baptism

[Katzpur]

Children do not need the affirmation that grace is available to their little souls?

Please understand, sojourner, that it is not my intention to show any disrespect. I just see this from a completely different perspective. In my opinion, it is impossible for a child to receive affirmation of something he is not cognizant of.

They do not need to be made "part of the family?"

I don't see them needing to be made part of the family because they were a part of the family (I'm speaking of "God's family," as I assume you are, as well) from the moment of birth. They only need to be accepted back into the family if they have strayed from it. I see a child as leaving the family as soon as he or she is old enough to understand what it means to disobey God's commandments (i.e. to sin) and chooses in any way to do so. I see baptism as the means by which that child (or adult, as the case may be) expresses the desire to once again be a part of the family. Once he has repented of his sins, he is free to receive "baptism of repentence for the remission of sins." At that point, he enters into a covenant relationship with his Savior, in which he promises to do his best to be obedient in the future. As a result of that covenant, he has the assurance that, with continual repentence, He will be justified before God.

It has benefit, in that the stories are told and become part of the child's history -- "where I came from."

To me, that part of the child's history would be much more meaningful if he knew that it came about as a result of his own choice.

There is no "advantage" in baptism. It is an act of obedience, but the act does not bring us salvation, for salvation is already ours.

It would be an act of obedience if the person who received it had the choice as to whether or not to participate.

That is how baptism is an outward sign. There is value, in that we are ritualistically complying with the requirements of the tribe. It's a sign to us and to the tribe that we are in compliance.

Or at least that our parents are.

When you witness a baptism, what does the act of the baptism inform you of?

It informs me that the individual being baptised has acknowledged his need for the Atonement of Jesus Christ and has made the decision to try to follow His Savior throughout the rest of his life.

What do you see happening?

I see the person as having an awareness of the miracle of forgiveness and as having faith in God's love.

What kind of knowledge do you gain by witnessing the act?

To me, it's a reminder of the day I experienced this wonderful event myself.

 

[Bishka]

I'm curious to those who say we don't need to be baptized.

Jesus Christ was baptized, was He not? He didn't need to be, but He was, so why shouldn't we?

 

[athanasius]

I'm curious to those who say we don't need to be baptized.

Jesus Christ was baptized, was He not? He didn't need to be, but He was, so why shouldn't we?

Excellent Point! Bravo!

 

[Lindsey-Loo]

That we are saved by grace and not by our own devices is one of the very basic tenets of the faith. Is the water magical? Can the actions of a priest create God's salvation? Can our participation in an event but us a ticket? Can "proper belief" wipe out our sins? No. It is the grace of Christ that has put our sin in remission and reconciled us to God. Baptism is the outward sign of that grace at work in us.

If we "have" to do anything, it is to recognize our changed nature, accept it, and turn from our former selves to live our new life as part of the Body of Christ.

Someone could hold out a dollar to you, and tell you that it's free, but you have to come and get it. Same thing with salvation. It is a gift from God, but we still have to do something to get it. Not earn it, mind you, but there are still certain requirements to get the gift.

 

[athanasius]

Someone could hold out a dollar to you, and tell you that it's free, but you have to come and get it. Same thing with salvation. It is a gift from God, but we still have to do something to get it. Not earn it, mind you, but there are still certain requirements to get the gift.

Another good point!

 

[Katzpur]

Another good point!

I thought it was a good point, too, as far as it went. But when somebody says (and I'm not saying that smoky said this, because she didn't) that salvation is a "free gift" and that we don't have to "do" anything to receive it, all we have to "do" is believe, it makes me crazy. Since when is believing not "doing" something? The only Christian I'm aware of on RF who truly believes in salvation by grace alone is Sojourner. The rest of us (Catholics, Protestants, Mormons) believe that we have to do something. It's what that something is that we disagree on.

 

[athanasius]

I thought it was a good point, too, as far as it went. But when somebody says (and I'm not saying that smoky said this, because she didn't) that salvation is a "free gift" and that we don't have to "do" anything to receive it, all we have to "do" is believe, it makes me crazy. Since when is believing not "doing" something? The only Christian I'm aware of on RF who truly believes in salvation by grace alone is Sojourner. The rest of us (Catholics, Protestants, Mormons) believe that we have to do something. It's what that something is that we disagree on.

Well said as always my good friend! Although we Catholics do teach Salvation by Gods grace alone but we do not teach salvation by faith alone.

 

[Katzpur]

Well said as always my good friend! Although we Catholics do teach Salvation by Gods grace alone but we do not teach salvation by faith alone.

I think it would be an accurate statement to say that that's what we Latter-day Saints teach, too -- even though I didn't do a very good job of saying so in my last post. We don't believe that there is anything in the world we could do to save ourselves. Without the Atonement of Jesus Christ, none of us would be saved, not our Prophet or your Pope. We believe that God expects us to have faith in our Savior, to repent of our sins, and to do our best to obey His commandments, but in the end, it is by grace that we are saved. Pretty similar, huh?

 

[athanasius]

I think it would be an accurate statement to say that that's what we Latter-day Saints teach, too -- even though I didn't do a very good job of saying so in my last post. We don't believe that there is anything in the world we could do to save ourselves. Without the Atonement of Jesus Christ, none of us would be saved, not our Prophet or your Pope. We believe that God expects us to have faith in our Savior, to repent of our sins, and to do our best to obey His commandments, but in the end, it is by grace that we are saved. Pretty similar, huh?

Indeed!:yes:

Always good talking to you Katz!

 

[sojourner]

Someone could hold out a dollar to you, and tell you that it's free, but you have to come and get it. Same thing with salvation. It is a gift from God, but we still have to do something to get it. Not earn it, mind you, but there are still certain requirements to get the gift.

Or...they could slip it into our wallets while we weren't looking. There is no proviso on grace. Grace has already been effected for humanity. We ahve already been made acceptable to God through the Christ event. The point is just this: What is our response to that? If we perceive that we have been given this gift, and if we perceive that we are now fully reconciled to God, how should we act? What should we do? we should live as if we are reconciled, shouldn't we? Being obedient to baptism is part of that, and (as Katz answered to my previous question of "what do you see when someone is baptized) since baptism is an outward sign of our commitment to live as reconciled people, it bcomes extremely important to other members of the community, as well.

 

[jmaster78]

Baptising a child is pointless to me, as other members have pointed out, the child is too young to comprehend what it means, as for the parents acting on the childs behalf, only the person themself can ask for G-Ds blessing. therefore no-one should be baptised until they want to take that step, regardless of their age. if you feel love for G-D at the age of 10 then get baptised at ten, if you don't feel G-Ds love until your 100 then don't get baptised until your 100. but batism before you feel love for G-D is like saying ' i don't really believe but i better get baptised just incase i die tomorrow' if you don't feel love for G-D in your heart then its just a waste of holy water!

 

[Scuba Pete]

Baptism is a wonderful mystery.

It's God's way of demanding humility from us. It's really impossible to understand HOW it works so it befuddles those who rely on logic. You can't merely deduce it from the world around us, so it doesn't let us rely on "just feelings" either. Someone else has to baptise you, and they are not the ones who make you clean, so we can't rely on our "works".

It is truly an act of faith, and without faith it is impossible to see God.

Now, if it is someone else making the decision FOR YOU, how is it an act of faith on your part? It's not and means nothing in the long run.

 

[e.r.m.]

why are christian children baptised at a young age, when even jesus went to be baptised by john as an adult? should people be baptised more than once?

peace

I read somewhere that a long time ago a debate was underway as to when people should get baptized. Some said people should get baptized as a baby to to get rid of original sin. Others thought it best to get baptized at an old age when they could no longer commit mortal sins. Neither of them made sense according to first century baptisms. It seems the baby baptism eventually won out.

I agree with the Anabaptists who had baptized adults who had originally been baptized as infants, because they considered infant baptisms of no biblical significance.

 

[Oak of Justice]

As the word says ; Go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father the Son and the Holy Spirit, and teach them to carry out everything I commanded you.

Being baptized in the name of God is described in the last part of that verse, which is to carry out everything God has commanded.

Remember(JN)"No one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born from above. No one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and Spirit. Flesh makes flesh, spirit makes spirit."

The word of the Lord is spirit and life.

Prov); My son, pay attention to my words, incline your ear to my sayings ;
Don’t let them slip out of your sight, keep them within your heart;
For they are life to those who find them, to man's whole being they are health.