Ban the Bible and the Qur'an?

[Kirran]

"But obviously people who aren't Christian still want many things that are, as you say here, to do with God. For example, relationships and experiences of the world etc. Many of them want God, as well, as go towards Him via other traditions. So it's not like they reject all of that so 'OK, cart them off to hell' - so why do they go to hell?"
This is a great question. I think what you are saying here,(correct me if I'm wrong) is that people (other than Christians) want to believe in a higher power but have different traditions and these different traditions are a different way to reach God right? And because they want to reach God they have their own why of doing it so way should they go to hell. Is that pretty close?

That was one of my questions, yes.

One thing to remember is that there is a very vicious battle going on in the spiritual realm for your soul. Stan hates God and he hates Gods creation which is you and me. Stan has had a lot of time to since Adam and Eve up to today. He is called the angel of light, mean he comes looking very attractive. He is also called the father of lies and is in the business of deceiving people especially those who are looking for spiritual truth. He dosent want you to follow spiritual truth because that would mean you would find salvation in Jesus Christ, who said

"I am the Way the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father (or heaven) except through me." Thats as straight as it gets!

No other religion or god(s) of any other religion states that only through them are you able to enter heaven, only Jesus Christ says that. Let that sink in a bit. There is only one true living God. How do we know this? As I mentioned before, the first 3 of the Ten Commandments are: 1) I am the LORD thy God. 2) Thou shalt have no other gods before me. and 3) No graven images or likenesses. I dont know how much clearer He can be. And agian, I dont know of any other god(s) lay claim to those statements, none of them!

This was a very strange statement to me.

Firstly, Christianity is definitely not the only religion to claim it is the only way to heaven. There are sects doing this in plenty of religions.

Secondly, so what if it was the only one making the exclusivist statement, why would that be of any import?

Also, the idea of one god making this claim and another not doesn't make sense to me personally, as I believe in only one God.

So now that we have established Who God is, doesnt if follow that we as His creation would need to follow His instructions on how to get to heaven? So all other beliefs contrary to what He requires will not work, they are futile in their attempts to reach God. Thats another reason why missionaries have brought the Gospel of this truth in salvation through Jesus Christ all over the world. You can accept it or reject it. If you reject it, you have fallen short of reaching heaven.

So, when you say,"Why, for example, am I bound for hell?" if you choose to ignore what God requires to get into heaven, you are bound for hell. I didnt make up the rules, He did.
Also, why forever? Surely having realised this ain't a good place to be, a kind God would take them out after they'd learned their lesson?
God is eternal. He created all of us to be eternal. There was nothing to keep this from continuing until Satan entered, cause Eve and then Adam to sin against what God told them not to do. Because of sin, Cain killed his brother Abel, the first murder. From that time util present, we have seen sinful people do unspeakable and horrific things to other human beings and to animals. When we die, the eternal part of us (our soul) continues to live and be very conscious of our surroundings. God has also promised us a new body, a heavenly body that will never be subjected to all we experience as human beings in a fallen world. For the Christian (followers of Jesus Christ) we are promised by God of a wonderful future and eternity with Him where there will be no more disease, pain, or sorrow. As far as people learning their lessons, we should have plenty of experience right here on earth
in our own lives of learning lessons of disobedience right? He is telling you and me through His Word (the bible) up front what we need to do to avoid such a horrible place as hell. It would seem to me that because none of us knows when we will die it would be important to call upon the Lord and accept His free gift of Salvation ASAP! Hope this helps.

He created Satan so as to bring about such a state of affairs, presumably?

Honestly, this seems such a tyrannical view of God. I would be rather inclined to reject his threat-laden demands were this really how I saw him, on grounds of basic morality and decency.

In my view, God is Love in the depths of His nature, and all are totally in His care. I don't believe He will give us a few years as a chance to accept or reject some truth claims and then punish us in eternal hellfire if we find no reason to accept them. This is not the action of a loving and merciful God, such as I believe in. It is frankly monstrous.

 

[McBell]

when your arguing against Fascism, arguing that "it can't happen" and "it won't work" is the weakest possible argument you can make.

I'm not sure why I would need to provide any evidence to support that view if only to show how utterly misplaced your confidence in human beings is. Given that this sort of complacency was what let people sit back and watch it happen, Shouldn't that be obvious?

Well, since you have been unable to present the data I originally requested I shall let you bee.

 

[Rapture Era]

That was one of my questions, yes.



This was a very strange statement to me.

Firstly, Christianity is definitely not the only religion to claim it is the only way to heaven. There are sects doing this in plenty of religions.

Secondly, so what if it was the only one making the exclusivist statement, why would that be of any import?

Also, the idea of one god making this claim and another not doesn't make sense to me personally, as I believe in only one God.



He created Satan so as to bring about such a state of affairs, presumably?

Honestly, this seems such a tyrannical view of God. I would be rather inclined to reject his threat-laden demands were this really how I saw him, on grounds of basic morality and decency.

In my view, God is Love in the depths of His nature, and all are totally in His care. I don't believe He will give us a few years as a chance to accept or reject some truth claims and then punish us in eternal hellfire if we find no reason to accept them. This is not the action of a loving and merciful God, such as I believe in. It is frankly monstrous.

You dont think what God did to sacrifice His only son so that you and me could spend eternity in heaven with Him wasnt the ultimate act of love for you? He says to us that He loved us so much He sent His son Jesus to be a pure unsinful sacrifice that is required to pay our debt for sin so that we could spend eternity with Him in heaven sounds to me like a very loving God! He didnt have to do that, but He did because of His perfect love for you! And all you have to do is accept that gift He freely offers you? You think Hes a monster? Wow! He doesnt owe you or me anything, we owe Him! And yet, while we are still sinners, Jesus die for us! That is love beyond my comprehension! But it seems not many people are thankful for what He endured on that cross for you and me. I'm asking this to those who believe in any other god or gods, what has your god done for you? How has he or she stepped into history and changed the world like Jesus did, performing all the miracles he did, and raising Himself from the dead just as He said He would? The bottom line is this, He offers you and me through His sacrifice a way to heaven. Its not a threat, its a warning. When you see a warning label on an electrical component not to touch it or you will die, do you look at that as a threat? Of course not! Same thing here, He loves you enough to warn you ahead of time. Do you heed the warning or not? I dont know that up to you.

 

[Kirran]

You dont think what God did to sacrifice His only son so that you and me could spend eternity in heaven with Him wasnt the ultimate act of love for you? He says to us that He loved us so much He sent His son Jesus to be a pure unsinful sacrifice that is required to pay our debt for sin so that we could spend eternity with Him in heaven sounds to me like a very loving God! He didnt have to do that, but He did because of His perfect love for you! And all you have to do is accept that gift He freely offers you? You think Hes a monster? Wow! He doesnt owe you or me anything, we owe Him! And yet, while we are still sinners, Jesus die for us! That is love beyond my comprehension! But it seems not many people are thankful for what He endured on that cross for you and me. I'm asking this to those who believe in any other god or gods, what has your god done for you? How has he or she stepped into history and changed the world like Jesus did, performing all the miracles he did, and raising Himself from the dead just as He said He would? The bottom line is this, He offers you and me through His sacrifice a way to heaven. Its not a threat, its a warning. When you see a warning label on an electrical component not to touch it or you will die, do you look at that as a threat? Of course not! Same thing here, He loves you enough to warn you ahead of time. Do you heed the warning or not? I dont know that up to you.

No, I think that considering your idea of God is that he set things such that it was possible for me to go to a place of endless suffering for not finding our way to the correct set of doctrines over the course of a single lifetime that sacrificing His son who he created for the purpose is not something to get too excited about.

Why would God make it such that we can sin? Why would God punish us?

I think God is far greater than to be so petty. God's love is something to experience directly for yourself, and it is certainly far beyond all comprehension.

As for your question - I believe every moment and every thing has its existence only in God, that all moves by God's movement. I believe that Jesus was one who had realised his utter unity in God, as have many other great souls like the Buddha, Ramakrishna and Tirumular. So God isn't outside to step in, rather everything is within God.

 

[Rapture Era]

No, I think that considering your idea of God is that he set things such that it was possible for me to go to a place of endless suffering for not finding our way to the correct set of doctrines over the course of a single lifetime that sacrificing His son who he created for the purpose is not something to get too excited about.

Why would God make it such that we can sin? Why would God punish us?

I think God is far greater than to be so petty. God's love is something to experience directly for yourself, and it is certainly far beyond all comprehension.

As for your question - I believe every moment and every thing has its existence only in God, that all moves by God's movement. I believe that Jesus was one who had realised his utter unity in God, as have many other great souls like the Buddha, Ramakrishna and Tirumular. So God isn't outside to step in, rather everything is within God.

Okay fair enough, it was a pleasure dialogging with you! Take care.

 

[Kirran]

Okay fair enough, it was a pleasure dialogging with you! Take care.

Haha, you beat me to it, I was about to do the same, you take care as well.

 

[Rapture Era]

Firstly, Christianity is definitely not the only religion to claim it is the only way to heaven. There are sects doing this in plenty of religions.

I almost forgot, I did want to comment on this. Who is the authority behind the sects who are saying this? Can you quote them and the religions who are claiming they are the only way to heaven? Just curious.

 

[Kirran]

I almost forgot, I did want to comment on this. Who is the authority behind the sects who are saying this? Can you quote them and the religions who are claiming they are the only way to heaven? Just curious.

Primarily you have many Christian sects who say this (in some cases with mutually exclusive claims) and then you have quite a lot of Muslims who believe that any non-Muslim will go to hell, often with the proviso that maybe those who haven't heard of Islam will have a chance. But this varies, with some being more open-minded in their theology as with Christians.

Some Buddhists will speak of the teachings of the Buddha as the only way to enlightenment as well, which is vaguely analogous, but this exclusivism is generally the preserve of particular Abrahamist traditions.

 

[Laika]

Well, since you have been unable to present the data I originally requested I shall let you bee.

Sorry, I didn't mean to be jerkish- but I found it a weird question and wasn't sure if you were deliberately screwing with me. You obviously weren't and I misjudged it.

The purpose of such a ban is to compel conformity. The nature of controls on thought and speech rarely changes a person's "intent" immediately but instead get an outward appearence of observing the law. Generally, this works. So for example, you can have traffic laws to keep traffic flowing, but that doesn't stop road rage. Nor can any law prevent all traffic accidents. Rather the conformity in behaviour keeps the traffic moving and make the roads safer. It simply creates a framework for people to work around.

The reason I found your argument puzzling was because no law (or ban) can ever be 100% effective due to the physical limits on law enforcement. They can't be everywhere or control everything. I didn't accept the premise that a law had to be effective to be necessary or justifiable so your asking for evidence of it struck me as a bit absurd. It is simply that the ban is considered a desirable change in behaviour and therefore worth the effort of enforcing it. That is more authoritarian and perhaps not a common view.

So if you take an example like prohibition of alcohol in the US, it was never going to completely eliminate alcohol in the country but the outward change in behaviour was considered desirable. It however was disasterous for law enforcement because it gave big bussiness for organised crime like Al Capone, etc. However, if prohibition had eliminated alcohol from the US and turned that conformity into acceptence of the immorality of alcohol in the long-run (say over a generation) it would have been successful.

The point of banning of quran and the bible (aside from trying to get people to think outside the box) would be to get people to conform to the law and then create an oppurtunity in which new ideas could fill the gap.

Anyway- My bad for reading your message the wrong way. This is the first time I've suggested banning something in a debate topic on RF so I misunderstood the difference in our views. You could call that a blind spot I guess.

 

[Rapture Era]

Primarily you have many Christian sects who say this (in some cases with mutually exclusive claims) and then you have quite a lot of Muslims who believe that any non-Muslim will go to hell, often with the proviso that maybe those who haven't heard of Islam will have a chance. But this varies, with some being more open-minded in their theology as with Christians.

Some Buddhists will speak of the teachings of the Buddha as the only way to enlightenment as well, which is vaguely analogous, but this exclusivism is generally the preserve of particular Abrahamist traditions.

Ok I see. I would like to point out that the God of the Bible said very specifically that He created the universe, stars, sun, moon, this planet and all life on this planet. This is separate from the heaven and hell issues. This creation event establishes Jesus as the ultimate authority that I dont see anywhere else. I take this quote from the book of John in the bible:
In the beginning was the Word (Jesus), and the Word (Jesus) was with God, and the Word (Jesus) was God.
He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Thats a pretty incredible statement that points to Jesus being the creator of everything that we know exists. All I was trying to point out was that no other leader of any religion or god or gods or goddesses of any other belief system has ever claimed such incredible authority as being the only true living God as Jesus Christ Himself. So, I was thinking, if He claimed all of this and no one else as ever come close to these magnificent statements, wouldnt be worth the time to at least to look into it and see What He had to say? He has chosen to reveal Himself to mankind through the bible and He stepped into this world breifly to do what was necessary for our salvation. I dont see any other who has done so much for us. Anyway, just my thoughts.

 

[Kirran]

Ok I see. I would like to point out that the God of the Bible said very specifically that He created the universe, stars, sun, moon, this planet and all life on this planet. This is separate from the heaven and hell issues. This creation event establishes Jesus as the ultimate authority that I dont see anywhere else. I take this quote from the book of John in the bible:
In the beginning was the Word (Jesus), and the Word (Jesus) was with God, and the Word (Jesus) was God.
He was with God in the beginning. Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.
Thats a pretty incredible statement that points to Jesus being the creator of everything that we know exists. All I was trying to point out was that no other leader of any religion or god or gods or goddesses of any other belief system has ever claimed such incredible authority as being the only true living God as Jesus Christ Himself. So, I was thinking, if He claimed all of this and no one else as ever come close to these magnificent statements, wouldnt be worth the time to at least to look into it and see What He had to say? He has chosen to reveal Himself to mankind through the bible and He stepped into this world breifly to do what was necessary for our salvation. I dont see any other who has done so much for us. Anyway, just my thoughts.

Well, whoever wrote the Bible put that in it. I believe that the God of the Bible did create everything, and I believe He is also the God of the Bhagavad Gita, the Tirumantiram, the Gospel of Ramakrishna etc.

Why do you think no other religious tradition has claimed that level of authority? Of course they have!

 

[Rapture Era]

Well, whoever wrote the Bible put that in it. I believe that the God of the Bible did create everything, and I believe He is also the God of the Bhagavad Gita, the Tirumantiram, the Gospel of Ramakrishna etc.

Why do you think no other religious tradition has claimed that level of authority? Of course they have!

You have been on this site more than I have and interacted with many more people with different beliefs I presume, so I'm sure you know more about them than I, but, thats why I asked if you could quote any text that was as comprehensive as the bible concerning the origins of the universe and life. I am not aware of any one who claims this. You said of course they have and I was just wondering who the authority figure was, who said it and what exactly was said.

 

[Kirran]

You have been on this site more than I have and interacted with many more people with different beliefs I presume, so I'm sure you know more about them than I, but, thats why I asked if you could quote any text that was as comprehensive as the bible concerning the origins of the universe and life. I am not aware of any one who claims this. You said of course they have and I was just wondering who the authority figure was, who said it and what exactly was said.

To be honest most of my knowledge about religions comes from independent reading, rather than on here.

Hmm, so I'm clear, you are searching for a scripture which gives a clear account of a creation narrative, as found in Genesis?

If so, there are certainly plenty out there, but many scriptures don't feature such things on account of being associated with traditions to which such idea do not apply, or simply on account of being different in focus.

 

[Rapture Era]

To be honest most of my knowledge about religions comes from independent reading, rather than on here.

Hmm, so I'm clear, you are searching for a scripture which gives a clear account of a creation narrative, as found in Genesis?

If so, there are certainly plenty out there, but many scriptures don't feature such things on account of being associated with traditions to which such idea do not apply, or simply on account of being different in focus.

Right, I guess thats what I'm saying. There are no scriptures that I know of coming from another god or gods that claim what Jesus has claimed. I think that is important because origins are important. We want the answers to, Where did we come from? Why are we here? What is our purpose? Where do we go when we die? There doesnt seem to be anything that answers these question more completely than what the bible. Sorry, I'm cooking and trying to answer here at the same time haahaaa!

 

[Kirran]

Right, I guess thats what I'm saying. There are no scriptures that I know of coming from another god or gods that claim what Jesus has claimed. I think that is important because origins are important. We want the answers to, Where did we come from? Why are we here? What is our purpose? Where do we go when we die? There doesnt seem to be anything that answers these question more completely than what the bible. Sorry, I'm cooking and trying to answer here at the same time haahaaa!

No worries, keep an eye on the cooking.

Well you get entire philosophies of life in the Qur'an and its tradition, in the Bhagavad Gita, in the Shaiva holy texts, in the Upanishads. The demand for a central infallible scripture which explains everything is of course largely an Abrahamic construct, and other religions provide complete philosophies without needing to include one. Daoism, much of Hinduism and Buddhism and so forth for example.

A religion of any real establishment can be lived in every aspect of life, they are complete, that's in the nature of a religion.

If you mean one individual saying they are God in an inclusive sense, then this is the core philosophy of much of Hinduism, Sufism, Daoism, Sikhism and Buddhism. If you mean in an exclusive sense, then this is central to Alawi Islam, to the early Nation of Islam, to other branches of Hinduism etc.

 

[Rapture Era]

No worries, keep an eye on the cooking.

Well you get entire philosophies of life in the Qur'an and its tradition, in the Bhagavad Gita, in the Shaiva holy texts, in the Upanishads. The demand for a central infallible scripture which explains everything is of course largely an Abrahamic construct, and other religions provide complete philosophies without needing to include one. Daoism, much of Hinduism and Buddhism and so forth for example.

A religion of any real establishment can be lived in every aspect of life, they are complete, that's in the nature of a religion.

If you mean one individual saying they are God in an inclusive sense, then this is the core philosophy of much of Hinduism, Sufism, Daoism, Sikhism and Buddhism. If you mean in an exclusive sense, then this is central to Alawi Islam, to the early Nation of Islam, to other branches of Hinduism etc.

Well, I guess what I'm saying is that I dont see any other religion or ideology claiming the same thing about origins as the bible does. Anyway, thanks for your imput! I have really enjoyed dialogging with you! Its nice to discuss these things without being mean or rude. I think we will all know what the real truth is when we die. But we will have to accept our decisions whatever they may be for all eternity. Thank you again for being so kind! Have a great weekend!

 

[Kirran]

Well, I guess what I'm saying is that I dont see any other religion or ideology claiming the same thing about origins as the bible does. Anyway, thanks for your imput! I have really enjoyed dialogging with you! Its nice to discuss these things without being mean or rude. I think we will all know what the real truth is when we die. But we will have to accept our decisions whatever they may be for all eternity. Thank you again for being so kind! Have a great weekend!

Fair enough, maybe if you read some other texts you will But of course, if one reads them through the lens of comparison against another it's likely they'll be found wanting.

Yeah, good we could keep it civil, thanks for the conversation.

I believe in reincarnation myself so

Have a happy Sunday.

 

[Rapture Era]

Fair enough, maybe if you read some other texts you will But of course, if one reads them through the lens of comparison against another it's likely they'll be found wanting.

Yeah, good we could keep it civil, thanks for the conversation.

I believe in reincarnation myself so

Have a happy Sunday.

Yes you are so right about the comparison lens! Well hopefully you come back as the windshield and not the bug! I'm just messing with you! Maybe we will talk again!

 

[LeahOne]

I'd like to know how banning certain Scriptures would be preferable to requiring only one Scripture for everyone?

 

[Esaurus]

You may want to look into the future Vice President of the United States, the "Christian, Conservative, and Republican in that order" Mike Pence, and how heavily Christianity has guided his political career. We are also still having to fight to keep religious creation mythos out of science class rooms.
I so sorely wish what you said is true, because there are still too many woes within society that are directly the fault of such Conservative Christian religiosity--such as the suicide rate among the LBGT community, America's high teen pregnancy rate, combating the rights of minorities, and millions who have such a profound ignorance of science that they can actually manage to say "it's just a theory"--but, unfortunately, that just is not true.

Hello Shadow Wolf,

In response to your statements above, may I ask why is the Christian faith and its associated creation truth so often spoken of as if it is the only cause of the woes of humanity--even in the midst of other more obvious causes? Would you mind if I as a Christian speak in defense of the faith?

It is written:
"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life (St. John 3:6)."

Many of us have heard this picture of the gospel in a nutshell many times. As we see, God gave His son to save us from perishing as the world is perishing as we see so very well around us. This puts the Biblical gospel (Christianity) in direct opposition to many that claim that it is a mythological woe. It is instead man's only hope. I speak as a witness. Whether one believes the gospel or not determines his course of life whether toward fulfillment or shame.

May I also state as a word of caution that's also written:
"Woe unto them that call evil good, and good evil; that put darkness for light, and light for darkness; that put bitter for sweet, and sweet for bitter (Isaiah 5:20)!"

Think about the common political practice of a candidate that tries to build up his own reputation only by smearing that of his opponent. So is the Biblical gospel that protects liberty likewise often smeared.

Moreover, I read posts that describe the terrible horrors of hell and that one individual said that we should all avoid hell all costs! Despite the fact that no one wants hell , people end up there because they were lured into a mad rush toward it by false, deceptive promises.

Should the Bible be banned?

* * *
About the statement that you answered, "Christianity is no longer institutionalized as part of government and education in western civilization."

The Christian life that I live is only a way of life based on the liberty afforded by the Christian gospel and is not a part of government. However, as stated in the American Declaration of Independence, governments are instituted among men to protect the liberty given by God that endowed all men with unalienable rights. (I paraphrased.)

Please note the message that unalienable rights only come from God of the Bible. How then can government protect God-given right if ignorant of them or if the concepts of God;s word are removed?

Earl