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Baptism?
- Thread starter Ryan2065
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BUDDY
User of Aspercreme
Scott, I have always respected you and your Chruch, but with all due respect, I have to disagree with this. As someone who believes that belief, confession and repentance are needed prior to baptism, I don't think that a child, who has no understanding of right or wrong needs baptism. Since it is sin that corupts (and I don't believe in original sin either) a child that is sinless and without blemish, need not be baptised. Also, how can a child with no ability to understand biblical principals, repent, confess or even believe? Again, I respect you view on this matter, and I don't think it is sinful to do it, but I don't think it is necessary either. Peace.Scott1 said:
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
Acts 17:22 Paul then stood up in the meeting of the Areopagus and said: "Men of Athens! I see that in every way you are very religious. 23 For as I walked around and looked carefully at your objects of worship, I even found an altar with this inscription: TO AN UNKNOWN GOD. Now what you worship as something unknown I am going to proclaim to you. NIV
Paul never condemned them for their "graven images"... he just used it to preach the word.
Paul never condemned them for their "graven images"... he just used it to preach the word.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
EEWRED,EEWRED said:Scott, I have always respected you and your Chruch, but with all due respect, I have to disagree with this. As someone who believes that belief, confession and repentance are needed prior to baptism, I don't think that a child, who has no understanding of right or wrong needs baptism. Since it is sin that corupts (and I don't believe in original sin either) a child that is sinless and without blemish, need not be baptised. Also, how can a child with no ability to understand biblical principals, repent, confess or even believe? Again, I respect you view on this matter, and I don't think it is sinful to do it, but I don't think it is necessary either. Peace.
I'm kind of surprised that you don't believe in original sin. I thought Mormons were the only Christians who rejected this doctrine. Does this mean you believe that (1) Adam and Eve never ate of the forbidden fruit (i.e. that the events described in Genesis never actually happened), (2) that they did eat the forbidden fruit, but since they didn't know right from wrong until afterwards, it wasn't really a sin, (3) Jesus Christ's sacrifice atoned for that sin, so that we would not be accountable for it, or (4) some other reasoning I haven't thought of?
I'd be interested in hearing your thoughts.
Kathryn
I am not EEWRED, but would it be ok for me to expound upon my beliefs on the matter?
Doesn't matter it's going to happen anyways
I believe that Adam and Eve at the fruit, and that it was a sin, as it was a direct disobeyance of God's command. However I do not believe that the Lord then put sin on every man's tablet so to speak as a result of the action. I believe that we all make our own choices and that our sins are that which are wiped away on baptism(of spirit and fire).
I also believe in an age of accountability, which again would negate any "original sin".(Note: Age of accountability has Biblical precedent)
i agree with that.NetDoc said:Oh, I listen to THE church, Victor. Just not yours.
So May, your points are strong:
Disciples (believers) were being baptized. None others need apply. It would be hard, by any stretch of the imagination, to assume that an infant was already a disciple.
Mister Emu said:I am not EEWRED, but would it be ok for me to expound upon my beliefs on the matter?
Doesn't matter it's going to happen anyways
I believe that Adam and Eve at the fruit, and that it was a sin, as it was a direct disobeyance of God's command. However I do not believe that the Lord then put sin on every man's tablet so to speak as a result of the action. I believe that we all make our own choices and that our sins are that which are wiped away on baptism(of spirit and fire).
I also believe in an age of accountability, which again would negate any "original sin".(Note: Age of accountability has Biblical precedent)
That is why, just as through one man (Adam)sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned...romans 5;12so we can disregard this verse then?sorry now i am butting in
No, what gave you that idea?
Maybe I should clarify if this is how my post seemed.
I believe that sin entered the world through Adam & Eve and the fruit. This however does not presuppose that man is born a sinner. We all have a choice on whether or not to sin.
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
The churches of Christ most emphatically reject the concept of "original sin". You can't find it in the Scriptures, and you can even find contradictory evidence to it.
What it means is that we are not burdened with Eve's sin. Or with Adam's.
Ezekial 18:19 "Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? NIV
What it means is that we are not burdened with Eve's sin. Or with Adam's.
Ezekial 18:19 "Yet you ask, 'Why does the son not share the guilt of his father?' Since the son has done what is just and right and has been careful to keep all my decrees, he will surely live. 20 The soul who sins is the one who will die. The son will not share the guilt of the father, nor will the father share the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous man will be credited to him, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against him.
21 "But if a wicked man turns away from all the sins he has committed and keeps all my decrees and does what is just and right, he will surely live; he will not die. 22 None of the offenses he has committed will be remembered against him. Because of the righteous things he has done, he will live. 23 Do I take any pleasure in the death of the wicked? declares the Sovereign LORD. Rather, am I not pleased when they turn from their ways and live? NIV
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
I am really surprised. I honestly thought that only Mormons rejected this doctrine. I'm really pleased to see that we have some company.Mister Emu said:I am not EEWRED, but would it be ok for me to expound upon my beliefs on the matter?
Doesn't matter it's going to happen anyways
I believe that Adam and Eve at the fruit, and that it was a sin, as it was a direct disobeyance of God's command. However I do not believe that the Lord then put sin on every man's tablet so to speak as a result of the action. I believe that we all make our own choices and that our sins are that which are wiped away on baptism(of spirit and fire).
I also believe in an age of accountability, which again would negate any "original sin".(Note: Age of accountability has Biblical precedent)
I agree with pretty much everything you've said. The only place where I differ (and it's pretty minor) is that we generally use the word "trangression" to describe Adam's and Eve's choice to eat the forbidden fruit. They were being disobedient in doing so, but since they did not, at that time, have any knowledge of the difference between good and evil, their disobedience was not actually sinful (in the same respect that future disobedience to God's laws would have been).
Scott1
Well-Known Member
Friends can disagree.EEWRED said:
OK... again, do what works for you. I just think it's rather Gnostic in thinking... like you have to be "smart enough" to accept Christ.... I am saved by the grace of God, not my own works or INTELLIGENCE. God saved me, a sinner, because he loved me... not because of anything I did.
If a baby is without sin or original sin... why will EVERY human sin? Don't you think that at least ONE baby born today would have the environment to grow up in a Christian home and commit no personal sin? In the entire world, there is no safe place to raise a child... there are no good parents???
Hmmmm babies don't have sin.... but all will grow up and sin. Must be the parenting, right? Better get that millstone ready.
Thanks for offering your opinion is such a charitable manner.... you are a credit to your faith..... but like I said before: I AM SAVED BY GRACE. Christ saved me... not my knowledge of Christ.
What about all of the mentally challenged folks in the world today? Many of them don't have the ability to understand biblical principals, repent, confess or even believe.... I guess they will all go to hell, right?
Looking forward to hearing your reply.
Peace in Christ,
Scott
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
Oh, I don't know Scott... everyone sins, but we are not born with sin. If any man could have made it to heaven then Jesus would not have had to die on the cross.
Romans 3:21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24a nd are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished 26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. NIV
The scripture didn't say all were born with sin (that was actually an epithet back then), but that all have sinned, meaning they commited a sin.
Romans 3:21 But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. 22 This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24a nd are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus. 25 God presented him as a sacrifice of atonement, through faith in his blood. He did this to demonstrate his justice, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished 26 he did it to demonstrate his justice at the present time, so as to be just and the one who justifies those who have faith in Jesus. NIV
The scripture didn't say all were born with sin (that was actually an epithet back then), but that all have sinned, meaning they commited a sin.
Quiddity
UndertheInfluenceofGiants
I must confess ND, that I hesistate to give you bible verses at times because I say to myself "he's just gonna interpret it differently and then we will never agree". Nevertheless I will do what I can to explain. Here is some verses that can show original sin:
"Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned . . . Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift in the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the effect of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brings justification. If, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous" ;(Rom. 5:12-19).
Here is another one:
"But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ" (1 Cor. 15:21-23).
How come we had to die cause of Adam and Eve? That's not fair..
I hope you see my point.
The Least
~Victor
"Therefore as sin came into the world through one man and death through sin, and so death spread to all men because all men sinned . . . Yet death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over those whose sins were not like the transgression of Adam, who was a type of the one who was to come. But the free gift is not like the trespass. For if many died through one man's trespass, much more have the grace of God and the free gift in the grace of that one man Jesus Christ abounded for many. And the free gift is not like the effect of that one man's sin. For the judgment following one trespass brought condemnation, but the free gift following many trespasses brings justification. If, because of one man's trespass, death reigned through that one man, much more will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness reign in life through the one man Jesus Christ. Then as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all men, so one man's act of righteousness leads to acquittal and life for all men. For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by one man's obedience many will be made righteous" ;(Rom. 5:12-19).
Here is another one:
"But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the first fruits of those who have fallen asleep. For as by a man came death, by a man has come also the resurrection of the dead. For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. But each in his own order: Christ the first fruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ" (1 Cor. 15:21-23).
How come we had to die cause of Adam and Eve? That's not fair..
I hope you see my point.
The Least
~Victor
Because if Adam and Eve had not eaten the fruit, humanity would not be able to sin.How come we had to die cause of Adam and Eve? That's not fair..
I hope you see my point.
Scuba Pete
Le plongeur avec attitude...
Adam indeed introduced sin into the world... I have seemed to have perfected it!
That he brought spiritual death to us does not mean that we inherit his sin. Re-read the first line of the first scripture you quoted:
and so death spread to all men because all men sinned
If someone were to break the chain, then Jesus would not have had to die. But die he did, hallelujah.
That he brought spiritual death to us does not mean that we inherit his sin. Re-read the first line of the first scripture you quoted:
and so death spread to all men because all men sinned
If someone were to break the chain, then Jesus would not have had to die. But die he did, hallelujah.
BUDDY
User of Aspercreme
By Adams action, which apposed the law of God, sin originated int he world and mans seperation from God, by sin, began. On this I think we can agree. But, that does not mean, as I read the scriptures, that everyone that is born inherits that sin. They only inherit the ability to sin, or I should say, the inability to serve God perfectly. That is how I see it anyway. Once a person reaches an age that they recognize there inability to serve God perfectly, keep his commands perfectly, opr serve His church perfectly, that is when they need to be baptised. I don't think that we are born into this world completely depraved. I don't see a newborn baby as a sinful creature.Scott1 said:
Well, what is sin? If sin is the action or inaction that God sees as wrong, how can a baby or someone with the mind of a baby, commit such when they can't understand what God sees as wrong. Would a just God punish those who have committed sin the same way as those who have not? I think these are the questions we must ask ourselves.Scott1 said:Hmmmm babies don't have sin.... but all will grow up and sin. Must be the parenting, right? Better get that millstone ready.
You hit the nail on the head!!Scott1 said:
Mental capacity and understanding is the key to this whole discussion. If someone does not have the mental capacity to understand and know what is right from what is wrong, then they can't be judged for it, can they? Points to ponder I guess, but I don't think so.Bottom line is, I believe that we are born nto this world without blemish. As we learn and grow, it is the sin of the world that corrupts us and causes us to sin. It is at this point, when our once perfect souls have been corrupted by sin, that we must recognize our seperation from God, believe that His son provides a way to defeat sin, repent from our sinful lives, confess with our mouths the name of Jesus, and then be baptised. This, would exclude children and the child like. BTW, my sincere apology if the above comes across as preaching.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
As an afterthought...Scott1 said:
The Bible says, "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned." You have covered the baptism part for your children, assuring that Satan will not "get a headstart." But what do you believe would happen to one of your children if, heaven forbid, he or she were to die at, say, 18 months of age? Since Jesus required not only baptism but a belief in Jesus Christ for us to be saved, do you think that child would be damned? Dumb question, I know. I'm pretty confident that you don't believe such a child would be damned. But what I fail to understand is how baptism without the belief is going to serve the purpose you intend it to.