Banning ‘Woke’ Words in State Documents, Arkansas Governor Signs Executive Order

[SkepticThinker]

Don't you think that law abiding citizens look out for each other? Don't people call 911 on behalf of others? No "guards" are necessary. What's necessary is that seeing a man enter a woman's safe space sets off alarms in us.

Oh cool so now we're going to harrass people entering public washrooms?
Who is going to do the genital inspections?

(Which is already happening, by the way.)

Well then. you have something to look forward to.

I'm going to go ahead and guess then I will never ever see anyone's genitals in public restrooms.

You didn't address the point though, did you?

 

[SkepticThinker]

hahaha - of course, let's use a few individual's lived experience dictate public policy... oh wait, that's exactly what the woke prescribe!

That's what you've been advocating.

 

[SkepticThinker]

I looked carefully at your link, did you?

This was one study that happened in a very BLUE state. As I'm sure you know, there has been a serious replication crisis in science recently. It's now almost always the case that meta studies are necessary to make useful determinations.

LOL Not a blue state!!

The articles examined the data across several different states spanning over a decade, in some.

 

[icehorse]

The point is that you ignore women's voices when it suits you, and raise them up when they agree with you. You're not a paragon of feminism.

No, I go with large statistical evidence.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

No, I go with large statistical evidence.

Except when it disagrees with you, then you dismiss or ignore it.

Another perfect example of my point.

 

[ImmortalFlame]

Don't you think that law abiding citizens look out for each other? Don't people call 911 on behalf of others? No "guards" are necessary. What's necessary is that seeing a man enter a woman's safe space sets off alarms in us.

Wow. So your solution to this issue is "No worries - people will just harass others based on appearance and presumptions!"

Again, according to YOU, trans men should be made to use women's restrooms. And then, again according to YOU, it is perfectly reasonable for someone to CALL THE POLICE on that very person for doing the very thing you are prescribing they should do.

Sounds like a totally flawless solution.

 

[icehorse]

Except when it disagrees with you, then you dismiss or ignore it.

Another perfect example of my point.

Your team has provided three data points:

- a single study, in one blue state
- a large poll, which I've acknowledged and discussed. By your team's poll, 47% of women are unhappy with this outcome. Not a majority, but very important from a utilitarian perspective.
- a breakdown of where assaults occur, which was lacking details, but in which 25% of assaults occur in public places.

 

[icehorse]

Wow. So your solution to this issue is "No worries - people will just harass others based on appearance and presumptions!"

hahaha - So if you see what looks like a crime being committed you would not call 911 because all you have to go on are appearances and presumptions?

Again, according to YOU, trans men should be made to use women's restrooms. And then, again according to YOU, it is perfectly reasonable for someone to CALL THE POLICE on that very person for doing the very thing you are prescribing they should do.

I never proposed that.

==

Okay, it's clear we disagree. I'm going to try to steelman your team's position.

Your team is concerned with providing reasonable access for trans women to women's spaces. Your team does not feel this poses any increased risks to women in general. Your team does not feel that this infringes on women's rights. Your team does not feel that this hurts women's overall well being.

Is that a fair summary?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Your team has provided three data points:

- a single study, in one blue state
- a large poll, which I've acknowledged and discussed. By your team's poll, 47% of women are unhappy with this outcome. Not a majority, but very important from a utilitarian perspective.
- a breakdown of where assaults occur, which was lacking details, but in which 25% of assaults occur in public places.

Um no. Who cares if the state is "blue" by the way? What kind of argument is that?

This was conducted in Massachusetts:

"Data come from public record requests of criminal incident reports related to assault, sex crimes, and voyeurism in public restrooms, locker rooms, and dressing rooms to measure safety and privacy violations in these spaces. This study finds that the passage of such laws is not related to the number or frequency of criminal incidents in these spaces. Additionally, the study finds that reports of privacy and safety violations in public restrooms, locker rooms, and changing rooms are exceedingly rare. This study provides evidence that fears of increased safety and privacy violations as a result of nondiscrimination laws are not empirically grounded."


Gender Identity Nondiscrimination Laws in Public Accommodations: a Review of Evidence Regarding Safety and Privacy in Public Restrooms, Locker Rooms, and Changing Rooms - Sexuality Research and Social Policy



This one examined:
“Over 200 municipalities and 18 states have nondiscrimination laws protecting transgender people’s access to facilities consistent with the gender they live every day,” according to the coalition. "None of those jurisdictions have [sic] seen a rise in sexual violence or other public safety issues due to nondiscrimination laws. Assaulting another person in a restroom or changing room remains against the law in every single state.

Strangio also noted that allowing transgender people to use the bathroom corresponding to their gender identity “doesn’t increase in any way public safety incidents.”

There are two central falsehoods to the legislators’ reasoning, Strangio said. One is "that transgender people aren’t real and [are] inherently dangerous.” The second falsehood is that without HB2, "non-transgender people will take advantage" of the situation -- for example, a man could dress up as a woman to enter a woman's bathroom.

“All this does is to heighten gender policing of everyone by law enforcement, and individual people who do not conform to gender norms are targeted," Strangio said.

​

Sexual Assault and Domestic Violence Organizations Debunk 'Bathroom Predator Myth'



This one reviewed sexual assault complaints in 5 different cities:

"Based on our review of sexual assault complaints in Atlanta, Dallas, Miami Beach, Miami Gardens and Tucson, before and after an official amendment to the human rights ordinance in that locality, we did not find evidence of sexual assaults taking place in which men, under the guise of being women or transgender, entered women’s bathrooms to commit a sexual assault or otherwise victimize women.
Our overall findings are consistent with the research literature on sexual assault, which indicates that victims of sexual assault are primarily female (over 90 percent) and that, in 8 of 10 cases, the assault is not perpetrated by a stranger but rather by a person known to the victim, such as an acquaintance or intimate partner.5"

https://www.policinginstitute.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/07/PF_Research-Brief_JULY-2017-FINAL-1.pdf


Still waiting for the stats that back up your claims.

 

[We Never Know]

I've been in the washroom with a trans woman many times. I've never felt unsafe. In fact, she helped me fix my makeup.
Do people not know that women's rooms have separate stalls with doors on them?

There ya have it. One good = all good.

 

[metis]

Don't you think that law abiding citizens look out for each other? Don't people call 911 on behalf of others? No "guards" are necessary. What's necessary is that seeing a man enter a woman's safe space sets off alarms in us.

You did not answer my question because you can't answer it unless you intend to be the perverted genital inspector.

 

[fantome profane]

Your team is concerned with providing reasonable access for trans women to women's spaces. Your team does not feel this poses any increased risks to women in general. Your team does not feel that this infringes on women's rights. Your team does not feel that this hurts women's overall well being.

I ( speaking for myself here) don’t think it helps to speak about what someone does or not “feel”. We need solid evidence before we engage in discrimination against one group, particularly when there is already strong evidence that such discrimination will lead to violence and death.

 

[icehorse]

I ( speaking for myself here) don’t think it helps to speak about what someone does or not “feel”. We need solid evidence before we engage in discrimination against one group, particularly when there is already strong evidence that such discrimination will lead to violence and death.

Who's advocating for discrimination of trans people?

 

[SkepticThinker]

There ya have it. One good = all good.

Is that what you think I was saying? I suppose it's better than assuming that trans people are akin to perverts.

Are you aware that women's washrooms have separate stalls with doors on them? Why won't anyone respond to that fact?

 

[fantome profane]

Who's advocating for discrimination of trans people?

Anyone who wants to prevent transgender women from using the same facilities that cis gender women use.

Women should be allowed to use the facilities designated for women.

 

[icehorse]

Still waiting for the stats that back up your claims.

Ok, the policinginstitute study was done with a very narrow context. So some conclusions might be drawn, but I would say not the broad conclusions you're hoping to see.

Um no. Who cares if the state is "blue" by the way? What kind of argument is that?

It's not about blue vs red, it's about the breadth of the studies.

==

The abcnews article does not provide links to actual studies.

==

So your post #609 looks convincing at a glance, but it doesn't hold up well to scrutiny.

I'm sure we'll disagree on this point, but it strikes me that your team is the one making an extraordinary / defies common sense claim. And so you need to provide extraordinarily good evidence to support your claim.

 

[icehorse]

Anyone who wants to prevent transgender women from using the same facilities that cis gender women use.

Women should be allowed to use the facilities designated for women.

Well I'm pretty sure you'll disagree with this, but a trans woman is not a woman.

 

[icehorse]

Is that what you think I was saying? I suppose it's better than assuming that trans people are akin to perverts.

Are you aware that women's washrooms have separate stalls with doors on them? Why won't anyone respond to that fact?

How about locker rooms?

 

[fantome profane]

Well I'm pretty sure you'll disagree with this, but a trans woman is not a woman.

Not only do I disagree, but clearly this is a bigoted opinion. I point that out so that you understand why your views are widely considered to be bigoted, this is the reason.

 

[SkepticThinker]

Ok, the policinginstitute study was done with a very narrow context. So some conclusions might be drawn, but I would say not the broad conclusions you're hoping to see.

Oh, you mean the study that directly addressed your claims in this thread?

"... we did not find evidence of sexual assaults taking place in which men, under the guise of being women or transgender, entered women’s bathrooms to commit a sexual assault or otherwise victimize women."

It's not about blue vs red, it's about the breadth of the studies.

Then why do you keep pointing out that one study was carried out in a blue state???

==

The abcnews article does not provide links to actual studies.

Fair enough, I suppose.

==

So your post #609 looks convincing at a glance, but it doesn't hold up well to scrutiny.

What I see here is more hand-waving of inconvenient facts and nothing to address the content.

I'm sure we'll disagree on this point, but it strikes me that your team is the one making an extraordinary / defies common sense claim. And so you need to provide extraordinarily good evidence to support your claim.

Which claim(s)?

Where's your data that we've all been waiting for? Can you show us evidence of an increase in violence against women using public rest rooms in states that have anti-discrimination bathroom laws?

How about locker rooms?

Same deal. I change in a change stall.