Banning ‘Woke’ Words in State Documents, Arkansas Governor Signs Executive Order

[icehorse]

You say safe spaces as if a man couldn't follow a woman into a bathroom, or dressing room in the case of Trump and E. Gene Carroll, and attack her. Women live with the threat of attack everywhere, but you make it sound as if women are safe in bathrooms if it wasn't for trans people being in there using the facility, even if minding their own business. What is the number of attacks on women from trans people versus men? How safe are women, really?

You keep suggesting that women are safe unless a trans person is present, but you haven't shown any evidence of that as being a considerable reality.

I've used the word NORMALIZATION many times. Can you take a shot at what I mean by that?

This didn't answer my question. What do you mean exactly by "normalization?" Normalization of what? What does normalization have to do with the lumping together of exhibitionists, voyeurs, and innocent trans women?

Let's go back to the article about the exhibitionist in the gym:

- BECAUSE the gym has a "gender self identification policy", the staff was powerless to keep this this known exhibitionist from entering the gym.
- the idea of gender self identification is becoming NORMAL
- So any male pervert can declare himself to be trans and enter anywhere he wants

This is what I mean by NORMALIZATION

 

[icehorse]

What makes this a zero-sum game?

Granting people the right to infinite, variable "gender self identification" allows perverts to make women's lives worse.

Perverts win, women lose. zero-sum.

There are now trans women who keep their male junk, declare themselves lesbians, and take umbrage when lesbians will not date them. This is one origin for the bull**** term TERF.

 

[Soandso]

Let's go back to the article about the exhibitionist in the gym:

My time is valuable and I didn't read it. You'll need to bring up the points yourself if you'd like for me to read them

BECAUSE the gym has a "gender self identification policy", the staff was powerless to keep this this known exhibitionist from entering the gym.

What did this exhibitionist do?

the idea of gender self identification is becoming NORMAL

How else are people going to express that they are trans?

So any male pervert can declare himself to be trans and enter anywhere he wants

People should be punished if they commit a crime on an individual basis. What we don't do is isolate whole people groups based on knee jerk reactions to unfounded fears or isolated events that happen here and there. This is why we make judgements based on good foundations instead of unfounded fears

Granting people the right to infinite, variable "gender self identification" allows perverts to make women's lives worse.

Perverts will do whatever they want with or without that avenue. I don't find the argument convincing

There are now trans women who keep their male junk, declare themselves lesbians, and take umbrage when lesbians will not date them.

Then they will probably be single for a long time if they can't get over themselves. Everyone has preferences and they are free to date whoever they please assuming the person returns that sentiment

 

[fantome profane]

People should be punished if they commit a crime on an individual basis. What we don't do is isolate whole people groups based on knee jerk reactions to unfounded fears or isolated events that happen here and there.

That is it, pure and simple.

 

[F1fan]

I've used the word NORMALIZATION many times. Can you take a shot at what I mean by that?



Let's go back to the article about the exhibitionist in the gym:

- BECAUSE the gym has a "gender self identification policy", the staff was powerless to keep this this known exhibitionist from entering the gym.
- the idea of gender self identification is becoming NORMAL
- So any male pervert can declare himself to be trans and enter anywhere he wants

This is what I mean by NORMALIZATION

Will limiting trans people from access to gyms and bathrooms eliminate perverts from doing their thing? No, they will still do whatever they will do as perverts. Meanwhile trans people are banned and left to suffer from the acts of a few perverts. That sounds misdirected to me. Why not try to limit perverts instead of trans people?

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Granting people the right to infinite, variable "gender self identification" allows perverts to make women's lives worse.

You have been shown hard data that demonstrates that this isn't true.

What else can we do to convince you that this dogma you hold to is false?

Perverts win, women lose. zero-sum.

Only if the benefits and losses weight equally. In this case, the evidence suggests that the benefits outweigh the (largely imaginary) losses. Your evocation of "zero sum" is fallacious in this instance because it doesn't take into account the actual facts of harm vs. benefit in terms of what TRANS PEOPLE gain from it. You're couching it exclusively in "perverts vs. women". Which is pretty blatantly a false dichotomy.

There are now trans women who keep their male junk, declare themselves lesbians, and take umbrage when lesbians will not date them. This is one origin for the bull**** term TERF.

I agree, the term is not accurate.

Because TERFs are not feminists. They should be called TERs.

 

[metis]

So much of the argument is moot since who is going to check the "equipment" when one enters a bathroom or locker room?

No, I really think the pro-discriminatory argument is more political and/or religious.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I don't know. I don't keep track of who has hurled which insult. But I've been branded: transphobic, bigoted, anti-trans, alt-right, misogynistic (love that one)..

Ah, you mean the one you keep hurling at me and another poster a bunch of times?
Excuse me while I go play my tiny violin.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Transgender female says I don't feel safe in the male bathroom. Solution, go in the female's.

Female says I don't feel safe in the female's bathroom with a transgender female. Solution, deal with it.

I've been in the washroom with a trans woman many times. I've never felt unsafe. In fact, she helped me fix my makeup.
Do people not know that women's rooms have separate stalls with doors on them?

 

[SkepticThinker]

How do you propose women differentiate between exhibitionists (as I showed in an earlier post), voyeurs, and an innocent trans woman?

The former have their bits and pieces hanging out, while the latter is just going in a stall and using the toilet or washing their hands at the sink or whatever.


I don't know what voyeurs are planning on doing in the women's washroom anyway. Most women's rooms have separate stalls with doors on them so the only thing anyone can see is your feet.

There is a big difference between criticizing an idea, and hurling an ad hominem.

Interesting.

All I've done here is advocate for women having safe spaces. How does that constitute bad behavior?

 

[SkepticThinker]

When women are in their own safe spaces, anyone who exposes their male parts is infringing on those women's rights. It is not the same for men

then you haven't read the articles i've posted. now to be clear, you might need to make one or two tiny logical steps, but come on man, i know you have it in you!

I've never seen anyone's "parts" in a women's washroom in my entire 43 years on this planet.
We have separate stalls with doors on them and women don't tend to walk around naked in public restrooms, from my experience, anyway.

 

[SkepticThinker]

So much of the argument is moot since who is going to check the "equipment" when one enters a bathroom or locker room?

No, I really think the pro-discriminatory argument is more political and/or religious.

Funny how it always comes back to this, eh?

 

[Soandso]

So much of the argument is moot since who is going to check the "equipment" when one enters a bathroom or locker room?

Maybe the bathroom attendants who offer towels or perfume in clubs and hotels for tips? Their job is sucky enough as it is, but let's add penis inspector to their job description

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Maybe the bathroom attendants who offer towels or perfume in clubs and hotels for tips? Their job is sucky enough as it is, but let's add penis inspector to their job description

Do you think that would make them less or more likely to receive tips?

 

[icehorse]

People should be punished if they commit a crime on an individual basis. What we don't do is isolate whole people groups based on knee jerk reactions to unfounded fears or isolated events that happen here and there. This is why we make judgements based on good foundations instead of unfounded fears

Just roughly speaking - how would you propose doing the math on that? Like, how many assaults on women due to men entering safe spaces unchecked is okay in your mind?

 

[F1fan]

Maybe the bathroom attendants who offer towels or perfume in clubs and hotels for tips? Their job is sucky enough as it is, but let's add penis inspector to their job description

No, they can just hire the perverts. That get's them off the streets so they aren't a threat to women anymore.

 

[icehorse]

Will limiting trans people from access to gyms and bathrooms eliminate perverts from doing their thing? No, they will still do whatever they will do as perverts. Meanwhile trans people are banned and left to suffer from the acts of a few perverts. That sounds misdirected to me. Why not try to limit perverts instead of trans people?

Locker rooms, not gyms.

It would be different if assault on women was rare, but sadly it's not. So the real math is more like "make life a little more convenient for a tiny number of trans people, in such a way that makes the very common occurrence of assault easier for bad guys to execute"

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Locker rooms, not gyms.

It would be different if assault on women was rare, but sadly it's not. So the real math is more like "make life a little more convenient for a tiny number of trans people, in such a way that makes the very common occurrence of assault easier for bad guys to execute"

Let's ignore for a moment that you have yet to provide a shred of evidence that trans-inclusive laws lead to an increase in abuse (and that we have compelling evidence to the contrary) and instead engage in an argument by analogy:

Do you believe a non-zero number of homosexuals are paedophiles?

If yes, then do you also agree that allowing homosexuals to be teachers therefore statistically increases the likelihood of children being exposed to paedophiles?

If yes, then do you believe we should ban homosexuals from becoming teachers?

 

[icehorse]

You have been shown hard data that demonstrates that this isn't true.

Did you actually read the "hard data" or are you just parroting here, because parroting is what people following dogma do.

Only if the benefits and losses weight equally. In this case, the evidence suggests that the benefits outweigh the (largely imaginary) losses. Your evocation of "zero sum" is fallacious in this instance because it doesn't take into account the actual facts of harm vs. benefit in terms of what TRANS PEOPLE gain from it. You're couching it exclusively in "perverts vs. women". Which is pretty blatantly a false dichotomy.

You're right, it's possible that under the current system trans people are benefiting in this zero sum game. Although I question whether the bad feelings they're generating are netting out well for them. But it's still a zero sum game

 

[icehorse]

So much of the argument is moot since who is going to check the "equipment" when one enters a bathroom or locker room?

No, I really think the pro-discriminatory argument is more political and/or religious.

Don't you think that law abiding citizens look out for each other? Don't people call 911 on behalf of others? No "guards" are necessary. What's necessary is that seeing a man enter a woman's safe space sets off alarms in us.