Baha'is promoting ideas and interests contrary to those of their supreme council

[Jim]

Some Baha'is think that it's wrong for any Baha'i to promote any ideas or interests contrary to the ideas and interests of their supreme council, the Universal House of Justice. I'm not one of them. I don't think it's wrong, or contrary to Baha'i scriptures, to promote ideas and interests contrary to those of the House of Justice. For example, I don't think it's wrong for Baha'is who disagree with the House of Justice about homosexuality or gay marriage, about excluding women from its membership, about its role and authority, about Baha'i scholarship, about the infallibility of Baha'i scriptures, or even about the claims of Baha'u'llah, to promote their ideas about that, online or offline. Besides, it looks to me like some of the ones who think it's wrong, do it themselves in Internet discussions.

Of course, I might be wrong about all that.

ETA:

I think that it's important for the success of the Baha'i Faith in its purposes, for Baha'is who disagree with the House of Justice to feel free, and to be free, to promote their ideas among Baha'is, online and offline.

Of course, I might be wrong about that too.

 

[Nakosis]

Some Baha'is think that it's wrong for any Baha'i to promote any ideas or interests contrary to the ideas and interests of their supreme council, the Universal House of Justice. I'm not one of them. I don't think it's wrong, or contrary to Baha'i scriptures, to promote ideas and interests contrary to those of the House of Justice. For example, I don't think it's wrong for Baha'is who disagree with the House of Justice about homosexuality or gay marriage, about excluding women from its membership, about its role and authority, about Baha'i scholarship, about the infallibility of Baha'i scriptures, or even about the claims of Baha'u'llah, to promote their ideas about that, online or offline. Besides, it looks to me like some of the ones who think it's wrong, do it themselves in Internet discussions.

Of course, I might be wrong about all that.

ETA:

I think that it's important for the success of the Baha'i Faith in its purposes, for Baha'is who disagree with the House of Justice to feel free, and to be free, to promote their ideas among Baha'is, online and offline.

Of course, I might be wrong about that too.

Once a movement coalesces into a group, politics becomes important really for the survival of the group. Can't just have folks running about with their own idea of how things ought to be. That'd be anarchy.

I kind of have a fondness for anarchy myself.

 

[George-ananda]

Some Baha'is think that it's wrong for any Baha'i to promote any ideas or interests contrary to the ideas and interests of their supreme council, the Universal House of Justice. I'm not one of them.

I think if you promote ideas or interests contrary to the Universal House of Justice, then you are not a member of the official Baha'i Faith. You are a considered a Covenant Breaker if you fail to mend your ways.

The Baha'i Faith has taken great pains to ensure a clear orthodoxy is held. Most westerners as yourself would like it to be open to many (usually more liberal) positions but that is not the official stance of the orthodox Baha'i Faith.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

but that is not the official stance of the orthodox Baha'i Faith.

Just a note George-ananda. There is only One Baha'i Faith.

There is no Orthodox attached to the Name.

It is a follower of Baha'u'llah and it is Baha'u'llah that gave the Covenant.

As such there will be as many thoughts about what Baha'u'llah offered as there is the number of Baha'i. The important thing is that the Covenant given by Baha'u'llah that allows the Faith to remain undivided.

Regards Tony

 

[Jim]

I think if you promote ideas or interests contrary to the Universal House of Justice, then you are not a member of the official Baha'i Faith.

What makes you think that there aren't any Baha'is promoting any ideas or interests contrary to the ideas and interests of the House of Justice? I see Baha'is doing that all the time on the Internet. Do you think they're lying about their membership?

ETA:

Three people who were promoting ideas and interests that might be contrary to those of the House of Justice, posted messages that they said were from the House of Justice, disqualifying them from the membership. Personally I don't think it was only because of the ideas and interests they were promoting, but even if it was, do you think that there aren't any members still promoting those same ideas and interests, or that the House of Justice doesn't know that they are?

 

[George-ananda]

Just a note George-ananda. There is only One Baha'i Faith.

There is no Orthodox attached to the Name.

I know that. I wasn't attaching 'Orthodox' to the name but using the word 'orthodox' as an adjective.

It is a follower of Baha'u'llah and it is Baha'u'llah that gave the Covenant.

We agree.

As such there will be as many thoughts about what Baha'u'llah offered as there is the number of Baha'i. The important thing is that the Covenant given by Baha'u'llah that allows the Faith to remain undivided.

My point was that promoting positions contrary to the covenant as interpreted by the Guardian and the Universal House of Justice is not permitted. I am sure many individual Baha'is do promote such contrary positions but should that fact reach the appropriate authorities, the individual member's position would not be tolerated.

 

[George-ananda]

What makes you think that there aren't any Baha'is promoting any ideas or interests contrary to the ideas and interests of the House of Justice? I see Baha'is doing that all the time on the Internet. Do you think they're lying about their membership?

Of course a Baha'i can promote any position they want on any subject, but my point is that should a position contrary to the official position be brought to the appropriate higher authorities, the contrary position would not be tolerated as acceptable.

 

[Jim]

@George-ananda Do you think that the House of Justice doesn't know about the members who are promoting ideas and interests contrary to their own, or doesn't know who they are?

 

[George-ananda]

@George-ananda Do you think that the House of Justice doesn't know about the members who are promoting ideas and interests contrary to their own, or doesn't know who they are?

Certainly not everything can reach their attention. But official statement's from UHOJ will never accept Bahai's holding positions contrary to stated positions.

 

[siti]

Just a note George-ananda. There is only One Baha'i Faith.

There is no Orthodox attached to the Name.

There is not only one Baha'i Faith, there have been several small offshoots of which one is actually called the Orthodox Baha'i Faith.

 

[Jim]

Certainly not everything can reach their attention. But official statement's from UHOJ will never accept Bahai's holding positions contrary to stated positions.

Are you being deliberately obtuse?

Do you think that the House of Justice doesn’t know the names of any of the members of the Baha’i Faith who are promoting ideas and interests contrary to its own, and which national membership lists they’re on? Some of them use their real names in Internet discussions and in blogs, and everyone knows where they live. Some of them have submitted papers to Baha’i studies journals about their contrary views, without losing their membership. Do you disagree with any of that?

 

[Dawnofhope]

Some Baha'is think that it's wrong for any Baha'i to promote any ideas or interests contrary to the ideas and interests of their supreme council, the Universal House of Justice. I'm not one of them. I don't think it's wrong, or contrary to Baha'i scriptures, to promote ideas and interests contrary to those of the House of Justice. For example, I don't think it's wrong for Baha'is who disagree with the House of Justice about homosexuality or gay marriage, about excluding women from its membership, about its role and authority, about Baha'i scholarship, about the infallibility of Baha'i scriptures, or even about the claims of Baha'u'llah, to promote their ideas about that, online or offline. Besides, it looks to me like some of the ones who think it's wrong, do it themselves in Internet discussions.

Of course, I might be wrong about all that.

ETA:

I think that it's important for the success of the Baha'i Faith in its purposes, for Baha'is who disagree with the House of Justice to feel free, and to be free, to promote their ideas among Baha'is, online and offline.

Of course, I might be wrong about that too.

There are certainly limits to freedom of speech as with any faith. The Baha'i writings have much to say about freedom of speech as does the Universal House of Justice. Of course if you feel free to speak againt the Universal House of Justice about gay marriage then you will ignore what they say about the limits on free speech too.

Individual Rights and Freedoms—The Universal House of Justice

In practice its extremely difficult to lose your membership in the Baha'i Faith. The rare instances I've seen it happening concerned one or two who had been criticising the Baha'i administration for years on the internet as well as promoting their own contradictory understanding of the Faith. Exhaustive efforts to correct their muisuderstandings had failed. Then most who do cross the line as you do, nothing happens. Further there's no 'shunning' of those who have lost their membership let alone those who dissent.

 

[Jim]

Then most who do cross the line as you do, nothing happens.

What line do you think I’ve crossed? Have you seen the advice from the House of Justice, about what to do when you think a Baha’i has crossed the line?

ETA:

If you’re informing me that you think I’ve said something contrary to the Covenant, then you’ve taken the first step. Are you agreeing with me to follow the advice of the House of Justice, about a situation like this? Do you know what comes next?

 

[Dawnofhope]

What line do you think I’ve crossed? Have you seen the advice from the House of Justice, about what to do when you think a Baha’i has crossed the line?

I don't think it's wrong, or contrary to Baha'i scriptures, to promote ideas and interests contrary to those of the House of Justice. For example, I don't think it's wrong for Baha'is who disagree with the House of Justice about homosexuality or gay marriage, about excluding women from its membership, about its role and authority, about Baha'i scholarship, about the infallibility of Baha'i scriptures, or even about the claims of Baha'u'llah, to promote their ideas about that, online or offline.

Have you seen the advice from the House of Justice, about what to do when you think a Baha’i has crossed the line?

Of course.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

There is not only one Baha'i Faith, there have been several small offshoots of which one is actually called the Orthodox Baha'i Faith.

There has been attempts to make sects in Baha'i Faith, but they always failed and did not grow, because there is the center of covenant who was determined by Bahaullah, and then the Guardian of the Faith chosen by Abdulbaha in Writing, so, no room for claiming other successorship other than Those Who are already mentioned in Writings.

 

[Jim]

@adrian I'm still not sure whether or not a view that I've put forward appears to you to contradict or undermine the provisions of the Covenant, and if so, whether or not you're agreeing with me to follow the advice of the House of Justice for what do about it. If so, then I need more help to understand how you think that what I've said violates the provisions of the Covenant. Does what I've said look to you like disobeying the House of Justice, rebelling against it, or contending with it? If not, then can you think of anything else to say, to help me understand how anything I've said looks to you like contradicting or undermining the provisions of the Covenant?

To put all my cards on the table, I started this thread to see what you would do if you saw me doing something that you disagree with, enough to want to discuss it with me. I thought that watching what you do might help me know what to do if I disagree with something you do, enough to want to discuss it with you. Now I'm not sure how much I'll learn from this, because I haven't seen anything you're doing as a Covenant issue.

ETA: It does give me some new ideas though.

 

[siti]

There has been attempts to make sects in Baha'i Faith, but they always failed and did not grow, because there is the center of covenant who was determined by Bahaullah, and then the Guardian of the Faith chosen by Abdulbaha in Writing, so, no room for claiming other successorship other than Those Who are already mentioned in Writings.

But if I wanted to start a religion called, say, "the Really, Really Real Baha'i Faith" and register it as an official religion, you can't stop me doing that. Then there would be yet another Baha'i religion. And you can't stop anyone doing that. There is at least one other Baha'i religion that still exists (albeit with small numbers) and simply denying its validity (which validity is based on the same writings as you invoke to discredit it) doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

 

[InvestigateTruth]

But if I wanted to start a religion called, say, "the Really, Really Real Baha'i Faith" and register it as an official religion, you can't stop me doing that. Then there would be yet another Baha'i religion. And you can't stop anyone doing that. There is at least one other Baha'i religion that still exists (albeit with small numbers) and simply denying its validity (which validity is based on the same writings as you invoke to discredit it) doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

Sure, let's say there is real gold vs fake gold. The fake gold exist, and has the same name as the real gold, and perhaps can decieve a few, but in reality the fake gold is not the real gold no matter how much you call it real, real gold. Now, regardless if one believes in divinity of the Bahai Faith or not, there can only be one real Bahai Faith, and that is the one created based on how Bahaullah layed it out, and how Abdulbaha implemented it, and how Shoghi Effendi farther built its order and House of Justice. These are so clearly defined that in practise any fake Bahai sect would be easily known from the real one, so, virtually it will be extinguished.

 

[siti]

Sure, let's say there is real gold vs fake gold. The fake gold exist, and has the same name as the real gold, and perhaps can decieve a few, but in reality the fake gold is not the real gold no matter how much you call it real, real gold. Now, regardless if one believes in divinity of the Bahai Faith or not, there can only be one real Bahai Faith, and that is the one created based on how Bahaullah layed it out, and how Abdulbaha implemented it, and how Shoghi Effendi farther built its order and House of Justice. These are so clearly defined that in practise any fake Bahai sect would be easily known from the real one, so, virtually it will be extinguished.

Not so IT. If I have my own Baha'i faith, who are you to tell me its fake? You are dogmatically and arrogantly asserting the primacy of your faith over others...is that what Baha'u'llah recommended?

 

[InvestigateTruth]

Not so IT. If I have my own Baha'i faith, who are you to tell me its fake? You are dogmatically and arrogantly asserting the primacy of your faith over others...is that what Baha'u'llah recommended?

I didnt say, I would tell you, your own Bahai Faith is fake. But if someone wants to choose Bahai as His faith, why would they join yours and not the current Bahai Faith? How can they know which one is the real Bahai Faith, and which one is not? I would think, They look into
Writings of the Bahai Faith to know which Faith is established based on the directions of Bahaullah...