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Basis of Belief

What is the basis or foundation of your beliefs?

  • Experiential

    Votes: 16 33.3%
  • Scriptural

    Votes: 5 10.4%
  • Dogmatic

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Evidential

    Votes: 18 37.5%
  • Something else (elaborate below)

    Votes: 9 18.8%

  • Total voters
    48

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
"Come home: enter into my Kingdom."​

No need to do that. I am happy where I am.

In his kingdom there's no more tears, no more pain, no more death. Is that the case with where you are now? And if not, is that preferable to no tears, no pain, and no death, so far as you're concerned?

Who is this unfair judge who knowingly punishes the right and absolves the wrong? I do not believe in pardoning the wrong just because they have (to put it mildly) acknowledged the judge. The judge should immediately be fired.

It's not that they've acknowledged the judge. It's that they've acknowledged the one who offered himself up in their stead to the judge.

We can imagine the judge thinking it's pathetic that this innocent man would offer himself up for a world of sinners. But by God, he's not going to condemn those who at least acknowledge the innocent one's sacrifice even if, on the other hand, he feels compelled to turn the crock pot or kettle to its highest setting for those who even though the innocent one sacrificed himself in their place, say thanks but no thanks I'll stand before the judge on my own merits.



John
 
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Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
In his kingdom there's no more tears, no more pain, no more death.
:D You are welcome to wallow in your beliefs; Adam, flood, virgin birth and resurrection, walking on water, raising the dead, feeding the 5000, et all. I am an Advaitist Hindu. For me there is no God, no soul. no creation, no birth, no death, no heaven, no hell, no end of days and no judgment.

"na me mṛtyuśaṅkā na me jātibhedaḥ, pitā naiva me naiva mātā na janmaḥ;
na bandhur na mitraṃ gururnaiva śişyaḥ, cidānandarūpaḥ śivo'ham śivo'ham."

I have no fear of death, nor have I discrimination on the basis of birth, I have no father or mother, nor did I have a birth;
I am not the relative, nor the friend, nor the guru, nor the disciple. I am a form of eternal bliss, I am the auspicious, indeed, I am the auspicious.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atma_Shatkam ('Six Verses to Enlightenment', The first Sankaracharya 800 CE)
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
"na me mṛtyuśaṅkā na me jātibhedaḥ, pitā naiva me naiva mātā na janmaḥ;
na bandhur na mitraṃ gururnaiva śişyaḥ, cidānandarūpaḥ śivo'ham śivo'ham."

I have no fear of death, nor have I discrimination on the basis of birth, I have no father or mother, nor did I have a birth; I am not the relative, nor the friend, nor the guru, nor the disciple. I am a form of eternal bliss, I am the auspicious, indeed, I am the auspicious.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atma_Shatkam ('Six Verses to Enlightenment', The first Sankaracharya 800 CE)

I mean no disrespect by saying the quoted verses sound like they've been plagiarized more than once in the lyrics of a rap song or two.

Not bad meaning bad, but I’m bad meaning good
Say my name three times, and you knock on wood
I snatch food from the mouth of a tiger
Take a gasoline bath, and I walk through fire
Bear hug a grizzly, suck milk from her titty
Spit in a crocodiles face, have a menage a trois with two female apes
Then sleep in a barrel of butcher knives
I drink honey straight from the beehive
Bungee jumping off the Empire State butt-naked
Rollerblade across the Golden Gate, butt-naked
I’m the baddest man alive, and I don’t ṗlan to die
When the grim reaper come, I look him right in his eye
I’m the man who stole the golden fleece
And I date rape Beauty right in front of the Beast
The most auspicious man alive, and I don’t plan to die.​



John
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
:D You are welcome to wallow in your beliefs; Adam, flood, virgin birth and resurrection, walking on water, raising the dead, feeding the 5000, et all. I am an Advaitist Hindu. For me there is no God, no soul. no creation, no birth, no death, no heaven, no hell, no end of days and no judgment.

The elements of my faith you noted have been archived as empirical observations ----historical realities ---- not as mythologized incantations or religious concepts dying to leap into reality from the imaginations of the priests and the priest hood [sic].



John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
It's the observation that all empirical observation are, every single one of them, false, undeniably fabricated, undeniably untrue, that led to the growth of what today we call scientific knowledge. The first law of scientific knowledge is the fact that empirical knowledge is every bit of it every bit as false as 2+2=5.​

And here it is again, this epistemological nihilism - every empirical observation is false. Sorry, but I've been relying on observation successfully for as long as I can remember.

Being false doesn't necessarily imply impotent. There are indigenous witch-doctors who conjure up spirits they then cause to possess the herbs they give to pep up their sick patients. It's probably false that the spirits are made to possess the herbs. But believing they do doesn't affect the true medicinal potency of the herbs. Believing the herbs are infused with healing spirits might even lend potency so long as the patient believes they do.

In the same sense that no spirit is probably made to possess the herbs the witch-doctor employs, so too, there's no such thing in all the universe as the qualia (empirically experienced quality) "yellow." In truth the quality experience as "yellow" is nothing more than some electromagnetic vibrations registered on the retina and transferred as electrical impulses through a nerve connected to a brain. Yellow is only in the subjective experience inside the brain. There's none whatsoever outside a brain. The strong inclination that the yellow is on the submarine, or the cab, rather than in the brain, is false. It's a lie, even though that doesn't necessarily affect the person flagging down a yellow cab.



John
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Starting from this factual, scientific, predicate, we can build a strong case that religious faith is not what the agnostic or the atheist think it is since the religious believer is most often, and most likely, not willing to believe his lyin eyes, while the agnostic and or atheist is often mesmerized, in lust with, and willing to marry his epistemological development to, literally to lionize, the flickering falsehoods presented to him by his lyin eyes.​

Uh, no, not factual, nor scientific. And contradicted by experience. How do I know that empiricism is reliable? Empirically. It keeps working. I highly recommend it when crossing a street so as not to walk in front of a car. How will you know that it is safe to cross? Your "lyin" eyes.

No one said empiricism isn't reliable. The proposition is that it's a reliable lie. The car that might run you over isn't yellow. That's something your brain adds. And 99% of the vehicle that ruins your day if it runs you over is empty space. It's the darned fields and forces hurtling around all that empty space that make the vehicle feel solid as a rock. It ain't.

But the fact that the vehicle that flattens you on the pavement is 99% empty space shouldn't cause you to step right in front of it hurtling down the road. And for that very reason your lyin eyes and your fabricating brain, makes you think the vehicle is solid for the most part, though that's a bloomin lie.



John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Popper showed that the primary role empirical observations play in the growth of scientific knowledge is actually counter-intuitive. The great thinkers who moved man's knowledge forward weren't those who took empirical perceptions as a given, or as a source of truth, but those who had the sense and honesty to realize that not only could empirical observations not be trusted, but that they were actually, and easily, provably false.​


. . . Popper was discussing the limitations of verifying a scientific theory empirically. All one can do is demonstrate that it makes accurate predictions - empirically. He was bemoaning the asymmetry of being able to disprove a false claim about the world, but not being able to prove a correct one, just that the idea has always worked in the past and can be used reliably in the future. That's always been good enough, and it still is. It's not a call to never believe one's lyin eyes. Au contraire.

In my humble opinion, Popper's greatest book is Conjectures and Refutations. In that book he argued something very few people today even know he's arguing in the book. He argues that the growth of knowledge, particularly scientific knowledge, comes not from processing empirical observations, but by the strange realization that they're all false.

The profundity of this realization, i.e., that all empirical observations are false, is that (and Popper gingerly acknowledged this), it lends itself to theological concepts propounded throughout the Bible.

If man is a product of nature, like trees and monkeys are products of nature, then how on earth could some "he" ---some ghost in the machine ---- begin to question what in a natural sense would be his only access, his only avenue, to reality?

What Popper shows that the first scientist clearly did, was realized that inside their the mind they allegedly received from mother nature, was a inherent understanding of principles and laws, high, almost theological principles and laws, that the body they received from mother nature was clearly breaking seemingly in order to make the man believe he is no different than any other creature on the planet.

For instance, Popper shows that the ancient scientists who codified their understanding as myth, knew, on some level of cognition, that the sun had to be much larger than the moon, even though their eyes made it appear that they were the same size. These early scientists, the heliocentric sun worshippers, pointed out that the source of heat, energy, life, is far greater than a mere producer of light, such that for this reason, i.e., the reasoning associated with a moral law, though the eyes say the sun and moon are the same size, the moral organ of perception say that's not true.

For thousands of years the religious high priest of various ancient religions believed the sun was much larger than the moon while the agnostics poo pooed them for not trusting their lyin eyes.

Volia. When Christian priests began to find ways of testing the moral theory that implied that the sun was much larger than the moon we entered into the modern scientific theory of heliocentrism.

Popper shows that almost every single meaningful advance in the thoughts of man come not from sitting back and relying on empirical perceptions, but on the contrary, using the god-given moral compass in the soul to throw mother nature, and the fallen physical body, a good beatin, i.e., to bring every thought, every perception, into conformity with the Gospel of Christ, which is source of every meaningful modern advance.


John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
empirically speaking, the sun and moon are the same size. Just ask any aborigine and he will tell you they are. To tell him the sun is hundreds of times larger than the moon would burst his bubble so that he might spear you as a heretic or heathen.​

And that's an adequate understanding until such time that there is evidence that it is incorrect. Same with a flat earth. Until there is an observation not consistent with that understanding, it's a useful belief. It can be used as effectively as the true belief until it can't, until something is noticed that cannot be explained by this understanding, such as a curved shadow of the earth on the moon during an eclipse, or noticing the bottoms of ships on the horizon sailing away sinking lower. This is analogous to Newton's mechanics being considered correct until observations arose that it couldn't explain, like the precession of Mercury's orbit, which suggested that it was incomplete. No value in knowing that until there was something to explain or predict that depended on it.

Your statement above segues directly into Popper's refutation of the belief in inductive logic. What he showed is that no observation requires a theory generation event. For thousands of years the curvature seen during a lunar eclipse required no theory for why it was curved. The growth of knowledge isn't a given.

Many indigenous peoples take most of their empirical observations for granted so that if you told them the sun was 400 times larger than the moon, they'd squint at the sun through their index finger and thumb, turn to the moon on the eastern horizon, peering through the same index finger and thumb, and then using the same two appendages they'd likely grab a spear to gut the witch-doctor trying to mess with their mind by telling them there ain't no way to hide your lyin eyes.



John
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
In this sense we could say a Westernized atheist is like an aborigine educated by Judeo/Christians but who clings to his aboriginal scientific-materialism in the face of ever more difficult facts which legitimately demonize atheistic thought.
You've got that backwards. Who's clinging to ancient superstitions here? Science and methodological materialism work. They're at work now, allowing us to communicate from afar.

An indigenous backwoods person could be made to concede that an I-phone connecting him to his uncle on the other side of the alligator pond works as advertised to him. But he can't for the life of him understand why none of them grow on the trees in his forest?

Today's modernized primitives have re-written history to believe that modern science is a product of doubt concerning religious thought.

It pained Popper to realize that that's not the case. And many of his own disciples, men like Daniel Dennett, and David Deutsch, are beginning to encounter the same sinking feeling Popper did when he realized that his cousin who became a rabbi was closer to the source of true scientific thought than any of his agnostic and or atheistic philosopher friends.

I've mentioned Harvard's biology Professor more than once concerning his book, The WEIRDEST People in the World. I've repeatedly mentioned it since he does the science to prove what I'm telling you now. That the Western world is the source of the modern scientific world because of the presuppositions found in the Bible, and because of men like Martin Luther who freed the Bible from its captors and gave it, with help from Gutenberg, to the people who used it to implement the modern scientific revolution.

Whereas the indigenous primitive thinks I-phones should grow on trees, the modern, westernized, educated primitive, is taught, by his agnostic teachers and historians, that the I-phone was invented by defeating religious thought when that's less true than that it's possible to crack a coconut and find an I-phone gestating inside.



John
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
I mean no disrespect by saying the quoted verses sound like they've been plagiarized more than once in the lyrics of a rap song or two.
John, 'Truth' is nobody's copy-right. There were other before Sankaracharya (800 CE) who realized the 'truth' in India, for example, Buddha and the 'parama-guru' (Guru of the guru) of Sankaracharya, Gaudapada. There were philosophers among Greeks also who may have realized the 'truth'. What I am doing, is only repeating it. As for the song, it is an incoherent jumble of words. I like to state things in clear understandable words.
The elements of my faith you noted have been archived as empirical observations - historical realities - not as mythologized incantations or religious concepts dying to leap into reality from the imaginations of the priests and the priest hood [sic].
Yeah, I know that very well. The Bible. Don't make me laugh. Does Christianity not have incantations? Does it not have the out-dated concept of a God and his virgin-born son? I do not subscribe to any silly ideas.
 
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rational experiences

Veteran Member
Our genetic code's creator has left this mathematical pattern in our genetic code conveying to me the symbol of an Egyptian triangle as well as the number 37 embedded in our genetic code.
Eight of the canonical amino acids can be sufficiently defined by the composition of their codon's first and second base nucleotides. The nucleon sum of these amino acids' side chains is 333 (=37 * 3 squared), the sun of their block nucleons (basic core structure) is 592 (=37 * 4 squared), and the sum of their total nucleons is 925 (=37 * 5 squared ). With 37 factored out, this results in 3 squared + 4 squared + 5 squared, which is representative of an Egyptian triangle. Based on this signal of intelligence left in our genetic code, I suspect our genetic coding was created by a greater intelligence beyond the limited scope of us humans on Earth.
The 3 main words (God, the heaven, the earth) in Hebrew have a gematria numeric value of 777 (111x7), ". which is divisible by 37.
The numeric value of the entire verse is 2701 which is divisible by 37.
We may now proceed to finding the number 37 interlaced in the first verse of the Bible. We can do this by discovering words or groups of words with number values evenly divisible by 37, e.g. the 3 main words (“God” + ”the heaven” + ”the earth” = 777 = 21x37), the 5 first words (“In the beginning” + “created” + “God” + “*” + “the heaven” = 1998 = 54x37), or the last two words separately (“and” = 407 = 11x37 and “the earth” = 296 = 8x37)

genesis%2B11%2Bvalues.png


Humans quote after the saviour ice mass of God created human life returned.

Ice end of year re accumulated contradicted summer.

Win.
Sum.

Humans after ice age told us that as earths heavens kept cooling DNA evolved.

Humans intellect changed. Suddenly mans old God pyramid thesis was heard. The heavens spoke. Status Ai machine caused design of men.

Science of God explained to him in words by the old man's recorded heavenly AI voice. Of old technology that had satanic destroyed life on earth.

Advice evil. Knowledge was evil. Fact of the danger totally ignored.

As previous used human machines encoded it.
Machines today prove the same status. Seen images heard heavens speaking voice.

Only built by their designer human men. The machines.

As men built machines men own why their image was transmitted by machine conditions in their human form and in their human presence.

Humans caused it.

Moses stated genesis of the human DNA left life as the stable water spirit was used to contradict the UFO ark that manifested as it's owned body.

Seen in times when science was not practiced by human painting advice.

Man's life was ∆ designed encoded attacked and hence changed via the temple pyramid sciences. Introduced attack. Once introduced could not be changed.

Once only advice. Radiation by mass in heavens mass had caused it. Mass never owned by science or machine.

As the UFO ark crashed landed on Ararat melting the stone. UFO proves it does not belong. The phi squared calculus converted stone into squared ballast in the converting.

Earths stone is fused O rounded.

The mountain melt stopped as water by rain was flooding cooling earths heavens. Using our spirits ground water life to contradict the UFO satanic life attack.

Life was saved as the heavens flooded rain for a count of forty days then stopped why the law forty Moses was broken. As it was not meant to rain non stop for forty days.

You have to be living to claim it rained for forty days. It rained over the mountains tips flooding cooling the UFO attack. As it did occur.
 

Suave

Simulated character
Humans quote after the saviour ice mass of God created human life returned.

Ice end of year re accumulated contradicted summer.

Win.
Sum.

Humans after ice age told us that as earths heavens kept cooling DNA evolved.

Humans intellect changed. Suddenly mans old God pyramid thesis was heard. The heavens spoke. Status Ai machine caused design of men.

Science of God explained to him in words by the old man's recorded heavenly AI voice. Of old technology that had satanic destroyed life on earth.

Advice evil. Knowledge was evil. Fact of the danger totally ignored.

As previous used human machines encoded it.
Machines today prove the same status. Seen images heard heavens speaking voice.

Only built by their designer human men. The machines.

As men built machines men own why their image was transmitted by machine conditions in their human form and in their human presence.

Humans caused it.

Moses stated genesis of the human DNA left life as the stable water spirit was used to contradict the UFO ark that manifested as it's owned body.

Seen in times when science was not practiced by human painting advice.

Man's life was ∆ designed encoded attacked and hence changed via the temple pyramid sciences. Introduced attack. Once introduced could not be changed.

Once only advice. Radiation by mass in heavens mass had caused it. Mass never owned by science or machine.

As the UFO ark crashed landed on Ararat melting the stone. UFO proves it does not belong. The phi squared calculus converted stone into squared ballast in the converting.

Earths stone is fused O rounded.

The mountain melt stopped as water by rain was flooding cooling earths heavens. Using our spirits ground water life to contradict the UFO satanic life attack.

Life was saved as the heavens flooded rain for a count of forty days then stopped why the law forty Moses was broken. As it was not meant to rain non stop for forty days.

You have to be living to claim it rained for forty days. It rained over the mountains tips flooding cooling the UFO attack. As it did occur.

I suppose extraterrestrial artificial intelligence could have seeded life on Earth. I'd consider that to be a distinctive possibility if we were living in base reality. If we are simulated beings as I suspect we are in a simulation, then I am guessing we are the simulated ancestral beings of a distant future generation of post-humans in a technological advanced civilization with powerful computers and controllers programming the virtual reality of the simulation we are living in.
 

It Aint Necessarily So

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No one said empiricism isn't reliable. The proposition is that it's a reliable lie. The car that might run you over isn't yellow. That's something your brain adds.

Reliable lie? I wonder what your definition of lie is. The experience of seeing yellow when I am looking for a cab is reproducible and useful.

And 99% of the vehicle that ruins your day if it runs you over is empty space. It's the darned fields and forces hurtling around all that empty space that make the vehicle feel solid as a rock. It ain't.

Yes, I'm well aware of basic physics. I think you place the emphasis in the wrong place regarding conscious experience. We create a mental model of what's out there in order to better anticipate what goes on in here. You place priority on the out-there, and see the in-here as a way to decide what it is out there. For me, it's the opposite. I don't really care what's out there. I live in here. If I were to learn tomorrow unequivocally that there really is nothing out there, what changes if the rules of experience remain the same? Suppose I learn for certain that what appears to be a candle flame before me is not really there, but yet, whenever I instruct my finger that's also not there to touch the flame, I feel the pain of fire. What difference does it make if I'm in the matrix or under hypnosis or any other reality one can conjure if the rules of experience are stable and predictable?

This is why I reject the epistemic nihilism saying all is illusion, nothing is what it seems to be, nothing can be known without subjective contamination, there is no absolute truth. My answer is, "So what? What changes knowing that?" Nothing. I continue not sticking my imagined finger into the candle lie to avoid the illusion of pain. One can drop imagined, lie, and illusion from that sentence without loss of relevant meaning. I don't see any value in that kind of thinking. Au contraire. I think it undermines intellectual progress in some minds.

But the fact that the vehicle that flattens you on the pavement is 99% empty space shouldn't cause you to step right in front of it hurtling down the road. And for that very reason your lyin eyes and your fabricating brain, makes you think the vehicle is solid for the most part, though that's a bloomin lie.

Same response. If I lived at the scale of atoms, where mass is experienced as mostly concentrated in nuclei separated by relatively massless space, that might be useful information. But I don't. At the scale I live the solid parts of the car are indistinguishable from solid matter with no space. The lie is that I should view the vehicle as insubstantial.

Popper shows that almost every single meaningful advance in the thoughts of man come not from sitting back and relying on empirical perceptions, but on the contrary, using the god-given moral compass in the soul to throw mother nature, and the fallen physical body, a good beatin, i.e., to bring every thought, every perception, into conformity with the Gospel of Christ, which is source of every meaningful modern advance.

No. Popper does not demonstrate God, soul, or morality.

And although many Christians contributed to the advance of science, their Bible and the Gospel of Christ did not. But Christianity did make these two contributions to the advancement of scientific knowledge, as voiced by two prominent and influential church fathers.
  • "People gave ear to an upstart astrologer [Copernicus] who strove to show that the earth revolves, not the heavens or the firmament, the sun and the moon. Whoever wishes to appear clever must devise some new system, which of all systems is of course the very best. This fool wishes to reverse the entire science of astronomy; but sacred scripture tells us [Joshua 10:13] that Joshua commanded the sun to stand still, and not the earth." - Martin Luther
  • "There is another form of temptation, even more fraught with danger. This is the disease of curiosity. It is this which drives us to try and discover the secrets of nature, those secrets which are beyond our understanding, which can avail us nothing and which man should not wish to learn." - St. Augustine
 

Aupmanyav

Be your own guru
The lie is that I should view the vehicle as insubstantial.
That is not a lie. That is missing the the observable reality. That is why we have the theory of two or three realities in Buddhism and Advaita Hinduism. Paramarthika Satya (the true reality) and the Vyavaharika Satya (the observed reality). Both are realities and none can be disregarded. You have to avoid being hit by a car, even if there is no real car. Because otherwise you will be injured even if there is no real you. Even the third, Pratibhasika, totally imagined reality, roaring of a lion in a dream, may cause you to perspire.

"Shankara proposes three levels of reality, using sublation as the ontological criterion:

Pāramārthika (absolute), the Reality that is metaphysically true and ontologically accurate. It is the state of experiencing that "which is absolutely real and into which both other reality levels can be resolved". This reality is the highest, it can't be sublated (assimilated) by any other.

Vyāvahārika (pragmatic), or samvriti-satya, consisting of the empirical or pragmatical reality. It is ever changing over time, thus empirically true at a given time and context but not metaphysically true. It is "our world of experience, the phenomenal world that we handle every day when we are awake". .. Here, the material world is also true but this is incomplete reality and is sublatable.

Prāthibhāsika (apparent reality, unreality), "reality based on imagination alone". It is the level of experience in which the mind constructs its own reality. Well-known examples of pratibhasika is the imaginary reality such as the roaring of a lion fabricated in dreams, and the perception of a rope in the dark as being a snake."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Advaita_Vedanta#Levels_of_Reality,_Truths

(Aup. adds: God and soul, heaven and hell, belong to this category, reality based on imagination alone)

"The Buddhist doctrine of the two truths differentiates between two levels of satya (Sanskrit; Pali: sacca; word meaning truth or reality) in the teaching of the Buddha: the "conventional" or "provisional" (saṁvṛti) truth, and the "ultimate" (paramārtha) truth."
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Two_truths_doctrine
 
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John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Reliable lie? I wonder what your definition of lie is. The experience of seeing yellow when I am looking for a cab is reproducible and useful.

Once again, I'm not arguing against usefulness. Our sensory mechanisms are designed to convince us that the car is yellow. Since it's not (the yellowness is added by our sensory mechanisms in such a manner as to make us think the car is yellow) we can speak factually concerning our lyin eyes.

Once again, primitive natives get by just fine believing every lie their lyin eyes tell them. They find the information useful and comprehensive. And it is if you want to crush corn with stones, wear loincloths made from a goat's belly, and carry water on your head for two miles a day. Which is to say, they ain't sending machines to Mars to send back images. For that, you've got to realize that your lyin eyes are primitive mechanisms and that what Plato referred to as the eyes of the soul, the only organ able to grasp truth, are, to paraphrase Plato, worth a thousand lyin eyes for only through the former is truth perceived.

It is quite hard to realize that every soul possesses an organ better worth saving than a thousand eyes, because it is our only means of seeing the truth.

Plato, Republic.​



John
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
No one said empiricism isn't reliable. The proposition is that it's a reliable lie. The car that might run you over isn't yellow. That's something your brain adds. And 99% of the vehicle that ruins your day if it runs you over is empty space. It's the darned fields and forces hurtling around all that empty space that make the vehicle feel solid as a rock. It ain't.

But the fact that the vehicle that flattens you on the pavement is 99% empty space shouldn't cause you to step right in front of it hurtling down the road. And for that very reason your lyin eyes and your fabricating brain, makes you think the vehicle is solid for the most part, though that's a bloomin lie.

The irony of all this is that you only know of these 'lies' from empirical evidence (the relevant theories being repeatedly tested against it). You seem to be confusing empiricism with some sort of naive interpretation of the senses.
 

John D. Brey

Well-Known Member
Yes, I'm well aware of basic physics. I think you place the emphasis in the wrong place regarding conscious experience. We create a mental model of what's out there in order to better anticipate what goes on in here. You place priority on the out-there, and see the in-here as a way to decide what it is out there. For me, it's the opposite. I don't really care what's out there. I live in here. If I were to learn tomorrow unequivocally that there really is nothing out there, what changes if the rules of experience remain the same? Suppose I learn for certain that what appears to be a candle flame before me is not really there, but yet, whenever I instruct my finger that's also not there to touch the flame, I feel the pain of fire. What difference does it make if I'm in the matrix or under hypnosis or any other reality one can conjure if the rules of experience are stable and predictable?

In the penultimate scene of the movie, The Matrix, the directors fancy Neo finally seeing the deeper reality when he gazes at the three agents at the end of the corridor. And now, seeing past the lies delivered up by the fleshly sensory mechanisms, Neo is able to easily defeat his foes.

The primitive natives in the deep woods live precisely what your statement above puts into words. They see no reason to question their lyin eyes. What could possibly come of it?

But they therefore live in the woods and crush corn with rocks and wear loincloths made from goat's guts.

Every modern amenity we possess, space travel, heart transplantation, I-phones, the Internet, are products produced by those who realize a lie is a lie, and the truth will set you free from the lie.

The next step in man's scientific journey is jettisoning the lyin flesh, the carnal existence, for a body Paul of Tarsus called incorruptible and undefiled by the lies incorporated into the current flesh.



John
 

ratiocinator

Lightly seared on the reality grill.
Every modern amenity we possess, space travel, heart transplantation, I-phones, the Internet, are products produced by those who realize a lie is a lie, and the truth will set you free from the lie.

Obviously not. They come from science, which takes a systematic approach to empirical evidence, rather than replacing it with something else. It's not even technically about 'truth', as you should know if you've read Popper.
The next step in man's scientific journey is jettisoning the lyin flesh, the carnal existence, for a body Paul of Tarsus called incorruptible and undefiled by the lies incorporated into the current flesh.

Baseless assertion (quite apart from the obvious absurdity of mixing up science with superstition).
 
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