Baptism: How necessary is it?

[BilliardsBall]

I would hope you would have answered the question first before moving forward with your belief on how one is saved, such as "No, I have never seen a scripture expressing the sentiment baptism has to do with sanctification/growth and is not salvific., but salvation comes via..."
I believe it's always significant when someone makes a strong doctrinal claim without a direct scripture reference, and also doesn't stop to acknowledge that they don't have one. That's a double confirmation for me that the person who made said claim, did not get it from scripture, but from somewhere else. So until such scripture is provided, we can move ahead knowing that, baptism has to do with sanctification/growth and is not salvific., is not Biblical.

You part from many Southern evangelicals in the above edited areas. But I have heard this other evangelical school of thought as well.

On the following points where you said "Salvation does not come from", you are right as salvation ultimately comes from the Father, Jesus, and Holy Spirit. How one accesses salvation is another matter to be discussed. There are verses for that on some of these.

+ baptism - Acts 2:38-39, Romans 6:4-7, Acts 22:16, etc. You've probably heard the rest.

+ confessing with one’s mouth/making Jesus Lord -Romans 10:9-10

+ repentance - Acts 3:19

I don't know, context doesn't seem to support that he's referring only to Jewish people.
Romans 1:7 To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be his holy people: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.

Here Paul is speaking to disciples "about" the Israelites.

Romans 10:1-2 Brothers and sisters, my heart's desire and prayer to God for the Israelites is that they may be saved. [2] For I can testify about them that they are zealous for God, but their zeal is not based on knowledge.

And Paul tells them what he's teaching is for all, no difference between Jew and Gentile.
Romans 10:11-13 As Scripture says, “Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame.” [12] For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile---the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, [13] for, “Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”

Just doesn't seem that way.

Ok.

I'm glad to hear that Jewish believers tend to place a very high value on being fundamental to scripture. That has been my understanding with Jews as well. It sounds to me then that the Jews to whom you refer that believe in Jesus are drawn to evangelicalism due to both their rejection of certain elements from Rome and also them appearing to follow scripture the closest. Am I understanding right or wrong?

I moved on because I didn't think you'd trust an argument from silence. I cannot find a verse saying "baptism isn't salvation" but I also cannot find a verse saying "vegetarianism isn't salvation" or "worshiping the Moon isn't salvation". I would not question my pastor, however, if he gave me 150 verses on a doctrine. Over 150 NT verses have a variant of "Trust Jesus for salvation". Again, I would say there are zero verses regarding confession, baptism and repentance being salvation.

I didn't say the whole epistle to the Romans was only to Jews, I said a passage was describing Jewish people. Romans 9, Israel's past, 10 present, 11 future... in Romans 7, he says, "Brethren I'm speaking to those who know the Mosaic Law..."

You are right, I think, about Messianic attititudes toward hermeneutics.

Thanks!

 

[e.r.m.]

Quite possibly, maybe even probably, but if they do as such they are going against Canon Law. No church, including the Catholic Church, has total control over its leaders, nor should they, imo. This isn't supposed to be like the Gestapo. Do you disagree?

I don't disagree. Thank you.

 

[e.r.m.]

The Baha’i Faith is not the religion you practice so you did well to remember as much as you did.

Thank you.

That’s an essential part of God’s Love for humanity. I had also considered Jesus response to the question of the greatest commandment where He refers to Deuteronomy 6:5 when He says:

Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.
This is the first and great commandment.
And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
Matthew 22:36-40

Yup.

When asks who is your neighbour He told the story of the Good Samaritan, a story about reaching across all boundaries, especially those around religion.

Very true.

You’re welcome. The purpose of this forum is create an environment where peoples of diverse faiths can have fellowship and learn from each other.

adrian009,
If you will, what does Baha'i do with a faith that kicking and screaming refuses to be considered as but a piece of a larger portrait? What does Baha'i do with passages like John 14:6, Acts 17:16, 29-31, John 3:17-18, Acts 4:12, and Matthew 24:23-26, and more, that make it exclusive?

Thank you.

 

[Dawnofhope]

adrian009,
If you will, what does Baha'i do with a faith that kicking and screaming refuses to be considered as but a piece of a larger portrait? What does Baha'i do with passages like John 14:6, Acts 17:16, 29-31, John 3:17-18, Acts 4:12, and Matthew 24:23-26, and more, that make it exclusive?

Thank you.

The Baha’i Faith teaches to associate with peoples of all faiths in a spirit of love and fellowship. I’m currently the Baha’i representative of my cities Interfaith Council that has representatives of the main Christian denominations as well as Muslims, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists. We work together to promote and safeguard the interests of all faiths. So on March 15 when a terrorist attack from a far right extremist resulted in the massacre of 51 Muslims while gathered peacefully at their Mosques to pray, we assisted our city council arrange a prayer vigil for those who were affected.

A city united

There are other examples but our concern is to promote peaceful and tolerant communities. We now live in multifaith and multiethnic communities and our council’s logo is ‘unity in diversity.’

Obviously some Christian groups don’t want to be part of our Council and working together can’t be forced. However most people these days have a family member or works alongside someone with a different faith or worldview. Christians aren’t the only faith adherents living lives worthy of admiration.

As you will appreciate Christians are a diverse faith community. There are a range of interpretations and understandings of the Bible. A minister of religion who joined us earlier in the year explained her role isn’t to tell people what to think or believe but assist her parishioners discover a theology that works best for them.

As a Baha’i I believe in the same God, Jesus and Bible as my Christian brothers and sisters. Many Christians would reject or be highly sceptical of such a claim. My relationship with God is more important than the approval of others. When Jesus explains He is the way, the truth and the light and nobody goes to the Father except through Him, He was comforting His disciples after having just informed them of His impending martyrdom. He reminds His disciples who are all Jewish that He is the fulfilment of scripture concerning their Messiah and if His people truly believed in Moses they would have believed in Him too. They were in fact obligated to follow Him as they should the other laws (Matthew 5:17-20). There is much more to John 14:6 but that’s enough for now.

 

[e.r.m.]

The Baha’i Faith teaches to associate with peoples of all faiths in a spirit of love and fellowship. I’m currently the Baha’i representative of my cities Interfaith Council that has representatives of the main Christian denominations as well as Muslims, Jews, Hindus and Buddhists. We work together to promote and safeguard the interests of all faiths. So on March 15 when a terrorist attack from a far right extremist resulted in the massacre of 51 Muslims while gathered peacefully at their Mosques to pray, we assisted our city council arrange a prayer vigil for those who were affected.

A city united

There are other examples but our concern is to promote peaceful and tolerant communities. We now live in multifaith and multiethnic communities and our council’s logo is ‘unity in diversity.’

My condolences to your community and the victims' families.. You're in New Zealand. That was horrible. There's no place for hatred, anywhere. Whatever one's beliefs, they ought to live in safety. All discussions, debates, and conversions are to be done without hatred, violence, or coercion.

Obviously some Christian groups don’t want to be part of our Council and working together can’t be forced. However most people these days have a family member or works alongside someone with a different faith or worldview. Christians aren’t the only faith adherents living lives worthy of admiration.

Of course, I agree with that.

As you will appreciate Christians are a diverse faith community. There are a range of interpretations and understandings of the Bible. A minister of religion who joined us earlier in the year explained her role isn’t to tell people what to think or believe but assist her parishioners discover a theology that works best for them.

Just FYI, most within Christendom agree that this diverse Christian faith community is a bad thing (again no hatred, violence, or coercion), as Jesus and the Bible authors had a message in mind when they spoke and wrote and it is that message they wished to convey, not the multiple divergences that have occurred since. Although there may be disagreements on the details of that original message, we at least agree on that. Within Christianity, those who would rather assist their parishioners discover a theology that works best for them, instead of trying to help them abide by the original message are fringe groups. It may be these fringe groups who align themselves most with Baha'i principles. Within Christianity at least, leaders who conduct themselves this way are considered disobedient to the faith by many of the core groups, according to 2 Timothy 4:3. The rest of us as well want all faiths to live in peace with one another. I and my peers as well have worked with those in many faiths without prejudice, malice, or discord as all Christians are expected to do.

As a Baha’i I believe in the same God, Jesus and Bible as my Christian brothers and sisters. Many Christians would reject or be highly sceptical of such a claim. My relationship with God is more important than the approval of others. When Jesus explains He is the way, the truth and the light and nobody goes to the Father except through Him, He was comforting His disciples after having just informed them of His impending martyrdom. He reminds His disciples who are all Jewish that He is the fulfilment of scripture concerning their Messiah and if His people truly believed in Moses they would have believed in Him too. They were in fact obligated to follow Him as they should the other laws (Matthew 5:17-20). There is much more to John 14:6 but that’s enough for now.

Thank you for explaining what you believe on John. I fully agree with your description and that there is much to it. I also see the phrase Jesus is the only way to the Father as part of that.

I do appreciate your efforts to promote peace in a diverse society. It's something we all need. Have a blessed day.

 

[Dawnofhope]

Just FYI, most within Christendom agree that this diverse Christian faith community is a bad thing (again no hatred, violence, or coercion), as Jesus and the Bible authors had a message in mind when they spoke and wrote and it is that message they wished to convey, not the multiple divergences that have occurred since. Although there may be disagreements on the details of that original message, we at least agree on that.

The biggest challenge I see for Christians is other Christians, not those from other faiths or no faith. How do you reconcile a Catholic, evangelical Protestant and JW for example? There has been a history of violent schism between Catholics and Protestants that no one expects to be resolved. Best then to accept differences. I can’t see any movement within Christianity that is going to bring unity to the Christian Faith and remove the differences. Can you? So while many Christians are not accepting of diversity, any movement within Christianity that claims to have restored Christianity to its original pure form and exalts itself above the other Christian denominations is likely to exacerbate one of Christianity’s core problems (disunity and sectarianism).

Is this the church you are part of?

Churches of Christ - Wikipedia

Within Christianity, those who would rather assist their parishioners discover a theology that works best for them, instead of trying to help them abide by the original message are fringe groups. It may be these fringe groups who align themselves most with Baha'i principles. Within Christianity at least, leaders who conduct themselves this way are considered disobedient to the faith by many of the core groups, according to 2 Timothy 4:3. The rest of us as well want all faiths to live in peace with one another. I and my peers as well have worked with those in many faiths without prejudice, malice, or discord as all Christians are expected to do.

The church minister who assists her parishioners to find their own theology (based on the bible of course) is not from a fringe Christian group but from the Presbyterian Church, the largest denomination in my city and the third largest in my country.

Presbyterianism - Wikipedia

Religion in New Zealand - Wikipedia

The Church of Christ has a presence in New Zealand but unlike in the USA it’s numerically small.

The movements that appear to have brought a greater sense of cohesion to Christianity albeit limited are the ecumenical movements and world council of churches.

World Council of Churches - Wikipedia

 

[e.r.m.]

The biggest challenge I see for Christians is other Christians, not those from other faiths or no faith. How do you reconcile a Catholic, evangelical Protestant and JW for example? There has been a history of violent schism between Catholics and Protestants that no one expects to be resolved. Best then to accept differences. I can’t see any movement within Christianity that is going to bring unity to the Christian Faith and remove the differences. Can you? So while many Christians are not accepting of diversity, any movement within Christianity that claims to have restored Christianity to its original pure form and exalts itself above the other Christian denominations is likely to exacerbate one of Christianity’s core problems (disunity and sectarianism).

Not Paul's approach.
1 Corinthians 1:10-13 Now I exhort you, brethren, by the name of our Lord Jesus Christ, that you all agree and that there be no divisions among you, but that you be made complete in the same mind and in the same judgment. [11] For I have been informed concerning you, my brethren, by Chloe's people, that there are quarrels among you. [12] Now I mean this, that each one of you is saying, "I am of Paul," and "I of Apollos," and "I of Cephas," and "I of Christ." [13] Has Christ been divided? Paul was not crucified for you, was he? Or were you baptized in the name of Paul?

2 Timothy 4:3 for the time will come when they will not endure sound doctrine; but wanting to have their ears tickled, they will accumulate for themselves teachers in accordance to their own

Paul did not embrace this diversity, he corrected/chastised them for it. Two things that most of us agree on, we can't all be right and that there is a right and wrong. You hear terms and phrases used in the Bible as sound doctrine 2 Timothy 4:3, rightly dividing the word of God 2 Timothy 2:5, and
1 Timothy 1:3 As I urged you when I went into Macedonia-remain in Ephesus that you may charge some that they teach no other doctrine,

There is a standard and we'd rather labor to come together on this standard than give assurances that diverge from scripture.

Is this the church you are part of?

Aside from the Roman Catholic Church who claims to be the original church, I think most churches start off believing they are restoring 1st Century Christianity, as well they should. No church should knowingly start off going further away from original Christianity than their predecessor.

The church minister who assists her parishioners to find their own theology (based on the bible of course) is not from a fringe Christian group but from the Presbyterian Church, the largest denomination in my city and the third largest in my country.

Yeah Presbyterianism is a big one, in the U.S. as well, and I didn't realize they had become this inclusive.
There should never be a smugness or self righteous belief system or attitude from any Christian group toward anybody, as we are all equally subject to judgment by God. On a different note though, encouraging a person to decide upon their own truth is just against Biblical tenets, based on the above and more Bible passages. Certain passages may apply more to some than others, but the message itself doesn't change.

The Church of Christ has a presence in New Zealand but unlike in the USA it’s numerically small.

The movements that appear to have brought a greater sense of cohesion to Christianity albeit limited are the ecumenical movements and world council of churches.

I still believe in cohesion, and am glad a good measure has been achieved in New Zealand, especially in light of the recent crisis. And I'm glad of the cohesion the ecumenical movements and world council of churches have been able to foster. I can rejoice in that and still disagree with their teachings.

 

[metis]

Aside from the Roman Catholic Church who claims to be the original church, I think most churches start off believing they are restoring 1st Century Christianity, as well they should. No church should knowingly start off going further away from original Christianity than their predecessor.

All institutions change over time because of necessity to adapting to new situations, and that includes all churches and denominations. Thus, a "balancing act" of sorts is needed to allow for some change while at the same time trying to stick with the original basic teachings. It's obviously an imprecise art, thus almost any change is likely to cause a backlash, both externally and internally.

 

[e.r.m.]

All institutions change over time because of necessity to adapting to new situations, and that includes all churches and denominations. Thus, a "balancing act" of sorts is needed to allow for some change while at the same time trying to stick with the original basic teachings. It's obviously an imprecise art, thus almost any change is likely to cause a backlash, both externally and internally.

I agree. The Bible does offer a lot of flexibility and its teachings are widely applicable to all cultures, professions, personalities, etc. I think churches that have the most "rules" would be the ones with the most backlash, with any kind of change. There are also things we can disagree on without it being a real problem. But there are also things that are sacred and cannot be compromised, such who Jesus is, things like John 14:6, salvation matters, and others.

 

[metis]

I agree. The Bible does offer a lot of flexibility and its teachings are widely applicable to all cultures, professions, personalities, etc. I think churches that have the most "rules" would be the ones with the most backlash, with any kind of change. There are also things we can disagree on without it being a real problem. But there are also things that are sacred and cannot be compromised, such who Jesus is, things like John 14:6, salvation matters, and others.

Yes, and there's also the allowance of discernment in that the Catholic Church, for example, allows for us to question or even disagree with a Church teaching, although we can't do that in the context of an official teaching role. One of the best Catholic books I've read on the subject is "May Your (Informed) Conscience Be Your Guide".

IOW, the Church teaches what it thinks is more likely correct, but it's up to us as to what to do with it. An analogy is like the Church being a Roman traffic cop, and if you've ever been to Rome and seen how this plays out you'll know what I mean.

 

[sojourner]

It depends on your branch of the Christian family tree. The institutional church certainly sees it as a necessity, both from a standpoint of becoming a full member of the faith and as a priori necessary for salvation. In my own trajectory, it's a way of offering one's self up as a love sacrifice, a way of ritually being cleansed, and a way to connect with water as part of a reconnection to the earth and connection with others who have walked that way before one. Not "necessary" for "salvation," but desirable as a ritual, useful for deepening one's faith.

 

[e.r.m.]

Yes, and there's also the allowance of discernment in that the Catholic Church, for example, allows for us to question or even disagree with a Church teaching, although we can't do that in the context of an official teaching role. One of the best Catholic books I've read on the subject is "May Your (Informed) Conscience Be Your Guide".

IOW, the Church teaches what it thinks is more likely correct, but it's up to us as to what to do with it. An analogy is like the Church being a Roman traffic cop, and if you've ever been to Rome and seen how this plays out you'll know what I mean.

If I ever go to Rome, I'll keep that in mind.

 

[e.r.m.]

It depends on your branch of the Christian family tree. The institutional church certainly sees it as a necessity, both from a standpoint of becoming a full member of the faith and as a priori necessary for salvation. In my own trajectory, it's a way of offering one's self up as a love sacrifice, a way of ritually being cleansed, and a way to connect with water as part of a reconnection to the earth and connection with others who have walked that way before one. Not "necessary" for "salvation," but desirable as a ritual, useful for deepening one's faith.

Long time.

 

[e.r.m.]

Yes, and there's also the allowance of discernment in that the Catholic Church, for example, allows for us to question or even disagree with a Church teaching, although we can't do that in the context of an official teaching role. One of the best Catholic books I've read on the subject is "May Your (Informed) Conscience Be Your Guide"

IOW the Church teaches what it thinks is more likely correct, but it's up to us as to what to do with it. An analogy is like the Church being a Roman traffic cop, and if you've ever been to Rome and seen how this plays out you'll know what I mean.

In my experience in the Church of Christ, the issue of questioning church doctrine hasn't really come up. From what I've seen what is taught is pretty much accepted an internalized, and not blindly either, we study our Bibles. We have from time to time shifted our beliefs, but it all kind of happened with everyone together. My impression is that it is due in large part to there not being a "divide", if you will, from the leadership and the members. We don't see them as "the church". We are all the church, and we can easily discuss our thoughts with them and with each other. There of course have been exceptions to all this, I'm saying for the most part.

 

[Muffled]

Your start was nice and humble "I believe I am". That could have meant that you are "not one of those Christians"
But you straightaway took away any doubts saying "I am 100% certain that you are hearing the Word of God from my writing."

You also seem to be a Christian who is "Omniscient" (knows what I hear). So I will direct any questions about God, I get here, to you ... being "God Almighty" Himself

I believe the statement "I believe" is required by RF. It simply means that RF believes that no statement is a certainty.

I believe so but that isn't the same thing as omni-communicative. Read the book of revelation and you will see what I mean. My experience is that God tells me what I need to know and others have said they have the same experience so I suspect He will do the same with you.

 

[Muffled]

Didn't I say scriptures expect us to preach the word of God, acknowledge our faith in Christ if asked, and live the life? What other acknowledgement is there in the New Testament?

I believe then basically you interpret testifying of Jesus before men as only doing so before an elite and expecting the reporting of the elite to be as good as a first hand testimony. I don't buy it. It sounds like the creation of a mystery religion.

 

[Muffled]

He claimed (100% sure) to know, what I think, being thousands of miles away, never met me even once
Hence I told him that he must be omniscient.

I believe I don't always process everything that God says on here but the answer is yes, God is omniscient and knows what you are thinking. He is everywhere so distance is not a problem. Are you going to deny that you think I am in the category of one who does not speak the Word of God?

 

[e.r.m.]

I believe then basically you interpret testifying of Jesus before men as only doing so before an elite and expecting the reporting of the elite to be as good as a first hand testimony. I don't buy it. It sounds like the creation of a mystery religion.

Where you got the idea about going only to the elite, I have no idea. Even with Peter, a servant girl asked him if he was Jesus's follower, she was not an elite, and Peter was expected to acknowledge his faith in Jesus to her.
As well, we are to preach or share the gospel with all men, not just the elite. Do you see any form of testimony in the New Testament other than those mentioned in my post?
Ok, maybe 1 Corinthians 14:24, 25.