Basis of Belief

[Evangelicalhumanist]

Right. And in that process, the deepest analyzers began to think about the empirical evidence itself. For instance, empirically speaking, the sun and moon are the same size. Just ask any aborigine and he will tell you they are. To tell him the sun is hundreds of times larger than the moon would burst his bubble so that he might spear you as a heretic or heathen. He'd look west at the sun (measuring it betwixt his thumb and forefinger), east at the moon (measuring it the same), turn and gut you then and there as a trouble-making witch-doctor trying to curse his thoughts.

I don't want to burst your bubble, but empirical evidence has been found to be wanting. It's wrong. It's a lie. Please spare me a spearing for bursting your bubble.



John

I disagree -- empirical evidence is not a lie, it is merely incomplete in itself. It requires deeper understanding of other empirical evidence in conjunction with itself in order get closer to the truth.

Look at the history of art, and in particular, perspective, and you'll see what I mean.

 

[John D. Brey]

Our profound ignorance is self-evident.

Amen. But then our ability to perceive our profound ignorance is profoundly brilliant. And our profound humility to subject our brilliance to our profound ignorance bursts the fore-skene of our material existence positing the need for a non-empirical, non-material, explanation for what we are and are not.

Once this fact of the human condition is acknowledged, "belief" becomes a disingenuous delusion, and we can simply trust in a circumstantial hypothesis, or not, and move on.

It seems like your argument is that we are like all other mammals such that our belief and or system of belief are illusory (since other mammals probably don't wonder about the size of the sun, or if they could migrate to another planet, or whether lying is a sin requiring belief in a savior).

Unfortunately, as Kant implied, should, implies could. Our morals, our science, our religion, are based on a duality of thought found nowhere else in the universe (so far at least). We're not mere mammals. Materialistic science will almost surely be forced, in our lifetime, to finally concede that truism.

What they or I "believe in" is irrelevant. What matters is what is and what isn't. What is and what isn't is the human condition. The condition of our unknowing. We can pretend we know all kinds of things by "believing in" that pretense, but the fact remains that we know almost nothing. We understand almost nothing. We live in a "reality" that our minds have imagined and memorized in our brains. We think that imaginary world is THE world, because THE world exists apart from us except through a few very limited sensory mechanisms.

. . . Poetic, fun, witty maybe, but circular and inane ---in my humble opinion ----so far as reality is concerned.

Our thoughts, beliefs, hopes and dreams, are the brick and mortar of our world. And nowhere in the broad history of life on this planet is this truism more true and obvious than it is now.

There were no I-phones before Jesus' came. There were no Mars rovers before Jesus' came. I-phones, and Mars rovers, and International Space Stations, didn't grown on trees. They grew out of Judeo/Christian thought, belief, science, and culture; they're a part of a cultural reality chosen from among other possible realities; say for instance the tribal cultures of the deep woods aborigines who would find I-phones and space ships to be the work of the devil.



John

 

[Mock Turtle]

I'll have to go with a mixture of evidential, experiential, some reasoning, and a dollop of guessing (or probability as I see such), given that I can't be assured by any one of these - but still probably better than accepting some religious text, for me at least anyway, given that I have least faith in our past and what we produced when we had essentially no accurate knowledge.

 

[John D. Brey]

Yet in reality the sun and moon only appear the same size. An optical illusion caused by different distances.

. . . We know that now, only because of the men who realized that they couldn't trust their lyin eyes. Aborigines tend to trust their lyin eyes so that if you show them an I-phone they might just spear you as an alien from another world. . . There's no I-phones growing on trees, or falling from the sky, in their world. Ergo you don't belong and had better get a move on.

You see, like some here, they just trust their lyin eyes. And unlike most here, they had no Judeo/Christians to educate them about how backward the belief that their eyes are a window on reality actually is.

In this sense we could say a Westernized atheist is like an aborigine educated by Judeo/Christians but who clings to his aboriginal scientific-materialism in the face of ever more difficult facts which legitimately demonize atheistic thought. The poor atheist has to choose between joining his deep woods brothers or continuing to live in a Western world that's clearly lifting the material man out of the bondages of sin and death, and into the glorious Kingdom of our Lord. He (the atheist) wants his MTV, but wants to still believe he's merely a smart mammal like his deep woods brothers' cultural relics imply to be true.

What a terrible dilemma for the Westernized atheist. Remain true to your cultural genesis, eat bark, witchetty-grub, and bark at the moon on Saturday night, or drive your Tesla down to Cannery Row for dinner and modern night life all the while not mentioning out loud that you're actually an atheistic aborigine to the waiter or doorman at the club. Godforbid a white, larval, idea, crawl out of the pocket of the atheist's mind right as he's putting the moves on a Jewish or Christian girl on the dance floor.



John

 

[Suave]

What is the primary basis of your beliefs?*

Do you feel one primary basis or foundation is more correct than another? Why or why not?


*I understand many of you may use a combination of these to form a belief, but I used "primary" in the question above to learn what your go-to or default foundation is, which is why only one poll choice is permitted in this poll.

____________________________________________

Our genetic code's creator has left this mathematical pattern in our genetic code conveying to me the symbol of an Egyptian triangle as well as the number 37 embedded in our genetic code.
Eight of the canonical amino acids can be sufficiently defined by the composition of their codon's first and second base nucleotides. The nucleon sum of these amino acids' side chains is 333 (=37 * 3 squared), the sun of their block nucleons (basic core structure) is 592 (=37 * 4 squared), and the sum of their total nucleons is 925 (=37 * 5 squared ). With 37 factored out, this results in 3 squared + 4 squared + 5 squared, which is representative of an Egyptian triangle. Based on this signal of intelligence left in our genetic code, I suspect our genetic coding was created by a greater intelligence beyond the limited scope of us humans on Earth.
The 3 main words (God, the heaven, the earth) in Hebrew have a gematria numeric value of 777 (111x7), ". which is divisible by 37.
The numeric value of the entire verse is 2701 which is divisible by 37.
We may now proceed to finding the number 37 interlaced in the first verse of the Bible. We can do this by discovering words or groups of words with number values evenly divisible by 37, e.g. the 3 main words (“God” + ”the heaven” + ”the earth” = 777 = 21x37), the 5 first words (“In the beginning” + “created” + “God” + “*” + “the heaven” = 1998 = 54x37), or the last two words separately (“and” = 407 = 11x37 and “the earth” = 296 = 8x37)

 

[The Hammer]

What is the primary basis of your beliefs?*

Do you feel one primary basis or foundation is more correct than another? Why or why not?


*I understand many of you may use a combination of these to form a belief, but I used "primary" in the question above to learn what your go-to or default foundation is, which is why only one poll choice is permitted in this poll.

____________________________________________

Mainly experiential, that's how I base the majority of my views. It's a good method IMO, because you know it's working for you.

Evidential works as well, but I still base it on experience. This has worked before and is therefore evidence it can work again

 

[firedragon]

What is the primary basis of your beliefs?*

Do you feel one primary basis or foundation is more correct than another? Why or why not?


*I understand many of you may use a combination of these to form a belief, but I used "primary" in the question above to learn what your go-to or default foundation is, which is why only one poll choice is permitted in this poll.

____________________________________________

Reason.

About the "more correct than the other" question, it would depend on peoples epistemology. One just cannot say one is more correct than the other. But I can say that contradiction and not being consistent in non-contradiction and thinking emotional arguments trump logic and reason is not a very good foundation or basis.

 

[John D. Brey]

I disagree -- empirical evidence is not a lie, it is merely incomplete in itself. It requires deeper understanding of other empirical evidence in conjunction with itself in order get closer to the truth.

I agree. Unfortunately, empirical evidence doesn't come with a disclaimer. That had to come from Judeo/Christian cultural examination of the facts.

There are hundreds of human cultures which never got the memo that empirical observations are not complete. There are many participants of this very forum who have yet to get that memo.



John

 

[PureX]

Amen. But then our ability to perceive our profound ignorance is profoundly brilliant. And our profound humility to subject our brilliance to our profound ignorance bursts the fore-skene of our material existence positing the need for a non-empirical, non-material, explanation for what we are and are not.

I'm a Taoist, so I seek no such explanations.

It seems like your argument is that we are like all other mammals such that our belief and or system of belief are illusory (since other mammals probably don't wonder about the size of the sun, or if they could migrate to another planet, or whether lying is a sin requiring belief in a savior).

We are animals, but we are also human beings. We are 'hybrids' suspended between the material and the divine, existing partly in each, but not wholly in either.

Unfortunately, as Kant implied, should, implies could. Our morals, our science, our religion, are based on a duality of thought found nowhere else in the universe (so far at least).

Yin and Yang are cognitive forces created in our minds by the way the human brain functions (compare-contrast-repeat). We cannot grasp the whole (Tao) because our brains are binary mechanisms, but if we can relax, and allow the Yin and the Yang that we perceive to sort of "dance together" with each other in our minds, we can intuit the whole. Or at least the way of it's flow. And if we can align ourselves with that flow, we can fulfill our place in the whole without having to grasp it, understand it, own it, or control it. (Which we cannot do, anyway.)

We're not mere mammals. Materialistic science will almost surely be forced, in our lifetime, to finally concede that truism.

I hope so. Because at present, science is increasing our functionality at the cost of our wisdom. And that's a recipe for disaster.

. . . Poetic, fun, witty maybe, but circular and inane ---in my humble opinion ----so far as reality is concerned.

Truth would be both circular and inane, though, wouldn't it. As well as inexplicable and paradoxical. Because we are incapable of comprehending it with the human mind.

Our thoughts, beliefs, hopes and dreams, are the brick and mortar of our world. And nowhere in the broad history of life on this planet is this truism more true and obvious than it is now.

It is part of the 'Tao of mankind' to presume itself to be divine; to try and 'play god' to the world. To assume that the world exists to serve us, and to actively try to correct it when it doesn't. This may well be our downfall in the end. Or maybe it'll be the path to our transcendence. Who knows? Not us.

There were no I-phones before Jesus' came. There were no Mars rovers before Jesus' came. I-phones, and Mars rovers, and International Space Stations, didn't grown on trees. They grew out of Judeo/Christian thought, belief, science, and culture; they're a part of a cultural reality chosen from among other possible realities; say for instance the tribal cultures of the deep woods aborigines who would find I-phones and space ships to be the work of the devil.

Yes, those things are the result of man's 'original sin', as revealed in the Bible.

 

[firedragon]

Yes, those things are the result of man's 'original sin', as revealed in the Bible.

Which verse?

 

[ChristineM]

. . . We know that now, only because of the men who realized that they couldn't trust their lyin eyes. Aborigines tend to trust their lyin eyes so that if you show them an I-phone they might just spear you as an alien from another world. . . There's no I-phones growing on trees, or falling from the sky, in their world. Ergo you don't belong and had better get a move on.

You see, like some here, they just trust their lyin eyes. And unlike most here, they had no Judeo/Christians to educate them about how backward the belief that their eyes are a window on reality actually is.

In this sense we could say a Westernized atheist is like an aborigine educated by Judeo/Christians but who clings to his aboriginal scientific-materialism in the face of ever more difficult facts which legitimately demonize atheistic thought. The poor atheist has to choose between joining his deep woods brothers or continuing to live in a Western world that's clearly lifting the material man out of the bondages of sin and death, and into the glorious Kingdom of our Lord. He (the atheist) wants his MTV, but wants to still believe he's merely a smart mammal like his deep woods brothers' cultural relics imply to be true.

What a terrible dilemma for the Westernized atheist. Remain true to your cultural genesis, eat bark, witchetty-grub, and bark at the moon on Saturday night, or drive your Tesla down to Cannery Row for dinner and modern night life all the while not mentioning out loud that you're actually an atheistic aborigine to the waiter or doorman at the club. Godforbid a white, larval, idea, crawl out of the pocket of the atheist's mind right as he's putting the moves on a Jewish or Christian girl on the dance floor.



John

Looks like you have problems reading, i said

So what bubble have you burst? And if all you can do is offer threats then i think we are done

But no, you obviously have no trouble reading, what you did was deliberately cut it from your reply. I think that is particularly ignorant, don't you?

 

[Subduction Zone]

Looks like you have problems reading, i said



But no, you obviously have no trouble reading, what you did was deliberately xut it from your reply. I think that is particularly ignorant, don't you?

Or worse than ignorant if done on purpose.

 

[John D. Brey]

Yes, those things are the result of man's 'original sin', as revealed in the Bible.

. . . Then you better sprinkle some holy water on those fingers that touched those profane keys on that evil I-mac come from betwixt Cain's thighs.



John

 

[John D. Brey]

But no, you obviously have no trouble reading, what you did was deliberately cut it from your reply. I think that is particularly ignorant, don't you?

Unless you agree with my stated belief that all empirical observations are wrong, and thus a lie, then the bubble I might have burst is the belief that empirical observations are faithful.

But if you, like myself, never trust empirical observations (except where necessary, as a necessary evil), then no bubble has been burst and you and I can burst into Judeo/Christian song and dance together as we go about repairing the world.



John

 

[PureX]

Which verse?

The whole story of Eden in Genesis. Man's original sin was not 'disobedience', it was hubris. It was the sin of presuming that we are God's equals, with the requisite knowledge of 'good and evil' and the right to stand in judgment of all creation. And the result that we toil and labor our lives away trying to make creation serve us, as if we were it's master and we know what it's all for, when we are not, and we do not.

 

[ChristineM]

Unless you agree with my stated belief that all empirical observations are wrong, and thus a lie, then the bubble I might have burst is the belief that empirical observations are faithful.

But if you, like myself, never trust empirical observations (except where necessary, as a necessary evil), then no bubble has been burst and you and I can burst into Judeo/Christian song and dance together as we go about repairing the world.



John

And still the ignorance is rampant

 

[Eyes to See]

I’ll chime in. My beliefs are based upon the Holy Scriptures found in what is commonly known as the Bible. Over decades of study and investigation I have found much convincing evidence of its divine authorship, including accurate archeological details, reliable prophecy, historical accuracy, and the fact that its words when applied help anyone no matter who they are or where they are.

It reveals who God is and gives us his name: Jehovah. It explains why the world is in the condition it is in, why we suffer, what God has done to redeem mankind from sinning and death, and gives hope and purpose to life and the future.

Out of all the prophecies in the Bible the one in Isaiah 43:10, 11 convince me of God’s divinity, his power, and who are being guided by his spirit when he says:

“You are my witnesses,” declares Jehovah, “Yes, my servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and have faith in me And understand that I am the same One. Before me no God was formed, And after me there has been none. 11 I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.”-Isaiah 43:10, 11.


No other God has called forth witnesses and no other God has accurately foretold what he is going to do as Jehovah as done. That the God of the Bible, Jehovah has witnesses and are proclaiming in all the earth the good news as Jesus foretold in Matthew 24:14 is convincing proof of God’s authorship of the Bible, of his power, and of the miracles he is performing on a mighty scale in our days.

As he said:

“And I will shake all the nations, and the precious things of all the nations will come in; and I will fill this house with glory,’ says Jehovah of armies.”-Haggai 2:7.

I have seen the good hand of the living God in my life and have found him to be a God of love and mercy. And he is teaching us to extend that love and mercy to others. We love because he loved us first, not that we loved him. But the love that God and his son have for us compels us to love.

The more I see the joy God has in his life, and the happiness that there is in his presence the more I find rejoicing in being near him, and the more I wish to share that with others by being a loving and gentle and kind person to all. For that is the true nature and character of God. And I only wish to be more like him. As Jesus taught us, to love our enemies, and to pray for those who persecute us. Not to judge, and to forgive others as we have been freely forgiven.

All things are judged based on this. Let God’s word be found true yet every man’s a liar. That is any saying that rises up in contradiction to God’s word in the Bible is counterfeit and a lie. I base all my beliefs solely on the Bible as it not only claims to be inspired of the one true God, it bears testimony with true marks of divine authorship. There is no inspired word of truth aside from the Bible. So I do not follow any man-made creed or doctrine. And there are millions of others who are with me in pure worship of the one and only living God in heaven Jehovah God, and his only-begotten son, Jesus Christ, as their witnesses to the nations.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I’ll chime in. My beliefs are based upon the Holy Scriptures found in what is commonly known as the Bible. Over decades of study and investigation I have found much convincing evidence of its divine authorship, including accurate archeological details, reliable prophecy, historical accuracy, and the fact that its words when applied help anyone no matter who they are or where they are.

It reveals who God is and gives us his name: Jehovah. It explains why the world is in the condition it is in, why we suffer, what God has done to redeem mankind from sinning and death, and gives hope and purpose to life and the future.

Out of all the prophecies in the Bible the one in Isaiah 43:10, 11 convince me of God’s divinity, his power, and who are being guided by his spirit when he says:

“You are my witnesses,” declares Jehovah, “Yes, my servant whom I have chosen, So that you may know and have faith in me And understand that I am the same One. Before me no God was formed, And after me there has been none. 11 I—I am Jehovah, and besides me there is no savior.”-Isaiah 43:10, 11.


No other God has called forth witnesses and no other God has accurately foretold what he is going to do as Jehovah as done. That the God of the Bible, Jehovah has witnesses and are proclaiming in all the earth the good news as Jesus foretold in Matthew 24:14 is convincing proof of God’s authorship of the Bible, of his power, and of the miracles he is performing on a mighty scale in our days.

As he said:

“And I will shake all the nations, and the precious things of all the nations will come in; and I will fill this house with glory,’ says Jehovah of armies.”-Haggai 2:7.

I have seen the good hand of the living God in my life and have found him to be a God of love and mercy. And he is teaching us to extend that love and mercy to others. We love because he loved us first, not that we loved him. But the love that God and his son have for us compels us to love.

The more I see the joy God has in his life, and the happiness that there is in his presence the more I find rejoicing in being near him, and the more I wish to share that with others by being a loving and gentle and kind person to all. For that is the true nature and character of God. And I only wish to be more like him. As Jesus taught us, to love our enemies, and to pray for those who persecute us. Not to judge, and to forgive others as we have been freely forgiven.

All things are judged based on this. Let God’s word be found true yet every man’s a liar. That is any saying that rises up in contradiction to God’s word in the Bible is counterfeit and a lie. I base all my beliefs solely on the Bible as it not only claims to be inspired of the one true God, it bears testimony with true marks of divine authorship. There is no inspired word of truth aside from the Bible. So I do not follow any man-made creed or doctrine. And there are millions of others who are with me in pure worship of the one and only living God in heaven Jehovah God, and his only-begotten son, Jesus Christ, as their witnesses to the nations.

Then you are probably not analyzing the Bible rationally since it continually fails when one does that. It is full of incorrect science. Failed prophecy, And poor morals to name just a few of its problems.

 

[Link]

I know I am vision/judgment value created through God's sight and judgment and light. This is the first foundation and the root. Whether negative or positive, this is first thing I accept, and I am probably a lot more of negative traits and probably negative in the balance, but I will change that.

 

[Secret Chief]

aborigine

This term is now considered insensitive and has racist overtones.

- https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/c...8-facts-about-indigenous-people-in-australia/