(Baptism) What it is and what it does.

[Pilgrim of this Reality]

A friend of mine has a similar view. Faith only is a common idea. It is was faith only why would Peter reply in Acts 2:38 :

Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

repentance + baptism = remission of sins.

Acts 8: 35-37

35Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

why would the traveling eunuch see water and want to be baptized immediantly if it wasn't very important? He could have waited until he got home and be baptized in a ritual bath if it was just symbolic.


John 3:16


For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

If a person believes in Jesus why would they argue with His commands?
Mark 10:37-39


They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.

38But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?

39And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:

and Jesus' direct command to the apostles:


Matthew 28:18-20


18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


If baptism was just a symbol why would Jesus emphasis it? It is a direct command by Him both by example and by word. If a person truly believes in Jesus they would do their best to learn and emulate Him in everything. We do not have the luxury to pick and choose. We cannot choose the 10 commandments as our moral guide instead of the 2 commands presented in the NT. Nor can we choose faith over baptism. We must do all of God's Will (Matthew 7:21). There is a host of baptisms found throughout the book of Acts. No where in the NT is there an example that states a person is saved before they were baptized. Taking singular verses that a part of the larger picture distorts the picture. To say belief only leads to salvation because of John 3:16 would contradict Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, etc.

 

[blueman]

A friend of mine has a similar view. Faith only is a common idea. It is was faith only why would Peter reply in Acts 2:38 :

Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.

repentance + baptism = remission of sins.

Acts 8: 35-37

35Then Philip opened his mouth, and began at the same scripture, and preached unto him Jesus. 36And as they went on their way, they came unto a certain water: and the eunuch said, See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?

37And Philip said, If thou believest with all thine heart, thou mayest. And he answered and said, I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.

why would the traveling eunuch see water and want to be baptized immediantly if it wasn't very important? He could have waited until he got home and be baptized in a ritual bath if it was just symbolic.


John 3:16


For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

If a person believes in Jesus why would they argue with His commands?
Mark 10:37-39


They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.

38But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?

39And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:

and Jesus' direct command to the apostles:


Matthew 28:18-20


18And Jesus came and spake unto them, saying, All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth.

19Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:

20Teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you: and, lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world. Amen.


If baptism was just a symbol why would Jesus emphasis it? It is a direct command by Him both by example and by word. If a person truly believes in Jesus they would do their best to learn and emulate Him in everything. We do not have the luxury to pick and choose. We cannot choose the 10 commandments as our moral guide instead of the 2 commands presented in the NT. Nor can we choose faith over baptism. We must do all of God's Will (Matthew 7:21). There is a host of baptisms found throughout the book of Acts. No where in the NT is there an example that states a person is saved before they were baptized. Taking singular verses that a part of the larger picture distorts the picture. To say belief only leads to salvation because of John 3:16 would contradict Mark 16:16, Acts 2:38, etc.

Do you think Jesus may have been emphasizing a spiritual baptism to His disciples in those scriptural passages? I have been baptized as a Chrisitian, but it was not out of a belief that I was required to do this to complete my receipt of salvation. I did it because I was honoring Christ and showing the world through this symbolism that I am united with Christ. I and other Christians receive the Spririt after we accept Christ as our personal saviour through confession of our sins and acceptance through faith (Romans 10:9,10) in our heart, not after being physically immersed in water through baptism. You really did not address any of my previous comments regarding an example of witnessing to someone who is in a gravely ill condition, and that person accepts Christ through faith and subsequently passes away. That person may have never had the opprtunity to be go through a baptisimal ceremoney. Do you believe they are still saved? We will just respectfully disagree on this issue.

 

[blueman]

Prove it. I ask you again to think about 1 Peter 3: 21, a passage that is without doubt referring to water baptism in light of verse 20.

Let me ask you an other question. Do you equate belief with spiritual baptism or not? Are they essencially the same thing as you see them?

I do not know the answer to that one. It's up to God. I would be more inclined to say that that person would still be condemned. But like I said, it isn't my choice. Perhaps there is some form of grace bestowed upon that person by God. But it doesn't matter what I think.

Absolutely. I trust God to be true to His Word in Romans 10:9,10 that by confession of mouth and faith in one's heart in Jesus's death and resurrection, that they will be saved. I will be inclined to believe, according to the Scriptures that the "Baptism of the Spirit" is what seals that person's fate in receiving everlasting life, not any requirement to be physically immersed in water.

 

[blueman]

Romans 10:9That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved. 11As the Scripture says, "Anyone who trusts in him will never be put to shame." NIV

So now I have to ask: What IS belief? Is it merely a mental acquiesence to the truth?

James 1:22Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. 23Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror 24and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. 25But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it—he will be blessed in what he does. NIV

Perhaps James is telling us what "true belief" is: action! Naamun showed trust... albeit reluctant trust. Was his trust IN the water? No... it was in God. Was he clean after the sixth dip? No... he was just as full of leprosy as he was on the first five dips. But AFTER the seventh dip, he was clean. THAT was his appeal to God. THAT was his demonstration that even in his unbelief, he did believe.

James 2:14What good is it, my brothers, if a man claims to have faith but has no deeds? Can such faith save him? 15Suppose a brother or sister is without clothes and daily food. 16If one of you says to him, "Go, I wish you well; keep warm and well fed," but does nothing about his physical needs, what good is it? 17In the same way, faith by itself, if it is not accompanied by action, is dead.


18But someone will say, "You have faith; I have deeds."
Show me your faith without deeds, and I will show you my faith by what I do. 19You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder. NIV

I am sure you don't think that these demons are going to heaven, do you?

The demons do acknowledge and know who Jesus is, but they will never conform to repenting of their sins and their will to follow Satan, nor ask Jesus to come into their heart through faith. Weak example. Also, I've already adressed the "faith without works is dead" issue previously. In regards to salvation, you are not saved by your works, lest any man should boast otherwise (reference Ephesians 2:8,9). You either believe through faith or you don't, it is that simple. If one comes to Christ through repentence and faith that Christ shed His blood, died and resurrected so that they may have everlasting life, the Bible states explicitly that they are saved. It is not for you or I to judge that fact, Christ knows their hearts.

 

[Scuba Pete]

I don't think they will be baptised either.

but they will never conform

Sounds like a "work" to me! At least by your definition.

So where do the scriptures tell us to "ask Jesus into our heart"? I have never found that and believe it to be a man made artifice... sort of like one of those "cleaner rivers" that Naamun referred to.

 

[blueman]

After what I've been saying so far, you will probably be surprised to hear my answer to this question. I absolutely, positively do not believe that such an individual would be condemned to Hell because he had not been baptized during the brief period between his conversion and his death. This is the reason that the first-century Christians performed proxy baptisms on behalf of their deceased family members.

Katzpur, good to hear from you again and I enjoyed our dialogue on this issue. Have a blessed day and I look forward to engaging in future discussions with you.

 

[blueman]

Blueman, I firstly must say that I agree with you that baptism is not necessary for salvation and I believe that we get baptised to show outwardly of what has occurred in our life and that we believe in the death and resurrection of Christ.



The scriptures that seem to indicate that baptism is necessary for salvation may be taken in the following view: Christianity was new in the world with different views than other religions. When a person converted from one religion to another they were often baptised to identify this conversion publicly, this meaning that those that did not want to publicly show their conversion did not truly believe. Peter states that baptism was not merely a ceremonial act of physical purification but the pledge of a good conscience toward God. Ephesians 2:8-9 states that "1For by grace you are saved through faith, and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, 2not of works, lest anyone should boast." This clearly shows that salvation is from faith alone. We must remember that Scripture does not contradict Scripture if it states that we are saved by faith alone then there must be another meaning to the scriptures that say otherwise.



Secondly in response to you stating that Paradise and Heaven are the same thing I must agree with Katzpurthey are not . People were not taken to Heaven until after the resurrection (except Enoch, Elijah and possibly Mosses). The bible shows that in the Old Testament people went to a place of existence called Sheol. The wicked were there and so were the righteous, however Luke 16:19-31 shows they were separated by a gulf. When Christ said to the thief that He will see him today in Paradise Christ is talking about the Paradise in the Old Testament. Ephesians 4:9-10 states that Christ descended into hell. At the resurrection of Christ the believers were brought from Paradise into Heaven.

Thanks for your insight and clarity regarding this issue.

 

[Linus]

I will be inclined to believe, according to the Scriptures that the "Baptism of the Spirit" is what seals that person's fate in receiving everlasting life.

So, are you saying that the "baptism of the Spirit" occurs at the point of belief and is what saves you? Please let me know if this is correct.

 

[glasgowchick]

Hi one and all, I believe that baptism is not a work but a command. Jesus commandment was to go into the world with the good news and those who believed where to be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit ..It is in baptism our sins are washed away, it is in baptism we put on Christ, it is in baptism we share in Christ Jesus death, burial and ressurection. it is in baptism we recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit..It is in baptism we have forgiveness of sins...It also does so much more for us but our salvation depends on us being in Christ Jesus, how do we get into Christ, through baptism...God always tells us where to go for salvation, in Noah's time it was the ark, then God said, all who looked apon the brass serpent would be saved,..Those outside the ark, persished, those who took their eyes off the serpent perished, also the passover God told them what to do for salvation the night the angel past over their house..
Since it is God who tells us where salvation is, then we should listen to him, God tells us that salvation is in his Son, we have to be in Christ and the only way into to Christ is through baptism. If we haven't been baptized we are still outside Christ, if we haven't been baptized we are still in our sins, if we are outside Christ Jesus we have no salvation..God said we have to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins and we will recieve the Gift of the Holy Spirit..Outside baptism we are still in sin, outside baptism we do not have the gift of the Holy Spirit, Outside baptism and Christ Jesus we don't have salvation. We get all this AFTER baptism not before..

 

[blueman]

Hi one and all, I believe that baptism is not a work but a command. Jesus commandment was to go into the world with the good news and those who believed where to be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit ..It is in baptism our sins are washed away, it is in baptism we put on Christ, it is in baptism we share in Christ Jesus death, burial and ressurection. it is in baptism we recieve the gift of the Holy Spirit..It is in baptism we have forgiveness of sins...It also does so much more for us but our salvation depends on us being in Christ Jesus, how do we get into Christ, through baptism...God always tells us where to go for salvation, in Noah's time it was the ark, then God said, all who looked apon the brass serpent would be saved,..Those outside the ark, persished, those who took their eyes off the serpent perished, also the passover God told them what to do for salvation the night the angel past over their house..
Since it is God who tells us where salvation is, then we should listen to him, God tells us that salvation is in his Son, we have to be in Christ and the only way into to Christ is through baptism. If we haven't been baptized we are still outside Christ, if we haven't been baptized we are still in our sins, if we are outside Christ Jesus we have no salvation..God said we have to repent and be baptized for the forgiveness of sins and we will recieve the Gift of the Holy Spirit..Outside baptism we are still in sin, outside baptism we do not have the gift of the Holy Spirit, Outside baptism and Christ Jesus we don't have salvation. We get all this AFTER baptism not before..

We will disagree on this issue. It is through baptism of our spirit that we are saved through acceptance of Jesus Christ as our Saviour, not by a physical baptism, although I agree that all Christians should be baptized in water as a way of honoring Christ and showing that their has been an inward change in your life. Some individuals, as I have clearly stated before, will accept Christ and for whatever reason, will not formally go through the process of being immeresed in water. It is God's grace and forgiveness that cleanses sin (He paid for that debt on the cross), not the physical immersion in water, which is a symbolism of our repentance and cruxifiction of ourselves and the resurrection of the new man in Christ. Romans 10:9,10 clearly states the requirement for salvation and those, for whatever who accept this through faith and confess with their mouth will be saved.

 

[blueman]

So, are you saying that the "baptism of the Spirit" occurs at the point of belief and is what saves you? Please let me know if this is correct.

I think I've been clear. What does Romans 10:9,10 say?

 

[glasgowchick]

Hi Blueman, Scripture could not be any clearer when it says "repent and be baptized" and you shall be saved..2+2=4, you will never have four if you take either two away..Its like a resturaunt sign that says, "diners must wear shirt and tie" to be served, those who don't have a tie will not be served..would you expect to be served if you didn't have on both requirements, shirt and tie ? [ trousers of course aswell ]..Or say your going for your car tax disc, you would need 3 documents before you can get your disc, if you turned up with two when it states 3 proofs would you get your disc? If God is telling you how to be saved by saying repent and be baptized and you will be saved, be baptized for the forgiveness of sins..how can anyone teach they are saved when they believed. This is not what the Bible says..the Bible says we need to be baptized for the forgiveness of sins, it is through this cleansing the Blood of Christ is applied..To ignore these commandment is to ignore the Authority Of God. You Can't take one Scripture and make it stand on its own, we call on the name of the Lord when we are baptized..It is in Baptism the Lord adds us to His Church..All the conversions in Acts, they heard the word, the believed and they were baptized there and then..

 

[Scuba Pete]

When a Greek scholar (Jerry Jones) was asked what John 3:5 ACTUALLY meant, he said without any undue thought "peanut butter".

Peanut butter?!?! How could you possibly get peanut butter out of that?

I can't, but that's not going to stop someone from claiming it means something it doesn't say.

This is not "two acts" as some would claim... just one. One that involves the water and the Spirit: baptism.

It is in the "act" of baptism that our hearts are embued with the Spirit of Jesus (Acts 2:38-39).

You CAN'T find a single scripture that indicates we should pray Jesus into our hearts for salvation. Romans 10 does not support this contention one bit. In fact, the biblical concept of "belief" is far removed from mere mental assent and that is born out completely in James.

So for those who have a hard time accepting baptism as a part of salvation, I would suggest that you work on your humility towards Jesus and God.

Of course, I suggest that to most people, and especially to myself!

But one thing I am certain of: It ain't peanut butter!

 

[glasgowchick]

Hi Netdoc, so do you want peanut butter or what LOL!!!!!!!!!. Well said doc, I'm 100% with you on baptism...

 

[blueman]

When a Greek scholar (Jerry Jones) was asked what John 3:5 ACTUALLY meant, he said without any undue thought "peanut butter".

Peanut butter?!?! How could you possibly get peanut butter out of that?

I can't, but that's not going to stop someone from claiming it means something it doesn't say.

This is not "two acts" as some would claim... just one. One that involves the water and the Spirit: baptism.

It is in the "act" of baptism that our hearts are embued with the Spirit of Jesus (Acts 2:38-39).

You CAN'T find a single scripture that indicates we should pray Jesus into our hearts for salvation. Romans 10 does not support this contention one bit. In fact, the biblical concept of "belief" is far removed from mere mental assent and that is born out completely in James.

So for those who have a hard time accepting baptism as a part of salvation, I would suggest that you work on your humility towards Jesus and God.

Of course, I suggest that to most people, and especially to myself!

But one thing I am certain of: It ain't peanut butter!

I respect your belief system and your opinion. I have spoke my peace on this issue and one thing we can agree on is that we are all one body in Christ and secondly, that we will never see eye-to-eye on this issue. Have a blessed day.

 

[Scuba Pete]

As I respect your beliefs.

But please, if you think of another point, or wish to address any of my points or questions, I would hope you would do so!

Proverbs 27:17 As iron sharpens iron, so one man sharpens another. NIV

You reminded me of one of my favorite scriptures... one that puts baptism on par with our Lord and our faith:

Ephesians 4:2 Be completely humble and gentle; be patient, bearing with one another in love. 3 Make every effort to keep the unity of the Spirit through the bond of peace. 4 There is one body and one Spirit—just as you were called to one hope when you were called— 5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism; 6 one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. NIV

 

[glasgowchick]

Hi Doc, hope you don't mind me calling you doc, ok I wanted to give you furbels but I gave you some before [ if it worked ] I wanted to give you some more but it said I had to spread some Karma around before I gave more what's that? thank you..

 

[Scuba Pete]

Many call me "Doc"... but I am not a medical doctor. I fix sick networks! Feel free to call me that. You can even ask me for that "second opinion", but you may not like it!

I spread frubals freely... and the system encourages you to do so! BTW, the more frubals you get and the longer you are here, the more frubals you get to give. I get to give just shy of a hundred. There are SO MANY great and wonderful people on this board and most of them deserve frubals. Like the person who started this thread! What a wonderful thread it has been!

 

[Linus]

I think I've been clear. What does Romans 10:9,10 say?

I'd like you first to tell me about 1 Peter 3: 20-21. I've asked you about it several times now and you've said almost nothing so far.

Also, I'd like you to cionsider Acts 19: 1-6

1 It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples.
2 He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."
3 And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism."
4 Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus."
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.

 

[blueman]

I'd like you first to tell me about 1 Peter 3: 20-21. I've asked you about it several times now and you've said almost nothing so far.

Also, I'd like you to cionsider Acts 19: 1-6

1 It happened that while Apollos was at Corinth, Paul passed through the upper country and came to Ephesus, and found some disciples.
2 He said to them, "Did you receive the Holy Spirit when you believed?" And they said to him, "No, we have not even heard whether there is a Holy Spirit."
3 And he said, "Into what then were you baptized?" And they said, "Into John's baptism."
4 Paul said, "John baptized with the baptism of repentance, telling the people to believe in Him who was coming after him, that is, in Jesus."
5 When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.
6 And when Paul had laid his hands upon them, the Holy Spirit came on them, and they began speaking with tongues and prophesying.

Linus, I respect your opinion, and oh by the way I did comment on 1 Peter 3:20,21 in a previous response. I have spoke my peace on this issue and its not going to change. Have a great day.