• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Baha'ullah: Non-Baha'is Are ********

mojtaba

mojtaba

Active Member
Baha'ullah:
"تالله الحق من ینکر هذا الفضل الظاهر الباهر المتعالی المنیر ینبغی له بان یسئل عن امه حاله فسوف یرجع الی اسفل الجحیم"​
"By God,Whoever denies this Apparent Exalted Luminous Grace (meaning Baha’ism), it is worthy that he asks his state from his mother and he will soon be returned to the bottom of hell."(Reference: `Abd al-Ḥamīd Ishrāq Khāwarī, Ganj-i shāygān, p. 78.)

The phrase “asks his state from his mother” is used in Persian to imply that someone is a ********.

Bahā’u’llāh doesn’t stop there. He even goes on to say who fathered some of his deniers:
"قل من کان فی قلبه بغض هذا الغلام فقد دخل الشیطان علی فراش امه کذلک نلقی علیکم القول من هذه السدرة المرتفعة المتعالی المحدود"​
"Say, whoever has the enmity of this servant (meaning Baha’ullah) in his heart, certainly Satan has entered his mother’s bed."(Reference: `Abd al-Ḥamīd Ishrāq Khāwarī, Ganj-i shāygān, p. 79)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But read this narration about Imam Sadiq[Sixth Shia infallible Imam](peace be upon him):
Imam Sadiq has a friend. One day, Imam and one of his friends were walking with each other and the servant of the friend was behind them. The friend called his servant, but he didn't reply him. So he became angry and said to his servant:"O, son of fornicatress, where are you?"
Then Imam Sadiq said: " Immaculate is Allah! do you curse his mother?! I has seen you as a pious man, but rather you do not have any piety".
Then the friend said:"May I sacrifice for you, his mother is indeed unbeliever and polytheist."
Imam said to him:"Don't you know that any people have their traditions of marriage (and when they marry according to their traditions) their doings are not adultery?! Go away from me ".
After this event, they was never seen with each other.
(Reference: Al-Kafi, vol. 2, pg. 324)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
raph

raph

Member
Thank you mojtaba,

In my opinion, what God says is true, and He has the right to make any metaphor, or even insult people, who deserve it. You surely are aware of that, having read the glorious Quran. If you want a Bahai explanation of these verses, it was discussed at bahaiforums. I have little knowledge of this language, so I cant comment on that.

Have a nice day and peace be with you.
 
mojtaba

mojtaba

Active Member
raph said:
Thank you mojtaba,

In my opinion, what God says is true, and He has the right to make any metaphor, or even insult people, who deserve it. You surely are aware of that, having read the glorious Quran. If you want a Bahai explanation of these verses, it was discussed at bahaiforums. I have little knowledge of this language, so I cant comment on that.

Have a nice day and peace be with you.
Click to expand...
Your welcome.

Dear @raph, yes, these sayings are metaphor. But in Persian culture, these sayings mean such bad meaning. I am Persian so I know the meaning of those statements.

Abdu’l-Baha says:
The second principle of Baha’ullah is the Oneness of Humanity. All of humanity are members of the human species. They are all servants of God. They have all been created by God. They are all divine children. God gives sustenance to all of them; nurtures all of them; is compassionate to all of them; why should we be compassionate? . . . The human species are all in the shadow of the Lord’s Grace. At most some are imperfect and must be perfected, [some] are ignorant and must be taught, [some] are sick and must be treated, [and some] are asleep and must be awakened.
(Reference: Abdul-Baha, Khaṭābāt (Tehran), vol. 2, pp. 145–146)

I do not know that I should believe in this saying or I should believe in that sayings of Baha'ullah.

Good luck!
 
raph

raph

Member
As far as I know, muslims await the day, when Allah comes from heaven in a cloud to judge people. We Bahais say that He already did that. It is normal that this judgement wont be positiv for everyone.

So if Bahaullah called some people, (not all non Bahais imo (what you posted contains an interpretation that is not in the original text)) Sons of the devil, He is free to do so.

Bahaullah acted with the authority of God, and we Bahais should not try to Imitate Him, because we are not God. We cant go around and judge people. Abdul Baha is the exemplar on how Bahais should behave.
 
mojtaba

mojtaba

Active Member
raph said:
As far as I know, muslims await the day, when Allah comes from heaven in a cloud to judge people.
Click to expand...
This is not true.

raph said:
We Bahais say that He already did that. It is normal that this judgement wont be positiv for everyone.

So if Bahaullah called some people, (not all non Bahais imo (what you posted contains an interpretation that is not in the original text)) Sons of the devil, He is free to do so.

Bahaullah acted with the authority of God, and we Bahais should not try to Imitate Him, because we are not God. We cant go around and judge people. Abdul Baha is the exemplar on how Bahais should behave.
Click to expand...
According to Baha'ullah saying, all Jews, Christians, Muslims, and all other people that deny him are ********.
 
mojtaba

mojtaba

Active Member
Saint Frankenstein said:
Is this supposed to be surprising? All the exclusivist monotheistic book/prophet religions view non-believers in highly negative, insulting and dehumanizing ways.
Click to expand...

Please read the second part of my saying:
mojtaba said:
But read this narration about Imam Sadiq[Sixth Shia infallible Imam](peace be upon him):
Imam Sadiq has a friend. One day, Imam and one of his friends were walking with each other and the servant of the friend was behind them. The friend called his servant, but he didn't reply him. So he became angry and said to his servant:"O, son of fornicatress, where are you?"
Then Imam Sadiq said: " Immaculate is Allah! do you curse his mother?! I has seen you as a pious man, but rather you do not have any piety".
Then the friend said:"May I sacrifice for you, his mother is indeed unbeliever and polytheist."
Imam said to him:"Don't you know that any people have their traditions of marriage (and when they marry according to their traditions) their doings are not adultery?! Go away from me ".
After this event, they was never seen with each other.
(Reference: Al-Kafi, vol. 2, pg. 324)
Click to expand...
 
raph

raph

Member
mojtaba said:
According to Baha'ullah saying, all Jews, Christians, Muslims, and all other people that deny him are ********.
Click to expand...
If you read it like that and disagree just dont become Bahai then.

But afaik Bahaullah said, that who denies this grace shall ask his mother of his status.

Whats your point? The God calls unbelievers "worst of creatures" in the Quran so even worse than ********. You can make every sentence look bad without a context. Sometimes you need to think about something and consider the whole revelation instead of only 2 sentences.

No word like Bahaism, muslim, christian, jew unbeliever, non-Bahai or b.astard there. And no context. So yeah probably it is an insult at someone, but you could misinterpret this easily.

Maybe this is a metaphor which you dont understand? Maybe by the grace is not meant the Bahai faith? Who knows. This could mean for example: "Who denies Gods grace, world peace and good deeds, may be the son of the devil."

But the translation is almost accurate except for the parentheses.
 
Last edited:
George-ananda

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
The Baha'i Faith that westerners know as a very benign modern religion isn't the whole story. The revelation of Baha’u'llah was meant to replace the revelations and holy books of past manifestations (Mohammed, Jesus, Moses, Krishna, Buddha) and become the dominant force for the new administration of the entire planet of humanity. A Baha'i World Order is to be the future of mankind. Essentially the entire world will voluntarily convert to the Baha'i Faith and the Baha'i Faith's institutions will administer the world and our current governments will disappear to be replaced by Baha'i institutions.

I think the modern western version was created to make the Baha'i Faith seem sane and benign to westerners. I like and have nothing against the Baha'i Faith in its benign form.
 
Last edited:
FearGod

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
mojtaba said:
Baha'ullah:
"تالله الحق من ینکر هذا الفضل الظاهر الباهر المتعالی المنیر ینبغی له بان یسئل عن امه حاله فسوف یرجع الی اسفل الجحیم"​
"By God,Whoever denies this Apparent Exalted Luminous Grace (meaning Baha’ism), it is worthy that he asks his state from his mother and he will soon be returned to the bottom of hell."(Reference: `Abd al-Ḥamīd Ishrāq Khāwarī, Ganj-i shāygān, p. 78.)

The phrase “asks his state from his mother” is used in Persian to imply that someone is a b-a-s-t-a-r-d.

Bahā’u’llāh doesn’t stop there. He even goes on to say who fathered some of his deniers:
"قل من کان فی قلبه بغض هذا الغلام فقد دخل الشیطان علی فراش امه کذلک نلقی علیکم القول من هذه السدرة المرتفعة المتعالی المحدود"​
"Say, whoever has the enmity of this servant (meaning Baha’ullah) in his heart, certainly Satan has entered his mother’s bed."(Reference: `Abd al-Ḥamīd Ishrāq Khāwarī, Ganj-i shāygān, p. 79)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But read this narration about Imam Sadiq[Sixth Shia infallible Imam](peace be upon him):
Imam Sadiq has a friend. One day, Imam and one of his friends were walking with each other and the servant of the friend was behind them. The friend called his servant, but he didn't reply him. So he became angry and said to his servant:"O, son of fornicatress, where are you?"
Then Imam Sadiq said: " Immaculate is Allah! do you curse his mother?! I has seen you as a pious man, but rather you do not have any piety".
Then the friend said:"May I sacrifice for you, his mother is indeed unbeliever and polytheist."
Imam said to him:"Don't you know that any people have their traditions of marriage (and when they marry according to their traditions) their doings are not adultery?! Go away from me ".
After this event, they was never seen with each other.
(Reference: Al-Kafi, vol. 2, pg. 324)
Click to expand...

I believe Bahaism was made up for a political purposes than a religion one, it was made to destroy Islam
but it failed.

Most of the honorable educational institutions don't include Bahaism as an Abrahamic faith.

One example of many,
The Family of Abraham

The term “Abrahamic religions” has gained considerable currency in both scholarly and ecumenical circles as a way of referring to Judaism, Christianity, and Islam.
http://www.hup.harvard.edu/catalog.php?isbn=9780674050839
 
raph

raph

Member
George-ananda said:
The Baha'i Faith that westerners know as a very benign modern religion isn't the whole story. The revelation of Baha’u'llah was meant to replace the revelations and holy books of past manifestations (Mohammed, Jesus, Moses, Krishna, Buddha) and become the dominant force for the new administration of the entire planet of humanity. A Baha'i World Order is to be the future of mankind. Essentially the entire world will voluntarily convert to the Baha'i Faith and the Baha'i Faith's institutions will administer the world and our current governments will disappear to be replaced by Baha'i institutions.

I think the modern western version was created to make the Baha'i Faith seem sane and benign to westerners. I like and have nothing against the Baha'i Faith in its benign form.
Click to expand...
Most westeners I know believe in what you said. Most religions were created to replace the previous one. You cant be a christian if you belief in Muhammad. Bahais believe that the world government will some day choose the Bahai faith as official world religon.

Well this is really complicated and time will tell how this will be fullfilled.

Bahaullah usually was friendly to followers of other religions. The opening post is misinterpreted from a Bahai pov. Maybe other Bahais can comment more on this, but they tend to ignore such attacks.
 
George-ananda

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
raph said:
Bahais believe that the world government will some day choose the Bahai faith as official world religon.
Click to expand...
Actually, Bahais believe their current administrative order will expand and in gradual steps replace our existing governments. The Baha'i Universal House of Justice for example will be the world's supreme institution.

raph said:
Bahaullah usually was friendly to followers of other religions. The opening post is misinterpreted from a Bahai pov. Maybe other Bahais can comment more on this, but they tend to ignore such attacks.
Click to expand...
Yes, I don't think it is appropriate to cast Bahaullah in such a bad light as the OP intended. He wrote a lot of material and the style of language was often very verbose and dramatic. Perhaps a remnant of that era.
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
mojtaba said:
Baha'ullah:
"تالله الحق من ینکر هذا الفضل الظاهر الباهر المتعالی المنیر ینبغی له بان یسئل عن امه حاله فسوف یرجع الی اسفل الجحیم"​
"By God,Whoever denies this Apparent Exalted Luminous Grace (meaning Baha’ism), it is worthy that he asks his state from his mother and he will soon be returned to the bottom of hell."(Reference: `Abd al-Ḥamīd Ishrāq Khāwarī, Ganj-i shāygān, p. 78.)

The phrase “asks his state from his mother” is used in Persian to imply that someone is a b-a-s-t-a-r-d.

Bahā’u’llāh doesn’t stop there. He even goes on to say who fathered some of his deniers:
"قل من کان فی قلبه بغض هذا الغلام فقد دخل الشیطان علی فراش امه کذلک نلقی علیکم القول من هذه السدرة المرتفعة المتعالی المحدود"​
"Say, whoever has the enmity of this servant (meaning Baha’ullah) in his heart, certainly Satan has entered his mother’s bed."(Reference: `Abd al-Ḥamīd Ishrāq Khāwarī, Ganj-i shāygān, p. 79)
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
But read this narration about Imam Sadiq[Sixth Shia infallible Imam](peace be upon him):
Imam Sadiq has a friend. One day, Imam and one of his friends were walking with each other and the servant of the friend was behind them. The friend called his servant, but he didn't reply him. So he became angry and said to his servant:"O, son of fornicatress, where are you?"
Then Imam Sadiq said: " Immaculate is Allah! do you curse his mother?! I has seen you as a pious man, but rather you do not have any piety".
Then the friend said:"May I sacrifice for you, his mother is indeed unbeliever and polytheist."
Imam said to him:"Don't you know that any people have their traditions of marriage (and when they marry according to their traditions) their doings are not adultery?! Go away from me ".
After this event, they was never seen with each other.
(Reference: Al-Kafi, vol. 2, pg. 324)
Click to expand...

I believe it is a stretch to derive that meaning.

I believe one could imply that but it is not what the author is saying in context.

I believe He does come down pretty hard on those trying to kill him but I don't believe he is being literal about the bedding of the mother. I suppose it is like saying your mother wears army boots. (I actually knew a mother who did and her kids were proud of her)
 
Muffled

Muffled

Jesus in me
raph said:
Thank you mojtaba,

In my opinion, what God says is true, and He has the right to make any metaphor, or even insult people, who deserve it. You surely are aware of that, having read the glorious Quran. If you want a Bahai explanation of these verses, it was discussed at bahaiforums. I have little knowledge of this language, so I cant comment on that.

Have a nice day and peace be with you.
Click to expand...

I believe one would have to believe either that he was God or that he ws inspired by God but I don't believe there is sufficient proof of either and enough prroof to say he isn't and wasn't. However the wisdom he employs is worth listening to with a grain of salt.
 
mojtaba

mojtaba

Active Member
Muffled said:
I believe it is a stretch to derive that meaning.

I believe one could imply that but it is not what the author is saying in context.

I believe He does come down pretty hard on those trying to kill him but I don't believe he is being literal about the bedding of the mother. I suppose it is like saying your mother wears army boots. (I actually knew a mother who did and her kids were proud of her)
Click to expand...
Baha'ullah was Persian and in Persian culture, these sayings mean such bad meaning. I am Persian so I know the meaning of those statements.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Top