calculations:

1. The decree was issued in 457. They subtracted 457 from 2,300 and arrived at 1,843. Thus the year 1843, they said, would mark the beginning of the end of the ‘abomination of desolation’

2. Some scholars pointed out that from the issuing of the decree in 457 until the birth of Christ there were 456 years, not 457; therefore, it was necessary to subtract 456 from 2,300. This left the year 1844.

Although many disputes arose as to the exact month, day, and hour, there was a basic agreement among nearly all that Christ’s return must take place between the years 1843 and 1845, with the year 1844 as the central point of reference.

One group of Christian scholars worked out Daniel’s prophecy in the greatest detail. They even built a special chart to show that Christ would return in the middle of the year 1844. (Bible Reading, Ed. Review and Herald Pub. Co. (Battle Creek, Michigan), p. 94.)

From: http://bahai-library.com/pdf/s/sears_thief_night.pdf

I believe that Mathew 24:27 refers specifically to Baha'u'llah.The Bab was the Gate by which Baha'u'llah entered, but Baha'u'llah was actually the return of the Son of man.

The book of Ezekiel spoke of a great Figure who would come in those days. He said: “And, behold, the glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east.” (Ezekiel 43:2)

This was clearly a reference to the second coming of Christ and not the first, for Jesus did not come from the way of the East, He came from north and west of Jerusalem. Isaiah in like manner spoke of the wondrous Figure who would come from the East. Isaiah said that it was God Himself Who had “… raised up the righteous man from the east, called him to his foot, gave the nations before him, and made him rule over kings.” (Isaiah 41:2) Even Christ Himself pointed to the direction from which He would appear in the day of His second coming. Speaking of that day, He said: “For as the lightning cometh out of the East … so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.”(Matthew 24:27)

William Sears, Thief in the Night, pp. 73-75

The prophet Ezekiel also foretold that the Messiah would come to the Holy Land, Israel, from the East. He even gave the title by which He would be known in that day: The Glory of God [or the Glory of the Lord]. Ezekiel recorded his vision of the last days, saying:“And behold, the Glory of the God of Israel came from the way of the east…” (Ezekiel 43:2).

In another place, Ezekiel says: “And the Glory of the Lord came into the house by way of the gate whose prospect is toward the east.”(Ezekiel 43:4).

I had already learned that the name Bahá’u’lláh was Persian, and when translated into English means, The Glory of God or The Glory of the Lord.His herald was called the Báb. This is also Persian, and translated into English means, The Gate.

The Báb was the Gate by which Bahá’u’lláh, the Glory of God, entered into the hearts of men. Bahá’u’lláh had come to Israel in exile from Persia which is to the East. I was more than satisfied by my findings. I learned that Bahá’u’lláh had completed the prophesies of Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, Daniel, Micah, Zoroaster, Buddha, Muhammad, and many secular prophesies as well—all of which pointed to the time and the place from which the Shepherd of the day of the ‘one fold’ would come.

I marked the first proof: Fulfilled.

William Sears, Thief in the Night, pp. 109-111

 

[WonderingWorrier]

When would this take place? Daniel said it would come to pass in 2,300 days. In prophecy, this becomes 2,300 years.

Using the same frame of reference for the second coming, as was used for the first coming (the decree of Artaxerxes), the Bible scholars made the following calculations:

1. The decree was issued in 457. They subtracted 457 from 2,300 and arrived at 1,843. Thus the year 1843, they said, would mark the beginning of the end of the ‘abomination of desolation’

2. Some scholars pointed out that from the issuing of the decree in 457 until the birth of Christ there were 456 years, not 457; therefore, it was necessary to subtract 456 from 2,300. This left the year 1844.

"First of all, let us look at the major alternatives. According to Dan 9:25, the "seventy weeks" begins with a "decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem" (Dan 9:25, NIV). What is this "decree"? Most conservative interpreters have identified the decree either as the decree of Cyrus king of Persia in about 538 B.C. (Ezra 1:2-4),[1] or the decree of Artaxerxes concerning Nehemiah's rebuilding (Neh 2:8-9), in 445 or 444 B.C.[2]

Other dates have sometimes been proposed (e.g., 457 B.c.),[3] but I wish at this point to concentrate on the main options".

Hermeneutical Factors In Determining The Beginning Of The Seventy Weeks (Daniel 9:25) by Wern Sheridan Poythress (biblicalstudies.org.uk)


Make 2,300 days into 2,300 years.
Then make it our calendar year 2,300.
Then take a proposed year of the decree 456 to subtract it from the year 2,300.
So you get 1844.

 

[Trailblazer]

"First of all, let us look at the major alternatives. According to Dan 9:25, the "seventy weeks" begins with a "decree to restore and rebuild Jerusalem" (Dan 9:25, NIV). What is this "decree"? Most conservative interpreters have identified the decree either as the decree of Cyrus king of Persia in about 538 B.C. (Ezra 1:2-4),[1] or the decree of Artaxerxes concerning Nehemiah's rebuilding (Neh 2:8-9), in 445 or 444 B.C.[2]

Other dates have sometimes been proposed (e.g., 457 B.c.),[3] but I wish at this point to concentrate on the main options".

Hermeneutical Factors In Determining The Beginning Of The Seventy Weeks (Daniel 9:25) by Wern Sheridan Poythress (biblicalstudies.org.uk)


Make 2,300 days into 2,300 years.
Then make it our calendar year 2,300.
Then take a proposed year of the decree 456 to subtract it from the year 2,300.
So you get 1844.

Sorry, I tell people about that Daniel prophecy but I do not interpret it or analyze it myself. I will analyze any other prophecy but that one as it is a virtual Pandora's Box. Of course sine I am a Baha'i, I have no question as to whether 1844 was the correct year. The Persons of the Bab and Baha'u'llah and what they wrote is adequate proof for me, and the incredible history of the Baha'i Faith is added proof..

 

[WonderingWorrier]

Sorry, I tell people about that Daniel prophecy but I do not interpret it or analyze it myself. I will analyze any other prophecy but that one as it is a virtual Pandora's Box. Of course sine I am a Baha'i, I have no question as to whether 1844 was the correct year. The Persons of the Bab and Baha'u'llah and what they wrote is adequate proof for me, and the incredible history of the Baha'i Faith is added proof..

Ok. So you haven't questioned the calculation reaching 1844. You have accepted it on faith.

I have to look closely at the evidence you presented.

For a start I would have to know how did 2300 days change to 2300 years. And how 2300 years became meaning our calendar year 2300 AD.

 

[WonderingWorrier]

I do not think that the invention of the telegraph fulfilled prophecy, but I think that the coming of the Bab and His declaration on May 22nd 1844 fulfilled the prophecy of Daniel:

Why do you think the Bahai telegraph prophecy is not correct?

 

[Trailblazer]

Ok. So you haven't questioned the calculation reaching 1844. You have accepted it on faith.

I became a Baha'i 43 years before I ever read one page of the Bible. That was 50 years ago. My decision to become a Baha'i had nothing to do with Bible prophecies, it was based upon the Person of Baha'u'llah, His Revelation, and His Writings.

Do you think you can prove that 1844 is not when Christ returned by using the Bible?

 

[Trailblazer]

Why do you think the Bahai telegraph prophecy is not correct?

The development of the telegraph was not prophesied. It just so happened that it coincided with the Coming of the Bab and it is an interesting point.

 

[CG Didymus]

Ok. So you haven't questioned the calculation reaching 1844. You have accepted it on faith.

I have to look closely at the evidence you presented.

For a start I would have to know how did 2300 days change to 2300 years. And how 2300 years became meaning our calendar year 2300 AD.

The question I've been asking Baha'is. In context Daniel 8 is about a goat and a ram. Then it says which empires the goat and ram represent. One of them is the Greek empire. One of their leaders puts a stop to the daily sacrifice. And, from what I've read Antiochus did put a stop to the daily sacrifice. And we know when that happened. So, I'm wondering, why doesn't the prophecy start then? In fact, we know when the Temple got rededicated. But, it is not 2300 days in-between. But 7th Day Adventists and Baha'is go all the way back to 456BC to the decree to rebuild Jerusalem? Which, to me, has nothing to do with the context of a Greek leader putting a stop to the daily sacrifice. What they do have going for them is that they get to a very important year in the Baha'i Faith, 1844.

“How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the abomination of desolation, to give the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.” (Daniel 8:13–14)

So how long is it between the daily sacrifice etc. and the sanctuary being cleansed? For Baha'is to answer is how is the decree to rebuild Jerusalem made into the daily sacrifice and the rest of those things? I do believe they have a "symbolic" explanation I think from Abdul Baha. Which is good enough for them, but makes no sense to me.

Using the same frame of reference for the second coming, as was used for the first coming (the decree of Artaxerxes), the Bible scholars made the following calculations:

1. The decree was issued in 457. They subtracted 457 from 2,300 and arrived at 1,843. Thus the year 1843, they said, would mark the beginning of the end of the ‘abomination of desolation’

Who are these "Bible" scholars? One was William Miller, but who else? Here's an article about the Baha'i interpretation...

The Baha’i teachings say that the advent of the Bab, one of the twin prophets of the Baha’i era along with Baha’u’llah, began the “cleansing of the sanctuary” with a new revelation from God. Could the sanctuary to be cleansed be the heart of humankind?

“In Daniel 8:13 it is said: … And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.” … That is to say, how long shall this misfortune, this ruin, this abasement and degradation endure? Or, when will the morn of Revelation dawn? … Briefly, the point is that he fixes a period of 2,300 years, for according to the text of the Torah each day is one year. Therefore, from the date of the edict of Artaxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem until the day of the birth of Christ there are 456 years, and from the birth of Christ until the day of the advent of the Bab there are 1,844 years, and if 456 years are added to this number it makes 2,300 years. That is to say, the fulfilment of the vision of Daniel took place in A.D. 1844, and this is the year of the advent of the Bab. Examine the text of the Book of Daniel and observe how clearly he fixes the year of His advent! There could indeed be no clearer prophecy for a Manifestation than this.” – Abdu’l-Baha, Some Answered Questions, pp. 48-49.

In other verses, Daniel also offered the number 1,290 to ponder:

“And from the time that the daily sacrifice shall be taken away, and the abomination that maketh desolate set up, there shall be a thousand two hundred and ninety days.

Blessed is he that waiteth, and cometh to the thousand three hundred and five and thirty days.” – Daniel 12:11-12.

There are 1,290 lunar years in the Islamic calendar from the date of Muhammad’s declaration of his station as a prophet of God in the year 613, to Baha’u’llah’s declaration of his station as a prophet of God in 1863.

Reverting to solar years, Daniel gives his final numerical prophecy and is then told that his mission on Earth is finished:

“But go thou thy way till the end be: for thou shalt rest, and stand in thy lot at the end of the days.” – Daniel 12:13.

Prophetically, the 1,290 and the 1,335 days/years go together, the first logically following the second. The 1,335 solar years begin with the year 628, the year Muhammad signed a treaty with his enemies in Mecca that signified that recognized the Muslim community in Medina not only as a legitimate force, but also one to be respected and accorded contractual or diplomatic status.

The 1,335 solar years added to 628 equals 1,963 years, or the calendar year 1963, a momentous period in Baha’i history. That was the year when members of the world’s National Spiritual Assemblies cast their ballots to elect the first Universal House of Justice – the global administrative body of the Baha’i Faith. The declaration of Baha’u’llah in 1863 (the 1,290 years) was followed in 1963 (the 1,335 years) by completion of the three-tiered Baha’i administrative order at the local, national and international levels, devised by Baha’u’llah for the internal governance of the Baha’i Faith.​

 

[CG Didymus]

Do you think you can prove that 1844 is not when Christ returned by using the Bible?

Is The Bab considered "The Christ" or "The Messiah"? If so, then The Bab and Baha'u'llah are "The Messiahs"? Which is one question I've been asking. Do Baha'is not only have Baha'u'llah being the "return" of Christ but also Muhammad and The Bab. Which, for the Jews, would mean they would have four "Messiahs" predicted in their Scriptures. To me, it seems like Baha'is would have to interpret it that way, because Baha'is have them all being manifestations of God and all being equal.

 

[Trailblazer]

So how long is it between the daily sacrifice etc. and the sanctuary being cleansed? For Baha'is to answer is how is the decree to rebuild Jerusalem made into the daily sacrifice and the rest of those things? I do believe they have a "symbolic" explanation I think from Abdul Baha. Which is good enough for them, but makes no sense to me.

I have never really tried to figure this out because I know my limitations and like I said before it is a moot point for me since i know what happened in 1844, so I do not need the calculations to prove that to myself.

Yes, most Baha'is just accept what Abdu'l-Baha said, but not all Baha'is do. Duane (Truthseeker9) has concerns with what Abdu'l-Baha said, but he does not want to get in a discussion on this forum about his concerns. Since he doesn't want to discuss it here, I do not think he would mind f I quote him:

CG said: Tell your friend that I'm questioning why start the 2300 days in 456BC? That was the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. It has nothing to do with the daily sacrifice being stopped. Whereas Antiochus Epiphanes apparently did.

Duane said: I ask the same question. 'Abdu'l-Baha seems to imply above that the decree to rebuild Jerusalem is the beginning of the transgression of desolation when He says "how long shall this misfortune, this ruin, this abasement and degradation endure". Rebuilding Jerusalem is not a beginning of desolation.

Then later in response to another e-mail:

Duane said:

If I have a hard time understanding that 'Abdu'l-Baha was right, why would I accept Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah Witnesses, or Mormons were right?

I already knew about William Miller's conclusion from Thief in the Night. Because William Miller and Abdu'l-Baha basically agree that doesn't make the argument any stronger for me. Abdu'l-Baha was an inspired person, whether you would agree He was infallible or not. William Miller I don't know if he could have been or not. Independent investigation of truth, remember? I try to see it "Abdu'l-Baha's way, but sometimes I have trouble.

The 1260 in the Islamic calendar pointing to 1844 I think is actually stronger for me.

Sorry, I've had trouble with that prophecy myself and validity of Daniel being written before 457 B.C. According to a number of scholars the book of Daniel was written about the time that CG cited as the time of Antiochus Epiphanes , that is 167 B.C. Now that I think of it rationally what 'Abdu'l-Baha says does not seem right:

In Daniel 8:13 it is said: “Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed”, until it says: “at the time of the end shall be the vision”. That is to say, how long shall this misfortune, this ruin, this abasement and degradation endure? Or, when will the morn of Revelation dawn? Then he said, “two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed”. Briefly, the point is that he fixes a period of 2,300 years, for according to the text of the Torah each day is one year. ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, "Some Answered Questions", 10.16

Later in the same paragraph:

Therefore, from the date of the edict of Artaxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem until the day of the birth of Christ there are 456 years, and from the birth of Christ until the day of the advent of the Báb there are 1,844 years, and if 456 years are added to this number it makes 2,300 years.‘Abdu’l-Bahá, "Some Answered Questions", 10.16

 

[Trailblazer]

Is The Bab considered "The Christ" or "The Messiah"? If so, then The Bab and Baha'u'llah are "The Messiahs"? Which is one question I've been asking. Do Baha'is not only have Baha'u'llah being the "return" of Christ but also Muhammad and The Bab. Which, for the Jews, would mean they would have four "Messiahs" predicted in their Scriptures. To me, it seems like Baha'is would have to interpret it that way, because Baha'is have them all being manifestations of God and all being equal.

Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah are all Manifestations of God and they are equal in stature but they each had a different mission on earth. The Bab is the Mahdi who the Muslims were waiting for and Baha'u'llah is the Messiah that the Jews and Christians are waiting for, and Baha'u'llah is also the return of Christ that Christians are waiting for.

Jesus was also the Messiah, but not the Messiah of the latter days (end times), so when Christians want Jews to accept Jesus as the Messiah they are partly correct, but since Jesus did not (and will not) fulfill the Messianic Age prophecies, Christians cannot expect Jews to believe that Jesus is the Messiah. Nevertheless, Jews should have accepted Jesus as a Manifestation of God when He appeared and they should accept Jesus now.

 

[CG Didymus]

I have never really tried to figure this out because I know my limitations and like I said before it is a moot point for me since i know what happened in 1844, so I do not need the calculations to prove that to myself.

Yes, most Baha'is just accept what Abdu'l-Baha said, but not all Baha'is do. Duane (Truthseeker9) has concerns with what Abdu'l-Baha said, but he does not want to get in a discussion on this forum about his concerns. Since he doesn't want to discuss it here, I do not think he would mind f I quote him:

CG said: Tell your friend that I'm questioning why start the 2300 days in 456BC? That was the decree to rebuild Jerusalem. It has nothing to do with the daily sacrifice being stopped. Whereas Antiochus Epiphanes apparently did.

Duane said: I ask the same question. 'Abdu'l-Baha seems to imply above that the decree to rebuild Jerusalem is the beginning of the transgression of desolation when He says "how long shall this misfortune, this ruin, this abasement and degradation endure". Rebuilding Jerusalem is not a beginning of desolation.

Then later in response to another e-mail:

Duane said:

If I have a hard time understanding that 'Abdu'l-Baha was right, why would I accept Seventh Day Adventists, Jehovah Witnesses, or Mormons were right?

I already knew about William Miller's conclusion from Thief in the Night. Because William Miller and Abdu'l-Baha basically agree that doesn't make the argument any stronger for me. Abdu'l-Baha was an inspired person, whether you would agree He was infallible or not. William Miller I don't know if he could have been or not. Independent investigation of truth, remember? I try to see it "Abdu'l-Baha's way, but sometimes I have trouble.

The 1260 in the Islamic calendar pointing to 1844 I think is actually stronger for me.

Sorry, I've had trouble with that prophecy myself and validity of Daniel being written before 457 B.C. According to a number of scholars the book of Daniel was written about the time that CG cited as the time of Antiochus Epiphanes , that is 167 B.C. Now that I think of it rationally what 'Abdu'l-Baha says does not seem right:

In Daniel 8:13 it is said: “Then I heard one saint speaking, and another saint said unto that certain saint which spake, How long shall be the vision concerning the daily sacrifice, and the transgression of desolation, to give both the sanctuary and the host to be trodden under foot? And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed”, until it says: “at the time of the end shall be the vision”. That is to say, how long shall this misfortune, this ruin, this abasement and degradation endure? Or, when will the morn of Revelation dawn? Then he said, “two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed”. Briefly, the point is that he fixes a period of 2,300 years, for according to the text of the Torah each day is one year. ‘Abdu’l-Bahá, "Some Answered Questions", 10.16

Later in the same paragraph:

Therefore, from the date of the edict of Artaxerxes to rebuild Jerusalem until the day of the birth of Christ there are 456 years, and from the birth of Christ until the day of the advent of the Báb there are 1,844 years, and if 456 years are added to this number it makes 2,300 years.‘Abdu’l-Bahá, "Some Answered Questions", 10.16

Tell Duane thanks. I'm hoping WonderingWorrier finds something.

 

[CG Didymus]

Muhammad, the Bab and Baha'u'llah are all Manifestations of God and they are equal in stature but they each had a different mission on earth. The Bab is the Mahdi who the Muslims were waiting for and Baha'u'llah is the Messiah that the Jews and Christians are waiting for, and Baha'u'llah is also the return of Christ that Christians are waiting for.

Jesus was also the Messiah, but not the Messiah of the latter days (end times), so when Christians want Jews to accept Jesus as the Messiah they are partly correct, but since Jesus did not (and will not) fulfill the Messianic Age prophecies, Christians cannot expect Jews to believe that Jesus is the Messiah. Nevertheless, Jews should have accepted Jesus as a Manifestation of God when He appeared and they should accept Jesus now.

I don't know how many Jews would have been needed to make a difference? The Jewish Christians got in trouble for wanting to keep following the Law.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't know how many Jews would have been needed to make a difference? The Jewish Christians got in trouble for wanting to keep following the Law.

From my perspective, it would make a difference for individual Jews if they accepted Jesus as a Manifestation of God because Jesus was a important Manifestation of God, so as I see it Jews are missing out on everything Jesus taught by not believing in Him.

As i just told dybmh on the other thread Christianity really mucked up what Judaism taught. One way the Christians mucked up what Judaism taught is by Paul teaching that the Christians were no longer under the Law because they are saved by grace since Jesus died for them.

 

[CG Didymus]

From my perspective, it would make a difference for individual Jews if they accepted Jesus as a Manifestation of God because Jesus was a important Manifestation of God, so as I see it Jews are missing out on everything Jesus taught by not believing in Him.

As i just told dybmh on the other thread Christianity really mucked up what Judaism taught. One way the Christians mucked up what Judaism taught is by Paul teaching that the Christians were no longer under the Law because they are saved by grace since Jesus died for them.

Where you and I agree is that much of the Bible stories, I believe never happened. ..The Tower of Babel, the pillar of salt, manna from heaven, etc. But I carry it even further, I find it hard to believe a real God told the Israelite people to stone to death their people for breaking certain of the laws. Then had them sacrifice animals to atone for their sins. But the Bible is presented to the people as being the very Word of God, so what are they supposed to do? It's not supposed to be questioned but strictly obeyed and followed.

Like the story of Abraham. He hears what he believes to be God speaking to him and he obeys. Even though the voice tells him to kill his only son. That wasn't carried out. God stopped him just before he plunged the knife into his son. But how many Israelites died because they broke a law that carried the penalty of stoning? Then comes Jesus, Paul and the Christians and puts a stop to all that. That's another place where I would agree with Baha'is, that's more progressive. No more killing people and animals. Besides, stoning to death adulterers and adulteresses never stopped the behavior. Killing and sacrificing animals didn't stop people from sinning. And, did it really get God to forgive the sins of the people? Especially if those same people kept committing the same sins year after year? I get the feeling that God expects people to completely and totally repent of their wrong behavior, then I can see how God would forgive them of their past mistakes.

But no matter what you and I think the Jews should have done or should do, it's their religion. It's their Holy Book. If it tells them that God said do those things, then they should do them. If God, through the prophets, told them what to expect from a coming Messiah, then they should watch for those things and only follow someone who completely fulfills those things. Jesus didn't fulfill them. Jesus didn't bring peace. Neither did Muhammad and The Bab and the only thing Baha'is have to say is that the peace process has been "ushered" in by Baha'u'llah and will come... eventually.

And this is where I agree with the Jews and the Christians, the bad stuff, the tribulations, haven't happened yet. With two World Wars and environmental disasters and all the pandemics, it seem very much like we're still heading for the worst of the tribulations. The Jews and Christians have the Messiah coming right at the end, the worst of it. Baha'is have the world turning to them when the worst of it hits. We'll see.

 

[Trailblazer]

But no matter what you and I think the Jews should have done or should do, it's their religion. It's their Holy Book. If it tells them that God said do those things, then they should do them. If God, through the prophets, told them what to expect from a coming Messiah, then they should watch for those things and only follow someone who completely fulfills those things.

According to their understanding of their scriptures, but their understanding could be wrong, that is the problem with relying upon it. I believe that their understanding was wrong regarding Jesus and Muhammad being Manifestations of God, so why would their understanding regarding the Messiah be right?

Jesus didn't fulfill them. Jesus didn't bring peace. Neither did Muhammad and The Bab and the only thing Baha'is have to say is that the peace process has been "ushered" in by Baha'u'llah and will come... eventually.

Jesus and Muhammad were not slated to fulfill the Messianic prophecies or bring peace, but they were still Manifestations of God and thye should have been recognized as such.

And this is where I agree with the Jews and the Christians, the bad stuff, the tribulations, haven't happened yet. With two World Wars and environmental disasters and all the pandemics, it seem very much like we're still heading for the worst of the tribulations. The Jews and Christians have the Messiah coming right at the end, the worst of it. Baha'is have the world turning to them when the worst of it hits. We'll see.

The belief that the bad stuff, the tribulations, will happen right before the Messiah comes is just according to their understanding of their scriptures. The Jews and Christians might have the Messiah coming right at the end, at the worst of it, but that does not mean they are right. It is all according to their understanding of scriptures.

I can read the same scriptures and come up with a completely different interpretation. So who is right and who is wrong?

 

[WonderingWorrier]

The question I've been asking Baha'is. In context Daniel 8 is about a goat and a ram. Then it says which empires the goat and ram represent. One of them is the Greek empire. One of their leaders puts a stop to the daily sacrifice. And, from what I've read Antiochus did put a stop to the daily sacrifice. And we know when that happened. So, I'm wondering, why doesn't the prophecy start then? In fact, we know when the Temple got rededicated. But, it is not 2300 days in-between. But 7th Day Adventists and Baha'is go all the way back to 456BC to the decree to rebuild Jerusalem? Which, to me, has nothing to do with the context of a Greek leader putting a stop to the daily sacrifice. What they do have going for them is that they get to a very important year in the Baha'i Faith, 1844.

If 1844 is the answer they are looking for then they can easily find prophecy calculation that fits and adopt it. They can show it as evidence but that doesn't necessarily confirm what they are saying. You can find calculations based on the bible for any year that you want to look for.

Like Sir Isaac Newton did a calculation that the millennium reign of Christ would begin in 2016.

"Prior to Adam Clarke (Methodist), Jonathan Edwards, an Evangelical Reformed (Congregational) theologian commented on the views of his more well-known predecessors and contemporaries, and wrote that Sir Isaac Newton, Robert Fleming (Presbyterian), Moses Lowman (Presbyterian), Phillip Doddridge (Congregational), and Bishop Thomas Newton (Anglican), were in agreement that the 1,260 timeline should be calculated from the year 756 AD.[83]

F.A. Cox (Congregationalist) confirmed that this was the view of Sir Isaac Newton and others, including himself:

“The author adopts the hypothesis of Fleming, Sir Isaac Newton, and Lowman, that the 1260 years commenced in A.d. 756; and consequently that the millennium will not begin till the year 2016"

Day-year principle - Wikipedia



I looked closer at their calculation.
The changing 2300 days into 2300 years has been based on this verse:

And when thou hast accomplished them, lie again on thy right side, and thou shalt bear the iniquity of the house of Judah forty days: I have appointed thee each day for a year. Ezekiel 4:6



They can then use that verse to begin their calculation.
Based on the bible: 1 day equals one year.




It seems they do not consider this verse:

For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night. Psalm 90:4


Because that makes the start or their calculation into 1 day equals 1000 years.