Baptism For The Dead (1 Corinthians 15:29)

[Katzpur]

Norman: Thank you for starting this thread. My following words are to be taken in a friendly, genuine fashion: I did notice references to baptism for the dead in the BOM. It sounds scary....messing with the spirits. I have wanted to discuss this topic for quite some time. I have some questions.....

I hope you don't mind hearing from someone other than Norman.

1. theoretically, if every family in the world had one Mormon, would it be possible that everyone could be saved because they could all be baptized, right?

That's an interesting thought, and when it gets right down to it, we are all obviously related at some point. In order for a Mormon to be baptized on behalf of someone else, though, he has to be able to identify the specific relationship.

2. If I didn't want to be baptized in the Mormon church after I died, you mentioned that the LDS church would respect that and not baptize me but 100 years later, another Mormon may baptize me then (is that correct?)

That's correct -- provided another Mormon was able to identify you as his relative.

3. Say, for example, I'm dead, and a Mormon family member wants to baptize me, does someone in the spirit world contact me to get my consent first?

No, not exactly. But we do believe that the work of spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ is being done every minute of every day in the Spirit World, and that when someone (i.e. someone's spirit) accepts the "restored gospel," he will also come to recognize that baptism by immersion by someone who holds the authority to do so is essential to his ultimately receiving the greatest blessings in Heaven.

4. What happens if I'm in the spirit world and then I'm baptized in the LDS church?

If someone were to be baptized on your behalf, you would know that this took place. You would then have a choice as to whether to accept this baptism or to reject it. If you had changed your mind and decided to accept it, it would be -- in God's eyes -- exactly as if you had been baptized yourself while you were alive. If you were still of the same opinion as you are now and chose to reject it, it would be as if no one had ever done the work for you. The person who was baptized in your behalf would simply have wasted his time. He would have no way of knowing whether you accepted his offer or not. It would be between you and God. The important thing to understand is that we don't believe that baptism = conversion. Baptism is essential for the "fullness of salvation" but no one can be forced to be a Mormon against his will.

Sorry, these are genuine questions....I'm trying to work out how it works. I'm not into mockery even if I disagree but I do want to understand it.

I'm sensing a greater sincerity in your posts than I did at first, and I apologize for possibly initially misjudging you.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Baptism has been a rite of passage for christians since the earliest times.
some believe it is an essential requirement for salvation...equally some do not.
Some believe that total immersion is essential, the didache teaches that it was not.
many believe that it must be performed in the name of the Trinity.

It would be reasonable to suppose that those who were not baptised during life, will have the opportunity
to be saved by repenting and finding salvation after death.

The LDS offer one way that gives support to this process. They believe this proxy baptism is one way to acieve this.
The souls of the dead are not being coerced in any way, they always have the option to reject the process.

Others like myself are not convinced of this need for a proxy baptism. And that even non christians can achieve God's redemption and salvation. But I have no objection to the offer being made.

 

[LASTINGLIGHT]

What happens to the hundreds of millions of people who have lived and died before the age of written records?

 

[Katzpur]

What happens to the hundreds of millions of people who have lived and died before the age of written records?

This is an excellent question and one that I'm sure a great many Mormons have asked themselves. We really don't know the answer for sure. We do know, however, that this work will continue throughout the Millennium, at which time Jesus Christ will reign personally on the earth. Presumably God has figured out a way for the work to be done for everyone. I suspect that it doesn't matter a great deal at this point because we still have billions of names (after written records were kept) to keep us busy.

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

What happens to the hundreds of millions of people who have lived and died before the age of written records?

That is indeed an important question.
It is one that brings into play the whole question of Works V Faith and the necessity of particular rituals during this life in order to achieve Salvation.

From my own point of view I see no conflict, as I believe in the possibility of universal salvation, and that life on earth and the hereafter are stages in a continuum of existence. However we know nothing of what follows except that we can take nothing with us. What seems important here may be of no significance later.

It is up to us to make the best choices in our lives, for all of creation, during the time that we are here. In all of that we are guided by the Holy Spirit and through our faith.
People of all faiths and none, and from all history, may be Judged by that same standard.

 

[LASTINGLIGHT]

That is indeed an important question.
It is one that brings into play the whole question of Works V Faith and the necessity of particular rituals during this life in order to achieve Salvation.

From my own point of view I see no conflict, as I believe in the possibility of universal salvation, and that life on earth and the hereafter are stages in a continuum of existence. However we know nothing of what follows except that we can take nothing with us. What seems important here may be of no significance later.

It is up to us to make the best choices in our lives, for all of creation, during the time that we are here. In all of that we are guided by the Holy Spirit and through our faith.
People of all faiths and none, and from all history, may be Judged by that same standard.

Or all people will not be judged at all but will return to where they came from.

"Have you then discovered the beginning that you seek after the end? For where the beginning is, there

shall the end be. Blessed is he who shall stand in the beginning, and he shall know the

end and shall not taste death."
Someone called Jesus

 

[Terrywoodenpic]

Or all people will not be judged at all but will return to where they came from.

"Have you then discovered the beginning that you seek after the end? For where the beginning is, there

shall the end be. Blessed is he who shall stand in the beginning, and he shall know the

end and shall not taste death."
Someone called Jesus

I have said in many previous threads that our souls are of God and return to God..
But that has nothing to do with Baptism so I refrained from going down that path this time, as it opens its own questions.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Baptism has been a rite of passage for christians since the earliest times.
some believe it is an essential requirement for salvation...equally some do not.
Some believe that total immersion is essential, the didache teaches that it was not.
many believe that it must be performed in the name of the Trinity.

It would be reasonable to suppose that those who were not baptised during life, will have the opportunity
to be saved by repenting and finding salvation after death.

The LDS offer one way that gives support to this process. They believe this proxy baptism is one way to acieve this.
The souls of the dead are not being coerced in any way, they always have the option to reject the process.

Others like myself are not convinced of this need for a proxy baptism. And that even non christians can achieve God's redemption and salvation. But I have no objection to the offer being made.

Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the matter. For me, I remember the words of Jesus on the cross to the repentant sinner: " You will be with me in paradise." He went unbaptised. I believe baptism to be good though. I was baptised in the ocean when I was eleven. It was a beautiful experience....and a sign to the public and church members that I was a follower of Jesus. We also have the example of JC himself being baptised by John, when he didn't need to be baptised. However, he was leading by example and telling us that he recommended it and supported it.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

What happens to the hundreds of millions of people who have lived and died before the age of written records?

That's an advanced question which is extremely important. As a Protestant, I was taught that Luke 16: 19-31 helps to understand the answer. Some people debate that this is a real story and say it is a parable. However, Jesus made it very clear which stories were fact and which were fiction by a certain technique.....he used names or no names. This is the only story that names 2 characters. Remember Aesops Fables, from an earlier time, employs a similar technique with no characters having names. If you study this story about Lazarus, the richman and Abraham, you will find the answers to loads of questions. Jesus gave the story to us for a reason, because he knew we would have questions about the afterlife.

In the story we have Abraham, who is in a place called Abraham's Bosom or Abraham's Side or The Waiting Place of Abraham. Abraham was a righteous prophet and yet, in this place, he is not in Heaven.....however, he has no pain there. I was taught that Abraham went to Heaven with all the other people God considered righteous at the time of Christ's death on the cross.
The temple curtain was riped from top to bottom and the new era....with the new covenant, took effect. The perfect sacrifice, the lamb of God, allowed people to enter Heaven for the first time.

God is a just and fair judge. We can be sure of that. However, teachings that state we are given more than one chance, like the doctrine for the baptism of the dead, and reincarnation do not match what Jesus is teaching us with this story. Read it carefully.....it's directly from the mouth of the savior. The rich man was given no second chance. Any teaching that contradicts these words of Christ must have flaws. I trust in the words of Christ here. God bless.

If you are interested in this topic, I have a modern day vision of a Muslim who went to Hell, and saw Jesus in the sky and cried out to him. To find out happened, just let me know.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

This is an excellent question and one that I'm sure a great many Mormons have asked themselves. We really don't know the answer for sure. We do know, however, that this work will continue throughout the Millennium, at which time Jesus Christ will reign personally on the earth. Presumably God has figured out a way for the work to be done for everyone. I suspect that it doesn't matter a great deal at this point because we still have billions of names (after written records were kept) to keep us busy.

Katzpur...I think it does matter (said politely). It really bothered me a great deal when I was younger. My father was a pastor and he explained a Christian interpretation of the story mentioned in Luke 16: 19-31 when answering my question. If you read my own reply to this quote above, you will find my perspective. Could you explain the LDS position on this Luke 16: 19-31? With thanks, once again.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Norman: Hi JFish123, could you please list sources to support your opinion?

Luke 16:19-31 is one.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Im assuming they are baptizing the deaceased who were also believers in baptism of the dead.

Id find it an offense to pray to Mary for my deceased grandmother, for example, because she is not Catholic. However, since she believes in baptism, and more important, she is a believer, why would it be unethical to baptise her? (Christian viewpoint)

Your reply is interesting but not a mainstream Christian view.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Norman: I do not understand this comment?

Notes:

The Family History library’s collection includes the names of more than 3 billion deceased people from over 100 countries. This information is contained on:
2.4 million rolls of microfilm
727,000 microfiche
356,000 books, serials, and other formats
Over 4,500 periodicals
3,725 electronic resources

Increasingly, these materials are being made available on the FamilySearch website. The records that are still only on microfilm or microfiche can be found by searching the FamilySearch Catalog. Many items can be loaned to local family history centers for a small fee.

The Family History Library is one of the top tourist destinations in Utah, with tens of thousands of people making a pilgrimage to the facility every year. Those considering a visit to Salt Lake City can find more information on visiting the Family History Library on FamilySearch.org. This library is just not for LDS members. People from other faiths, cultures and other back grounds that utilzie this library.

Example: The LDS Church helped a little Catholic parish preserve there records that were in bad shape. A hand full of students from BYU traveled there and digitzed the records and gave all of the recovery to that parish. With no strings attached this work was done and the students did not ask for a copy of any of the records.

Hi Norman: Yes, the LDS church is doing a wonderful job here, by preserving all these important records. And it's also terrific that they make it available to the public even if they are not Mormons. I take my hat off to the church for this. I have 4000 books in my personal library back home. I'm very much in support of keeping books and records.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

So those who never heard of Christ are doomed?

God is a just and fair judge. Mainstream Christians believe that God knows what he is doing and we have to trust his judgement on this.

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

Seriously? Are you saying that everyone in the world instinctively understands the gospel of Jesus Christ and can accept Him as his Savior without ever having heard His name before? So the Jews really have nothing to worry about, or the Muslims or the Hindus or anyone else who believes in God. Why on earth do you think Christ's last words to His Apostles were to teach His gospel throughout the world? And to baptize believers? If everybody already knows about Him and nobody needs to be baptized, He must just have been giving His Apostles some busy work to occupy their time. Surely this isn't what you believe. Tell me I misunderstood, and then explain to me again how some person living in an African jungle in the year 500 A.D., who had been practicing his tribe's centuries-old religion all his life, really knew all along that the Abrahamic God (whom he had never heard of) sent His Only Begotten Son, Jesus Christ (whom he had never heard of) to take his sins upon Him and suffer so that he might live again after death.

Katzpur: You raise some interesting points here. Personally, I believe that God can speak to the hearts of everyone and he knows those who have gone against his calling. It's true that many have never heard about Jesus and die in ignorance. However, I believe that God knows the hearts of men. He says that on Judgment Day, he will require everyone to give an account of what they have done.....and its implied that then he will judge them right?

 

[Hong Xiuquan]

This quote wins the quote of the year award. Seriously.

I wish people could understand that it's only an invitation. Here's the analogy I've used in the past: Let's say I'm a huge Taylor Swift fan, but you think she has absolutely no talent at all. I have the opportunity to buy a couple of extra tickets to one of her upcoming concerts and so I do. I send them to you via snail mail and tell them they're yours to use or to throw away. You don't even need to respond to me as to what your choice was. If you decided to use the tickets and enjoyed the show, you'd probably be grateful that I'd given you that one last opportunity. If you decided to throw them away, I'd have wasted my money, but that's all. That is a pretty accurate description of how we believe baptism for the dead works.

A good analogy.

 

[Katzpur]

Katzpur...I think it does matter (said politely).

When I said "I don't think it matters a great deal at this point" was was referring specifically to LASTINGLIGHT's question, "What happens to the hundreds of millions of people who have lived and died before the age of written records?" What I was saying is that we (i.e. Mormons) don't concern ourselves with the names of those people who lived prior to when birth and death records were kept, because we have plenty to do just doing the work for the individuals whom we actually can identify. We trust that the Lord will ultimately provide a means by which the other people can be identified -- even though this might not take place until the Millennium.

It really bothered me a great deal when I was younger. My father was a pastor and he explained a Christian interpretation of the story mentioned in Luke 16: 19-31 when answering my question. If you read my own reply to this quote above, you will find my perspective. Could you explain the LDS position on this Luke 16: 19-31? With thanks, once again.

I suspect you are thinking specifically of verse 26, which reads: "And beside all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they which would pass from hence to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from thence." We would agree that, prior to the Christ's death, this was the case. But during the three days in which His body lay in the tomb, He visited the spirits who were in prison (which would include the "certain rich man" mentioned in verse 19) and taught them His gospel. We believe that in doing so, he bridged the gulf that separated those in paradise and those in prison, and that from that time forth, those in paradise were able to communicate with those in prison. As those in prison came to accept the reality of Jesus' Atonement, their suffering would cease and they would be able to look forward to their own resurrections and to a reunion with God.

 

[Katzpur]

Katzpur: You raise some interesting points here. Personally, I believe that God can speak to the hearts of everyone and he knows those who have gone against his calling. It's true that many have never heard about Jesus and die in ignorance. However, I believe that God knows the hearts of men. He says that on Judgment Day, he will require everyone to give an account of what they have done.....and its implied that then he will judge them right?

I do agree with everything you have said here, and I have no doubt but that God will be just. Still, a person who has never even heard of Jesus Christ can hardly be expected to look to Him as his Savior. For us, it's not just a matter of getting into heaven. It's a matter of finding joy and comfort in the knowledge that the Son of God loved me enough to die for me. I would rather learn that after death (but prior to the Final Judgment) than to just be admitted into heaven not understanding what a beautiful plan God had designed for His children.

 

[Norman]

Katzpur...I think it does matter (said politely). It really bothered me a great deal when I was younger. My father was a pastor and he explained a Christian interpretation of the story mentioned in Luke 16: 19-31 when answering my question. If you read my own reply to this quote above, you will find my perspective. Could you explain the LDS position on this Luke 16: 19-31? With thanks, once again.

Norman: Hi Hong Xiuquan, excuse me for jumping in here. I would like to answer your question that you posed to Katzpur. Paradise, or “Abraham’s bosom”, cannot be equated with the kingdom of God, for at his resurrection Jesus told Mary: “Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father. (John 20:17.) Thief on the cross, Christ taught that there are two main divisions, which He called Paradise (Persian word), means ‘garden’), or Abraham’s Bosom, and hell. All spoken of in Luke 16: Jesus speaking to the thief on the cross…Luke 23;43…And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. (I put emphasis on paradise, which is not the final resting place for those who depart this life)

The great gulf between hell and paradise mentioned in Luke 16: and 23: Was destroyed by Jesus Christ, who made it possible for the gospel to be preached to the spirits in hell (spirit prison, as Isaiah and Peter called it), so they may advance to paradise. (see 1 Peter 3:18-21; 1 Peter 4:5-6) Isaiah 41:7…To open the blind eyes, to bring out the prisoners from the Prison and them that sit in darkness out of the prison house.

Zechariah 9:11…As for thee also, by the blood of my convenant I have sent forth thy prisoners of the pit wherein is no water.
Obadiah 1:21 And saviors‍ shall come up on mount Zion‍ to judge‍ the mount of Esau; and the kingdom‍ shall be the Lord’s. (Saviors on Mount Zion are those who perform work for our kindred dead)
Matthew 12:40…For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
John 5:25...Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
1Peter 3:19…By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison.
1 Peter 3:20…By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison; Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
1 Peter 4:5…Who shall give account to him that is ready to judge the quick (“living” in the Greek) and the dead (physical death).
2 Peter 4:6…For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.
Hebrews 11:40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. (Paul Is referring to those who are dead, cannot accept the gospel without proxy ordinances by the living)


Luke 16:19-31? Before the death of Jesus Christ, there was a “great gulf” between spirit prison and spirit paradise, meaning that spirits could not move from one place or condition to the other. Latter-Day revelation helps us understand that “spirit prison” includes not only the wicked who did not repent of their sins (like the rich man in the parable of Lazarus) but also good people who are waiting to learn and accept the fullness of the gospel. Such good people do not suffer torment like the wicked rich man in the parable.


The Atonement of Jesus Christ bridged the gulf between spirit prison and spirit paradise so that the gospel could be preached to those in spirit prison. Rom. 5: 11…And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Paul taught it best that there is a just God, in Romans 10:13-15…For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved…(14)…How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in him of whom they have not hear? And how shall they hear without a preacher?…(15)…And how shall they preach except they be sent? As it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace and bring glad tiding’s of good things?…(Messengers must be sent in this life and in the world of spirits)

 

[Norman]

The dead are already dead, they cannot choose Christ after death nor anyone else cannot make a choice for christ on their behalf. You live once and then the judgment

Norman: Hi JFish123, do you have any thing else you would like to add to support your claim?