Bah'iah Faith: Question (continued)

[mohamedhassan]

This is a continuation of the thread from the Bah'iah section. Another question is, if the Bahallah came in the 19th century what interpretaion of the quran did you use from the time between the death of the prophet (saw) and the time of bahallah?
[P.S: I may take time to replay b/c of exams in these comming weeks so i apologize before hand]

 

[kiwimac]

The Baha'i faith came out of 'Twelver' Shi'a islam. So it would have been whatever version of the Qur'an was popular in Iran / Persia in the late 18th-20th centuries.

 

[Popeyesays]

This is a continuation of the thread from the Bah'iah section. Another question is, if the Bahallah came in the 19th century what interpretaion of the quran did you use from the time between the death of the prophet (saw) and the time of bahallah?
[P.S: I may take time to replay b/c of exams in these comming weeks so i apologize before hand]

I think the paper by Fazel and Fananapazir will answe3r most of your questions in this regard. You may not agree with the conclusions, but you can see the reasoning:
http://bahai-library.com/index.php5?file=fananapazir_fazel_finality_islam
--------------------------------------Excerpt---------------------------------------
"Islamic belief in finality also rests on the interpretation of a number of verses in the Qur'án that indicate that Islam is perfect and complete:

the true religion with God is Islam. (3:19)

whoso desires another religion than Islam, it shall not be accepted of him. (3:85)

This day have I perfected your religion for you, and have filled up the measure of my favours upon you; and it is my pleasure that Islam be your religion. (5:4)[6]

He it is who sent His Apostle with the Guidance and a religion of the truth, that He may make it victorious over every other religion. (9:33)[7]​

The conjunction of these two themes, i.e. Muhammad as the last Prophet and Islam as the final religion, has resulted in crystallizing an attitude of finality and exclusivism, which, in turn, reflects a common propensity of most religious traditions. This article endeavours to provide the basis of a new framework reconciling the Bahá'í belief that manifestations of God have appeared, in the persons of the Báb and Bahá'u'lláh, and will continue to appear "till `the end that hath no end'"[8] with the time-honoured Islamic doctrines of khatm al-nubuwwa (finality of prophethood), and Islam as the final divinely revealed religion. To put the Bahá'í interpretation of this idea in its proper perspective, a brief explanation of this Faith's teachings in regard to Muhammad and the Qur'án is necessary."
-------------------------END Excerpt-------------------------------

Regards,
Scott

 

[mohamedhassan]

sorry i'm confused. Are u saing that the Bab and Bahullah are actually god on earth, thats kind of what it sounded like when you say "manifestations of god". if they weren't then were they prophets or messengers or what exactly

 

[mohamedhassan]

oh and also what mircales did the Bab and Bahullah present. I ask this because it is well known that every prophet (if the Bab and Bahullah were prophets) brings a unmimicable miracle

 

[Popeyesays]

sorry i'm confused. Are u saing that the Bab and Bahullah are actually god on earth, thats kind of what it sounded like when you say "manifestations of god". if they weren't then were they prophets or messengers or what exactly

God is God, Unknowable in His Essence. No man can contain God. "Manifestation" does not mean "God descended" like some attribute to Christ. "Divine Messenger", "Apostle of God", are probably more comfortable terms.

"Unto this bear witness They Who are the Dawning-Places of Revelation and the Manifestations of the Cause of thy Lord, the Most Merciful, Who have sacrificed Their souls and all that They possessed in His straight Path."
(Baha'u'llah, Tablets of Baha'u'llah, p. 205)

The Apostles of God are the Dawning Places of Revelation because it is through Them that mankind learns the Message of God. They are the Manifestations of the Cause of God, not God Himself. They are as close to 'God' as man can perceive thought they are entirely separate from God in His Essence. They are Men, not God, but men chosen of God for the explanation of His Cause.

Regards,
Scott

 

[Popeyesays]

We don't make a big thing of miracles, because miracles prove nothing to those who do not witness them. There are miraculous healings, being in two places at once and such things associated with the Bab and Baha`u'llah; but by themselves miracles prove nothing.

Regards,
Scott

 

[mohamedhassan]

Well what exactly do u use as proof of the prophethood of the Bab and Bahullah?

 

[Popeyesays]

Well what exactly do u use as proof of the prophethood of the Bab and Bahullah?

The best 'proof' of a Prophet is His Own Self--His words, actions, bearing, behavior.

What "proof" did Muhammad claim?

"O affectionate seeker! Shouldst thou soar in the holy realm of the spirit, thou wouldst recognize God manifest and exalted above all things, in such wise that thine eyes would behold none else but Him. "God was alone; there was none else besides Him." So lofty is this station that no testimony can bear it witness, neither evidence do justice to its truth. Wert thou to explore the sacred domain of truth, thou wilt find that all things are known only by the light of His recognition, that He hath ever been, and will continue for ever to be, known through Himself. And if thou dwellest in the land of testimony, content thyself with that which He, Himself, hath revealed: "Is it not enough for them that We have sent down unto Thee the Book?"[1] This is the testimony which He, Himself, hath ordained; greater proof than this 92 there is none, nor ever will be: "This proof is His Word; His own Self, the testimony of His truth."
[1 Qur'án 29:51 ]"
(Baha'u'llah, The Kitab-i-Iqan, p. 91)

Italics are mine.

Regards,
Scott

 

[maro]

The best 'proof' of a Prophet is His Own Self--His words, actions, bearing, behavior.

What "proof" did Muhammad claim?

i think you have asked that question before , and we have already answered before

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40602&page=4&highlight=infallible


i noticed that when the Bahai talk about Bahulla , they usually use the word (claim) , why is that ?
and is it the same reason , you use it , with prophet Muhammed (PBUH) ?

 

[Popeyesays]

i think you have asked that question before , and we have already answered before

http://www.religiousforums.com/forum/showthread.php?t=40602&page=4&highlight=infallible


i noticed that when the Bahai talk about Bahulla , they usually use the word (claim) , why is that ?
and is it the same reason , you use it , with prophet Muhammed (PBUH) ?

Maro I answered on that thread.

Regards,
Scott

 

[mohamedhassan]

I really don't see how any of this proves that there is a prophet after mohammad (saw). I mean from how I see it you've completely ignored the hadeeth of the prophet(saw) and chose to misinterpret some ayahs of the quran (which by the way isn't hard when you have a preconcived notion beforehand) the religion of Allah was clear and is clear to this day with no need of any addition or subtraction and definatly not a prophet.
The prophet (saw) said that there will be many people who claim prophethood after he dies, each trying to mislead the people to think that they are right, when there is no more prophet or messenger after him! If you believe in Muhammad (saw) then his hadeeth is essential to undersstanding the relgion, so i suggest that you look into that [not the shia books because its well-known that they have many fabricated hadeeth, look into books like shiah muslim, sahih buhakri, sunan abu dawud]and you'll see that there is no prophet/messenger after muhammad(saw) and there is no proof of there going to be any when there is GREAT PROOF that the is NONE after him

Hope this helps

 

[Popeyesays]

I really don't see how any of this proves that there is a prophet after mohammad (saw). I mean from how I see it you've completely ignored the hadeeth of the prophet(saw) and chose to misinterpret some ayahs of the quran (which by the way isn't hard when you have a preconcived notion beforehand) the religion of Allah was clear and is clear to this day with no need of any addition or subtraction and definatly not a prophet.
The prophet (saw) said that there will be many people who claim prophethood after he dies, each trying to mislead the people to think that they are right, when there is no more prophet or messenger after him! If you believe in Muhammad (saw) then his hadeeth is essential to undersstanding the relgion, so i suggest that you look into that [not the shia books because its well-known that they have many fabricated hadeeth, look into books like shiah muslim, sahih buhakri, sunan abu dawud]and you'll see that there is no prophet/messenger after muhammad(saw) and there is no proof of there going to be any when there is GREAT PROOF that the is NONE after him

Hope this helps

""And we gave Moses the Book, and after him sent succeeding Messengers: and We gave Jesus... the clear signs... and whensoever there came to you a Messenger with that your souls had not desire for, did you become arrogant, and some cry lies to, and some slay." - Muhammad- Quran 2 (The Cow)


"By those sent forth one after the other... Verily that which ye are promised is about to happen. So when the stars are blotted out, And when the sky is rent asunder... when the Messengers have a time set: For what Day is this being arranged? For the Day of Severance."- Muhammad- Quran 77
"The Imam who will create a world state will make the ruling nations pay for their crimes against society. He will bring succor to humanity... He will teach you simple living and high thinking. He will make you understand that virtue is a state of character which is always a mean between the two extremes, and which is based upon equity and justice. He will revive the teaching of the Holy Qur'an and the traditions of the Holy Prophet after the world has ignored them as dead letters.... He will protect and defend himself with resources of science and supreme knowledge. His control over these resources will be complete. He will know how supreme they are and how carefully they will have to be used. His mind will be free from desires of bringing harm and injury to humanity. Such a knowledge to him will be like the property which was wrongly possessed by others and for which he was waiting for the permission to repossess and use. He, in the beginning, will be like a poor stranger unknown and uncared for, and Islam then will be in the hopeless and helpless plight of an exhausted camel who has laid down its head and is wagging its tail. With such a start he will establish an empire of God in this world. He will be the final demonstration and proof of God's merciful wish to acquaint man with the right ways of life." - Islam (Shiite)- Nahjul Balagha, Khutba 141, 187

Here's a start, want more?

 

[BruceDLimber]

Greetings!

We ignore most of the hadith for a very good reason: even Muslims themselves can't agree on which ones are and aren't legitimate!

To Baha'is, they have the same status as what we call "pilgrims' notes": IOW, none whatever!

The only exceptions to this are those few hadith specifically quoted by our Central Figures in the Baha'i scriptures.

Simple as that.

And BTW, the correct spelling is Baha'i. And the title of our Founder is Baha'u'llah. ("Baha" means "glory," and the suffix forms the adjective, "of Glory.") The apostrophes are important, too, because they are the transliteration of a (silent) letter that indicates a glottal stop and changes the pronunciation.

Peace,

Bruce