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Baha'ullah: Non-Baha'is Are ********

George-ananda

Advaita Vedanta, Theosophy, Spiritualism
Premium Member
Urgh. Why did I join the Baha'is again... Nobody told me this was their plan.
Are you being serious with me? I was a Baha'i at one time too. Yes, there are some things they wisely choose not to address when looking for a western modern audience.

But then again, I still kind of like them.
 

raph

Member
And I also know Baha'is who have a normal life in Iran. But rather, when some of them convert to Islam, they are put under presure from the leaders of Bahai party and their family leave them and put them under financial and emotional pressure.
Some questions:
1-Where is Beytul Adl(Central Building of Baha'is)?
2-Why do American only condemn the coduct of Iran's government with Baha'is and do not condemn the killing of numerous Muslims in Israel, Nigeria, Yemen, etc.???
3-Why should Iran's government have a violent conduct with Baha'is only because of their religion which has no benefit for the country, but rather has many disadvantages???
And other questions.


No friend. Beloved! Bab had a violent teachings against Shias and other people of discord.

See this saying about Bab,
Abdul-Baha says:
در يوم ظهور حضرت اعلی منطوق بيان ضرب اعناق و حرق كتب و اوراق و هدم بقاع و قتل عام الّا من آمن و صدّق بود​
"In the day of the appearance of Hadhrat A`la [meaning the Bab], the utterance of Bayan[i.e., the book of Bab] was to behead, burn the books, destroy the monuments, and massacre [everyone] but those who believed [in the Bab’s religion] and verified it.”
(Source: Abdul Baha, Makatib, vol. 2, p. 266)
You can download this book from here (Go page 266(ص ۲۶۶)).

And what happens in Iran, when a muslim becomes Bahai? Some of my wifes family hate my wife for being Bahai and dont talk to her. The rest is really ashamed, and wants her to keep silent about it. It is a Bahai law to respect someones decision to leave the Faith, maybe not all Bahais are perfect..

1. The UHJ is in Haifa, Israel (Almost the last location where Bahaullah was banished by muslims). When Bahaullah told His followers to make the center of the faith there, Israel didnt exist. So if He had anything to do with Israel, He must have been a prophet, who knew that Israel will be there in the future.

Since when do Bahais spy for Israel? Probably not since 1863..

No, in that time, Bahais were suspected to be spies for Russia or Great Britain.

2. I am not american. But they probably condemn many more of Irans dictators actions. They also condemn ISIS and Ghadafi etc.

3. The Bahai faith was a very strong movement from the beginning. There is a benefit for the leaders of Iran if they stop the Bahai faith. They may continue the islamic regime. Why do they imprison people who talk bad things about the leaders? For the same reason. Dictatorship works like that. You have to eliminate or scare the enemies within, or you will lose your power.

Yes the Bab preached Holy war. Many muslims expect exactly that of the Mahdi.
 
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FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
Nothing new - Christians say the exact same. You're just trying to play the 'preferentially targeted because we own the Truth' card.

Disagreeing with is different than hating, the disbelievers hate Islam. that what i used to notice,
they don't hate Buddhism, Hinduisim ..etc as they do with Islam.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
And what happens in Iran, when a muslim becomes Bahai? Some of my wifes family hate my wife for being Bahai and dont talk to her. The rest is really ashamed, and wants her to keep silent about it. It is a Bahai law to respect someones decision to leave the Faith, maybe not all Bahais are perfect..

1. The UHJ is in Haifa, Israel (Almost the last location where Bahaullah was banished by muslims). When Bahaullah told His followers to make the center of the faith there, Israel didnt exist. So if He had anything to do with Israel, He must have been a prophet, who knew that Israel will be there in the future.

Since when do Bahais spy for Israel? Probably not since 1863..

No, in that time, Bahais were suspected to be spies for Russia or Great Britain.

2. I am not american. But they probably condemn many more of Irans dictators actions. They also condemn ISIS and Ghadafi etc.

3. The Bahai faith was a very strong movement from the beginning. There is a benefit for the leaders of Iran if they stop the Bahai faith. They may continue the islamic regime. Why do they imprison people who talk bad things about the leaders? For the same reason. Dictatorship works like that. You have to eliminate or scare the enemies within, or you will lose your power.

Yes the Bab preached Holy war. Many muslims expect exactly that of the Mahdi.

No, he meant that the Baha'is are welcomed by the Zionists and financed by some western countries.
I ain't surprised, a lot of money are wasted for bombs and fire, that's how our crazy world is.
 
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Flankerl

Well-Known Member
No Countries don't hate anyone.
People may hate people. But they aren't the country. They are the population.

If the people inside a house hate people inside another house it doesn't mean that the House itself hates anyone. Its just a house.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
No Countries don't hate anyone.
People may hate people. But they aren't the country. They are the population.

If the people inside a house hate people inside another house it doesn't mean that the House itself hates anyone. Its just a house.

Are you implying that the Jews hate Iran(the Iranians) but not the Baha'i's?
 

mojtaba

Active Member
And what happens in Iran, when a muslim becomes Bahai? Some of my wifes family hate my wife for being Bahai and dont talk to her. The rest is really ashamed, and wants her to keep silent about it. It is a Bahai law to respect someones decision to leave the Faith, maybe not all Bahais are perfect..
Their behavior is not Islamic.
According to a Hadith from Imam Sadiq( sixth Imam ), a person who becomes an apostate as a result of being presented with fallacies and misguidedly accepting them (in private and without public exhibition), will be spared from punishment. In addition, should that individual return to Islam, the good deeds they performed prior to their apostasy will be preserved.
(Source: Wasa’elul-Shia, vol. 16, pp. 104-105, Hadith 21099)

But Baha'ic order for apostates:
Shughi(ولی امر الله، Owner of the order of God) has ordered to Baha'is:
راجع باحبائیکه بواسطه غفلت و نادانی از تشکیلات اداری منفصل شوند سوال نموده بودید که آیا بمحافل عمومی دعوت شوند یا خیر؟ فرمودند: دعوت آنان جایز نه، و نسبت به کسانی که از جامعه امر منفصل شده‌اند آیا سلام و کلام با آنها جائزست یا نه؟ فرمودند اگر چنانچه انفصال روحانی است تکلم بهیچوجه جائز نه​
You have asked about lovers(i.e., Baha'is) who stay away from administrative organizations because of neglecting and ignorance, that were they invited to public ceremonies? He(i.e., ولی امر الله، Owner of the order of God) has said:' Inviting them is not lawful ', and (you have asked about ) who have leaved Jame-'eye Amr(i.e., Baha'ism) that, is greeting and talking with them lawful? He(i.e., ولی امر الله، Owner of the order of God) has said:' If leaving is spirituality, talking with them is never lawful '
(Source: Toghi'ate Mobarake, by Sughi, pg. 94, 95)
1. The UHJ is in Haifa, Israel (Almost the last location where Bahaullah was banished by muslims). When Bahaullah told His followers to make the center of the faith there, Israel didnt exist. So if He had anything to do with Israel, He must have been a prophet, who knew that Israel will be there in the future.

Since when do Bahais spy for Israel? Probably not since 1863..

No, in that time, Bahais were suspected to be spies for Russia or Great Britain.
Ayatullah Khomeini:
However, we tell you that the Tudeh party not because it was the Tudeh Party and the Bahais not because of their belonging to the outlawed Bahai sect were prosecuted by our prosecutors and sentenced to imprisonment. They had problems; the Tudeh party came forward and confessed all their activities and they have a record.The Bahais are not a faith, they are a party, a party that in the past was supported by the British and are at present being supported by the Americans —they too are spies just like them. If they were not spies, then well, there are many other people that have ideological deviations; they are communists, they are other things but our prosecutors do not arrest and imprison them because they are Communists or have ideological deviations.
(Source: Sahifeh-ye imam Khomeini Volume 17, page 427)

2. I am not american. But they probably condemn many more of Irans dictators actions. They also condemn ISIS and Ghadafi etc.
They should condemn their super dictators actions.
Yes, they condemn ISIS, but also condemn Russia fighting against ISIS!
They also condemn Bashshar Asad, while he is fighting with ISIS.
But they donot condemn Saudi regime that helps ISIS and kills numerous Yemeni Shia Muslims. Or they donot condemn killing of numerous Shia Muslims in Nigeria.

They condemn Iran, because Baha'is benefit them. But they donot condemn others, because they do not benefit America government.

Surprisingly, the ff saying of Ayatullah Khomeini is exactly your answer:

I do not know whether you heard the speech of the President of the United States that was broadcast over the radio in which he asked the entire world to assist him in getting the release of these Bahais living in Iran. He said that they were innocent and were not spies and that they do not engage in any activity other than religious ones and it is for this reason of engaging in religious activities has condemned of them to death. He pleaded with the entire world that The Bahai faith was a very strong movement from the beginning. There is a benefit for the leaders of Iran if they stop the Bahai faith. They may continue the Islamic regime. Why do they imprison people who talk bad things about the leaders? For the same reason. Dictatorship works like that. You have to eliminate or scare the enemies within, or you will lose your power.they were not spies and are a people that do not interfere in anything and he was pleading on humanitarian grounds. Had he not mentioned these subjects some naïve minds would think that well, they too are a people that although they have corrupt beliefs but they are engaged in their own religious worship; this too was not their intention. However, after Mr. Reagen said that they were only engaging in religious ceremonies and nothing else, could we still believe? On the one side when they arrest the Tudeh Party officials, the Soviet Union protests that they are an innocent group that are also in agreement with the Islamic Republic; that they support it; that they backed the Islamic Republic like all others and are even now supporting it whereas now the government of Iran has come and unnecessarily arrested and imprisoned them. On the other side, Mr. Reagen1 is now saying that these Bahais are a wretched and peaceful people busy with their own worship ceremonies and are performing their own religious rituals and Iran is opposed to them for this very reason that their beliefs are contrary to ours. If they were not spies, you would not have voiced concern. Because they are a bunch that are working in your favor otherwise we know you; we know America would not all of a sudden clamor for 22 Bahai individuals who according to him have been arrested in Iran and that it is for humanitarian concerns that he is voicing his protest and is pleading with the entire world to come to their rescue. The people know you; you that persuaded Iraq to do unto our country what the Moguls had not done; and likewise unto their own country.
(Sahifeh-ye imam Khomeini, Volume 17, pg. 425-426)
Yes the Bab preached Holy war. Many muslims expect exactly that of the Mahdi.
No.
Our Mahdi is not like Bab who the utterance of his book was to behead, burn the books, destroy the monuments, and massacre [everyone] but those who believed [in the Bab’s religion] and verified it.
Bab claimed that he is Mahdi. But true Mahdi is from the progeny of Muhammad,his name is like the name of Prophet Muhammad, his father's name is Hasan, etc., things that lair Bab did not have only one of them.
 
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Flankerl

Well-Known Member
Are you implying that the Jews hate Iran(the Iranians) but not the Baha'i's?

It's like talking to a wall.

Consider the following: Some Jews may actually hate Iran. But at the same time they might not hate Iranians.

I know, crazy. Blows your mind.
 

FearGod

Freedom Of Mind
It's like talking to a wall.

Consider the following: Some Jews may actually hate Iran. But at the same time they might not hate Iranians.

I know, crazy. Blows your mind.

Yes understood, the same as Iranians hate Israel but not the Jews.
 

Flankerl

Well-Known Member
Except of course when Iran bombed the Jews in Buenos Aires which had nothing to do with Israel.


Oups! Well they were just Jews so who cares!
 

raph

Member
But Baha'ic order for apostates:
Shughi(ولی امر الله، Owner of the order of God) has ordered to Baha'is:
راجع باحبائیکه بواسطه غفلت و نادانی از تشکیلات اداری منفصل شوند سوال نموده بودید که آیا بمحافل عمومی دعوت شوند یا خیر؟ فرمودند: دعوت آنان جایز نه، و نسبت به کسانی که از جامعه امر منفصل شده‌اند آیا سلام و کلام با آنها جائزست یا نه؟ فرمودند اگر چنانچه انفصال روحانی است تکلم بهیچوجه جائز نه​
You have asked about lovers(i.e., Baha'is) who stay away from administrative organizations because of neglecting and ignorance, that were they invited to public ceremonies? He(i.e., ولی امر الله، Owner of the order of God) has said:' Inviting them is not lawful ', and (you have asked about ) who have leaved Jame-'eye Amr(i.e., Baha'ism) that, is greeting and talking with them lawful? He(i.e., ولی امر الله، Owner of the order of God) has said:' If leaving is spirituality, talking with them is never lawful '

I dont know what you are talking about. Shoghi Effendi did clearly say that Bahai apostates are simply treated like other non Bahais.

People who have withdrawn from the Cause because they no longer feel that they can support its Teachings and Institutions sincerely, are not Covenant-breakers -- they are non-Bahá'ís and should just be treated as such.

- Shoghi Effendi

It is permitted that the peoples and kindreds of the world associate with one another with joy and radiance. O people! Consort with the followers of all religions in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship. Thus hath the day-star of His sanction and authority shone forth above the horizon of the decree of God, the Lord of the worlds.

- Bahaullah

Sry I cant read persian but you are misunderstanding something.
 

Shia Islam

Quran and Ahlul-Bayt a.s.
Premium Member
Thank you mojtaba,

In my opinion, what God says is true, and He has the right to make any metaphor, or even insult people, who deserve it. You surely are aware of that, having read the glorious Quran. If you want a Bahai explanation of these verses, it was discussed at bahaiforums. I have little knowledge of this language, so I cant comment on that.

Have a nice day and peace be with you.

I am a native Arabic speaker, who knew Arabic deeply and have studied Islamic resources for a long time...

I know the background of the language used...

It is not a metaphor.
 

mojtaba

Active Member
I dont know what you are talking about. Shoghi Effendi did clearly say that Bahai apostates are simply treated like other non Bahais.

People who have withdrawn from the Cause because they no longer feel that they can support its Teachings and Institutions sincerely, are not Covenant-breakers -- they are non-Bahá'ís and should just be treated as such.

- Shoghi Effendi
Dear @raph, when I read Baha'i books, I see much discrepancy in them.

Here is a better translation:
راجع باحبائیکه بواسطه غفلت و نادانی از تشکیلات اداری منفصل شوند سوال نموده بودید که آیا بمحافل عمومی دعوت شوند یا خیر؟ فرمودند: دعوت آنان جایز نه، و نسبت به کسانی که از جامعه امر منفصل شده‌اند آیا سلام و کلام با آنها جایز است یا نه؟ فرمودند اگر چنانچه انفصال روحانی است تکلم بهیچوجه جایز نه​
(Source: توقیعات مبارکه ,Toghi'ate Mobarake(i.e., Holy Letters ), by شوقی افندی, Shoghi Effendi, pg. 94, 95)

A question was asked about the friends that, as a result of their ignorance and neglect, had been excluded from administrative affairs about whether they should be invited to public assemblies or not? He (Shoghi) said, “inviting them is not permitted.” And it was asked about those that had been excluded from the community, whether greeting and speaking with them was permitted? He replied, “if they have been spiritually excommunicated, speaking with them is not permitted in any way.”

Also see:
در موضوع صادق٬ فرزند اقا محمد جواد اشچي فرمودند: بنویس این شخص بد اخلاق و پست فطرت اخیراً مخالف دستور این عبد مسافرت به فلسطین نموده و وارد ارض اقدس گشته تلغرافیا راجع به طرد و اخراج او از جامعه به محفل مخابره گردید بوالدش صریحا اظهار و انذار نمایند مخابره با او بهیچ وجه من الوجوه جایز نه٬ تمرد و مخالفت نتایجش وخیم است​
(Source: Toghi'ate Mobarake, by Shoghi Effendi, pg. 4142.)
Regarding the issue of Sadiq, the son of Aqa Muhammad Javad Ashchi, he(Shoghi) ordered to write that “this ill-mannered and innately lowly person recently traveled to Palestine against the orders of this servant and entered the Holy Land. A telegraph regarding his excommunication and his banishment from the [Baha’i] community has been sent to that assembly. Clearly tell and warn his father that communication with him is not permitted by any means and disobeying and opposing [this order] will have severe results.

It is permitted that the peoples and kindreds of the world associate with one another with joy and radiance. O people! Consort with the followers of all religions in a spirit of friendliness and fellowship. Thus hath the day-star of His sanction and authority shone forth above the horizon of the decree of God, the Lord of the worlds.

- Bahaullah
And ff saying is also from Baha'ullah:

"لا تعاشروا مع الذين هم کفروا بالله و آياته ثم اجتنبوا عن مثل هولاء"​
(Source: Ma'idiy-i Asemani, by Abd al-Hamid Ishraq-e Khawari, vol. 8, pg. 39)
2.“Do not socialize with those who deny God and His Signs(e.g., Baha'ullah) and keep away from their kind,”
 
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Flankerl

Well-Known Member
That was Iran and not the Iranians.

You are officially the first Muslim ever to accept that it was Iran doing it and not the Jews bombing themselves for fun and to incriminate the poor Muslims.

Makes you quite the Reformer.
 
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