Basis of all morality on selfishness?

[rojse]

If the country with the allow rape laws existed, there would be selfish reasons to create a relationship not merely based on sex. You might create a relationship so that sex would be more enjoyable, because the partner was more responsive and reactive. Or you might want the associated intimate relationship, and not oly consider the sexual aspect of a relationship. You might do it because your social group does not consider that behaviour appropriate, even though it might be legal.

 

[Runt]

If the country with the allow rape laws existed, there would be selfish reasons to create a relationship not merely based on sex. You might create a relationship so that sex would be more enjoyable, because the partner was more responsive and reactive. Or you might want the associated intimate relationship, and not oly consider the sexual aspect of a relationship. You might do it because your social group does not consider that behaviour appropriate, even though it might be legal.

Yes, but if the most selfish way to go about achieving a goal is to aggregate various goals into one conglomerate, then we might as well start aggregating all goals (sex, great-sex, intimate relationships, love, happiness, success, wealth, etc etc etc) into one. How do you go about living in such a way as to simultaneously take each and every selfish desire into consideration before acting on your desires? It's impossible; you'd spend your entire existence trying to think of the most disgustingly self-interested way to go about achieving any given action, and you'd never act.

 

[eudaimonia]

You assume that an individual who wants sex also wants a relationship.

I assume no such thing. I don't care what he wants. I do not define self-interest in terms of whatever people happen to desire. That was my point.

if the "selfish rapist" is to incorporate every single "selfish aim" into one conglomerate goal, he is going to be spending his entire life planning how to take over the world so that he might "morally" have sex...

No, he would simply have sex in a way consistent with his overall life plan and system of values.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Runt]

I assume no such thing. I don't care what he wants. I do not define self-interest in terms of whatever people happen to desire. That was my point.



No, he would simply have sex in a way consistent with his overall life plan and system of values.


eudaimonia,

Mark

You are ignoring or trying to manipulate the meaning of the words "selfish" and "self-interested" in order to try to win the argument.

YOU may not care what a self-interested individual wants or desires, but that doesn't mean that personal interests and wants/desires aren't central to the term.

Selfish: devoted to or caring only for oneself; concerned primarily with one's own interests, benefits, welfare, etc., regardless of others

I.E. the self-interested (selfish) individual cares only for his own wants, desires and interests. This may indeed include long-term goals and a system of values, but it doesn't remove wants/desires from the picture.

Also, I'm a little skeptical of your argument that a moral system based on selfishness includes---and is actually guided/restricted by---a system of values other than self-interested motivation. This would seem to imply that it is the underlying system of values and not the selfish way of addressing them that is the source of morality...

 

[rojse]

The selfish person cares about what he or she must do to obtain their goals, and their goals only, and how to go about this.

 

[Runt]

The selfish person cares about what he or she must do to obtain their goals, and their goals only, and how to go about this.

Yes, and if the selfish person's goal is to get sex---sex now, with minimal effort, not next month after a long courtship---how do you think he, whose values are based upon nothing more than selfishness, is going to go about getting the sex he wants? He has no cause to think that rape is wrong; in a system of morality governed by selfishness, the rights and wants of others do not matter except when they affect the wants and goals of oneself.

 

[eudaimonia]

You are ignoring or trying to manipulate the meaning of the words "selfish" and "self-interested" in order to try to win the argument.

No, I am not. I'm revealing that it may have meanings and implications that are not the ones you are familiar with. Dictionaries are usually terrible for defining words for the purpose of philosophical discussions, but even the dictionary definition you presented used the word "welfare", which fits neatly into what I was saying about needs.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[rojse]

Yes, and if the selfish person's goal is to get sex---sex now, with minimal effort, not next month after a long courtship---how do you think he, whose values are based upon nothing more than selfishness, is going to go about getting the sex he wants? He has no cause to think that rape is wrong; in a system of morality governed by selfishness, the rights and wants of others do not matter except when they affect the wants and goals of oneself.

The person's goal may just be the act of sex itself, so following the laws, no matter how ethically dubious, may be right for this person.

But there are other factors involved, not merely related to the single act that defines sex. Perhaps there is a social stigma attached to forced rape, despite the fact that it is legal, so although he has the goal of sex, he may also have goals of maintaining social networks, and so forth. Perhaps this hypothetical man does not want an unresponsive partner while having sex, so maintaining a relationship is more beneficial for this man because he gets more out of the sexual act from a partner. Perhaps there are other obligations that this man has, after committing this act - perhaps he has to feed and clothe the woman for a week, and pay her money if she falls pregnant. All of this reasoning is purely selfish, but requires more than a "do what I tell you, and I get what I want" so that this man truly does gets what he wants.

Although I disagree with the selfishness is the basis of morality philosophy, in this case, I can see that it can be applied in this situation.

 

[eudaimonia]

Instead of depending on dictionary definitions, it may be helpful to read this Wikipedia article:

Ethical Egoism

You'll note that it is exactly on subject:

"Ethical egoism is the normative ethical position that moral agents ought to do what is in their own self-interest."


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[Runt]

The person's goal may just be the act of sex itself, so following the laws, no matter how ethically dubious, may be right for this person.

That's precisely the point. What happens when the laws fail to protect individuals from others' selfish behavior? What happens when there is no law proscribing rape? Is the self-interested person who wants sex and decides to rape someone to get it acting morally? According to the model in which self-interest governs morality, it is. Yet I can think of very few people who would agree that it is okay---let alone moral---to rape another human being.

But there are other factors involved, not merely related to the single act that defines sex. Perhaps there is a social stigma attached to forced rape, despite the fact that it is legal, so although he has the goal of sex, he may also have goals of maintaining social networks, and so forth.

Once again, this would suggest that morals are to be found in the laws and customs which restrict self-interested behavior, and not in self-interested behavior itself.

Perhaps this hypothetical man does not want an unresponsive partner while having sex, so maintaining a relationship is more beneficial for this man because he gets more out of the sexual act from a partner. Perhaps there are other obligations that this man has, after committing this act - perhaps he has to feed and clothe the woman for a week, and pay her money if she falls pregnant. All of this reasoning is purely selfish, but requires more than a "do what I tell you, and I get what I want" so that this man truly does gets what he wants.

And perhaps this man does not want a willing partner. Perhaps this man wants a quick gratification of his urges with a screaming and struggling woman. Perhaps it is the violence of the act---his victim's terror---which is at the core of his self-interested behavior, and not a desire for intimacy or a relationship. If no laws or social norms exist to restrain this man's self-interested behavior, would you call it moral?

If a system of morality based on self-interest is going to work, it has to work in all situations, not only in ones in which society's customs, taboos and laws work to restrict self-interested behavior. Otherwise, once again, morality is to be found in customs, taboos and laws, not in the behavior they restrict.

 

[Scarlett Wampus]

I guess much depends on what your sense of self identifies itself with. Me, I'm a bunch of atoms. We find protons exciting so we're trying to find a way to hurl ourselves into the sun.

 

[michel]

I am going to state - selfishly - that you guys are looking at your navels through your own navels.............

 

[harleydavidson]

to isaax,hi ,morality has always been a good question. First we must look to definitions,,what is morality ,and ethics? Our good friend Webster defines ethics as rules of conduct. So ethics [,morality ] is how shld people act.I wld say that people shld act for the highest values,wldn't you agree? In your senario when people act for selfish reasons are they acting for the highest reasons or values? In your senario you have imposed too great a limit on yourself. If you want money,you cld steal it ,,but then again you cld educate youself ,get a higher paying job and go that route.If you want sex ,you cld go to a prostitute and pay for it ,thereby hurting no one. See I don't believe that selfishness is the greatest motivator. There are a lot of ethical rules you are ignoring,how about the greatest good for the greatest number? isn't that better than selfishness? How about do no harm,doesn't that speak to you?,,how about do unto others..? your view toward selfishness takes too narrow a view ,you need to read more on ethics......Harley davidson