Batman VS the OWS+Al Quaeda

[apophenia]

Just saw The Dark Night Rises.

What a load of bollocks.

This was clearly pay-as-you-go propaganda.

Not that people notice. I remember 'Starship Troopers' and the war against the Iraq-nid Empire. Those nasty insects in the desert ... I could not believe the stone cold poker-faced ignorance of people who told me I was a 'conspiracy theorist' when I pointed out that this was basically propaganda to support the idea of a second invasion of Iraq. I mean, come on people, Iraq-nids ?

Anyway, the Dark Knight, if you hadn't noticed,blatantly conflates the Occupy Wall Street movement and Al Quaeda as a single threat to American free-market capitalism. Bruce Wayne/Batman conflates the 1% super-wealthy (portrayed as self-sacrificing philanthropists) and the Military Industrial Complex (the wonderful armoury produced by Fox).

The evil Bain and the other inhabitants of The Pit look like arabs in their shawls etc (more Iraq-nids ?) and present in Wall St with the political philosophy of OWS.

The insane expenditure on arms (USA accounts for 41% of the planet earth's military budget) is justified with the lavish display of lethal techno-fetish in the name of protecting the good people of Gotham (give me a break).

Modern US culture has established an extraordinary new development in the world of propaganda - sell it with popcorn and coke. The herd just laps it up.

The audience just doesn't join the dots.

 

[Caladan]

I haven't seen the Dark Night Rises. But as far as Starship Troopers go, it was already analyzed and criticised in the form of Heinlein's original novel for it's simplistic fascist elements, and I'm not sure the movie attempts to hide the sometimes banal propaganda in use by the human population in their war efforts and attempts to unify and conform civilians under government authority. Starship Troopers displays an authoritative and fascist human utopia, it's not something that escaped critiques of the novel long before the film adaptation came out. And like I said, it doesn't seem that the movie made any attempt to present the propaganda of the Terran Federation as anything short of fascist.

 

[Father Heathen]

The Current Batman Triology is based on Frank Miller's works, right? That would explain a lot.

 

[Revoltingest]

Just saw The Dark Night Rises.

What a load of bollocks.

This was clearly pay-as-you-go propaganda.

Not that people notice. I remember 'Starship Troopers' and the war against the Iraq-nid Empire. Those nasty insects in the desert ... I could not believe the stone cold poker-faced ignorance of people who told me I was a 'conspiracy theorist' when I pointed out that this was basically propaganda to support the idea of a second invasion of Iraq. I mean, come on people, Iraq-nids ?

Anyway, the Dark Knight, if you hadn't noticed,blatantly conflates the Occupy Wall Street movement and Al Quaeda as a single threat to American free-market capitalism. Bruce Wayne/Batman conflates the 1% super-wealthy (portrayed as self-sacrificing philanthropists) and the Military Industrial Complex (the wonderful armoury produced by Fox).

The evil Bain and the other inhabitants of The Pit look like arabs in their shawls etc (more Iraq-nids ?) and present in Wall St with the political philosophy of OWS.

The insane expenditure on arms (USA accounts for 41% of the planet earth's military budget) is justified with the lavish display of lethal techno-fetish in the name of protecting the good people of Gotham (give me a break).

Modern US culture has established an extraordinary new development in the world of propaganda - sell it with popcorn and coke. The herd just laps it up.

The audience just doesn't join the dots.

Starship Troopers as real-world propaganda?
Dang....I saw it as satire of militarism, statism & propaganda.
Just look at the over-the-top hilarity.....
[youtube]TDmcgL9XLaM[/youtube]
Starship Troopers 3 - God Is On Our Side! - YouTube

And this....but caution! There is bovine gore.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J206CKoG1R0

 

[apophenia]

Starship Troopers as real-world propaganda?
Dang....I saw it as satire of militarism, statism & propaganda.
Just look at the over-the-top hilarity.....

You are right, Starship Troopers is satirical. But then, have you seen the Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck cartoons made during WW2 ? The idea of Bugs as war propaganda seems absurd, but there is no doubt about it when you see it (I'm not equating WW2 and Iraq of course). Comedy can be used effectively to dehumanise the adversary. I think the Iraq-nid Empire was a politically correct way to portray the Iraqis as creepy crawlies which (not who) had to be exterminated, and to portray the immanent battle as a good ole fashioned turkey shoot. Which is, I think, what everyone was expecting, (and later, after 911, looking forward to vengefully, despite Iraq having had nothing to do with 911 - the American people were trained in various ways into seeing them as a target).

Dark Knight on the other hand is unambiguously propaganda, not just against OWS, but in defense of massive military spending at a time when the US is bleeding profusely (possibly terminally) economically. It is absolute glorification of high-tech weaponry, to a level that is on a par with hardcore pornography for weapons fetishists.It almost screams "Yeah, our society is going down the drain, but just look at those killing machines ! God bless America ! "

In Dark Night, the Bruce Wayne financial empire (symbol of American wealth) is under pressure, but fortunately for everyone weapons development has been maintained regardless, and it is the new generation killing machines (and specifically unmanned aerial vehicles) which are the real heroes of the movie. That is the take-home message.

 

[apophenia]

I haven't seen the Dark Night Rises. But as far as Starship Troopers go, it was already analyzed and criticised in the form of Heinlein's original novel for it's simplistic fascist elements, and I'm not sure the movie attempts to hide the sometimes banal propaganda in use by the human population in their war efforts and attempts to unify and conform civilians under government authority. Starship Troopers displays an authoritative and fascist human utopia, it's not something that escaped critiques of the novel long before the film adaptation came out. And like I said, it doesn't seem that the movie made any attempt to present the propaganda of the Terran Federation as anything short of fascist.

The bold part. No attempt to hide anything as far as I could see. The movie made the idea of shooting the **** out of the Iraq-nids totally entertaining. It was cowboys and Indians. The 'satire' made good old-fashioned malevolent racist nationalism clever enough to be appreciated as 'sophisticated humor' by the urbane wannabe intellectual, while delivering what a racist moron could enjoy with the kids.

I grew up watching cowboys and Indians movies. It was "innocent fun". I had no idea that it was propaganda - which it undeniably was. The whole point of cowboys and Indians movies was that the filthy savages had to be killed because they were a threat to civilisation - and that idea was communicated to two generations of children via Hollywood. It was propaganda after the fact - but propaganda nevertheless.

It was not propaganda managed by a central politburo - it was complicity, a convenient marriage of prejudice and imperial ambition carried out by the whole community.

Portraying cowboys and indians as "family entertainment" is like making a comedy out of the massacres at Srebrenitsa. But that is how it was not so very long ago ...

And even more recently audiences around the world were singing "woo hoo !" as the US military blasted away at those savage Iraq-nids. With all the "innocent fun" of slaughtering Indians. Aah, good times. And all in the name of civilisation. Again, no politburo - just the dovetailing of neo-con brainwash and existing fear and prejudice.

Propaganda nevertheless. And what happened about 5 - 7 years later ?

 

[Caladan]

What do you think about 300 in this regard? especially in light of American-Iranian tensions?
The masculine and democratic Greeks against an empire of morally bankrupt Persians, led by a transvestite king. Sometimes it does seem that you're watching propaganda about current affairs when you pay a visit to the cinema.

 

[Revoltingest]

You are right, Starship Troopers is satirical. But then, have you seen the Bugs Bunny and Daffy Duck cartoons made during WW2 ? The idea of Bugs as war propaganda seems absurd, but there is no doubt about it when you see it (I'm not equating WW2 and Iraq of course). Comedy can be used effectively to dehumanise the adversary. I think the Iraq-nid Empire was a politically correct way to portray the Iraqis as creepy crawlies which (not who) had to be exterminated, and to portray the immanent battle as a good ole fashioned turkey shoot. Which is, I think, what everyone was expecting, (and later, after 911, looking forward to vengefully, despite Iraq having had nothing to do with 911 - the American people were trained in various ways into seeing them as a target).

Dark Knight on the other hand is unambiguously propaganda, not just against OWS, but in defense of massive military spending at a time when the US is bleeding profusely (possibly terminally) economically. It is absolute glorification of high-tech weaponry, to a level that is on a par with hardcore pornography for weapons fetishists.It almost screams "Yeah, our society is going down the drain, but just look at those killing machines ! God bless America ! "

In Dark Night, the Bruce Wayne financial empire (symbol of American wealth) is under pressure, but fortunately for everyone weapons development has been maintained regardless, and it is the new generation killing machines (and specifically unmanned aerial vehicles) which are the real heroes of the movie. That is the take-home message.

There was much anti-enemy sentiment in cartoons & 3 Stooges (very anti-Nazi) during WW2, which was to be expected.
But the rest of your claim that these movies are propaganda I just don't buy. A good yarn made into a money making
movie will have parallels with the real world, but that doesn't make them intentional allegories or propaganda.

 

[Father Heathen]

What do you think about 300 in this regard?

Also written by frank miller.

 

[Revoltingest]

Now, here's some good propaganda (ca 1940).....
[youtube]n9k5v6bjwGA[/youtube]
The Three Stooges: Moe becomes hailstone dictator of moronica (he looks just like Hitler) - YouTube

 

[apophenia]

What do you think about 300 in this regard? especially in light of American-Iranian tensions?
The masculine and democratic Greeks against an empire of morally bankrupt Persians, led by a transvestite king. Sometimes it does seem that you're watching propaganda about current affairs when you pay a visit to the cinema.

I haven't seen 300. I did a quick google of Frank Miller yesterday, and noticed he was responsible for Robocop.

There are so many examples of 'politburo edutainment' (LOL ?) that I lose track. Certainly movie (and TV) makers are very aware of current affairs and the public mood, so it is inevitable that movies will reflect reality to some degree. I tend to think that savvy directors and producers know how the public want to interpret things, and sell them the spin they want to hear.

That is why I use the word complicity, rather than conspiracy.

It is a conspiracy, but it has no center, it is the hive doing its waggle dance. But not only that. There are also some very wealthy and powerful media merchants who finance the kinds of spin they want the befuddled masses to absorb. I don't think Rupert Murdoch is in the news business simply because it is a business - it is a business which gives him more power (and enduring power) over public opinion than most (any ?) politicians. People like Spielberg know they are carving indelible shapes into the public psyche.

The fact is, our brains are susceptible to advertising, and the line between the 6 o'clock news and the movies is just a line in the programme guide. As I said earlier, a significant proportion of the population (even the political leaders) believe in fabricated myths like The Rapture. Ronald Reagan comes to mind. He was a fruitcake ! And he was Hollywood. His presidency marked the irreversible conflation of Hollywood and the real world.

Despite all the facts known about 911, many Americans still feel that Iraq had to pay for 911. Why ? Why does the truth have no effect ? Because conditioned delusional paranoia reinforced by peer group belief is an uncurable mental illness. Ronald Reagan - "Facts are stupid things".

This is possibly the real cause of the downfall of America. It is a kind of dissociative mental illness on a mass scale. But it isn't seen as such because it is 'normal'.

I am serious about this. There is a theory that the Roman Empire fell because of brain damage caused by lead poisoning, from the use of lead kitchenware etc. It seems clear to me that the manipulation of mass belief via TV and Hollywood has created a mental illness which has rendered much of the population incapable of rational thought, certainly disinterested in it.

Have you ever seen that crazy christian TV cult ? They believe that god talks to the American people via TV and movies. I saw it reported about 20 years ago, and it was a revelation.

 

[apophenia]

Now, here's some good propaganda (ca 1940).....
[youtube]n9k5v6bjwGA[/youtube]
The Three Stooges: Moe becomes hailstone dictator of moronica (he looks just like Hitler) - YouTube

I'll see your Moronica and raise you a Freedonia !

[youtube]Dsw9jYU_rJI[/youtube]
Marx Brothers - Duck Soup - Rufus T Fireflys introduction - YouTube

 

[Music]

Just saw The Dark Night Rises.

What a load of bollocks.

This was clearly pay-as-you-go propaganda.

Not that people notice. I remember 'Starship Troopers' and the war against the Iraq-nid Empire. Those nasty insects in the desert ... I could not believe the stone cold poker-faced ignorance of people who told me I was a 'conspiracy theorist' when I pointed out that this was basically propaganda to support the idea of a second invasion of Iraq. I mean, come on people, Iraq-nids ?

Anyway, the Dark Knight, if you hadn't noticed,blatantly conflates the Occupy Wall Street movement and Al Quaeda as a single threat to American free-market capitalism. Bruce Wayne/Batman conflates the 1% super-wealthy (portrayed as self-sacrificing philanthropists) and the Military Industrial Complex (the wonderful armoury produced by Fox).

The evil Bain and the other inhabitants of The Pit look like arabs in their shawls etc (more Iraq-nids ?) and present in Wall St with the political philosophy of OWS.

The insane expenditure on arms (USA accounts for 41% of the planet earth's military budget) is justified with the lavish display of lethal techno-fetish in the name of protecting the good people of Gotham (give me a break).

Modern US culture has established an extraordinary new development in the world of propaganda - sell it with popcorn and coke. The herd just laps it up.

The audience just doesn't join the dots.

Plus the previous movie, dark knight, also shows joker=anarchist=bad guy.

 

[Sunstone]

More people are persuaded by propaganda than by reason. Frank Miller carries more weight than an Einstein.

 

[apophenia]

More people are persuaded by propaganda than by reason. Frank Miller carries more weight than an Einstein.

True.

Religion has historically been the prime mover in the world of propaganda - until Hollywood arrived. I hesitate at the suggestion that it is organised at a political level - it seems to almost eclipse political rhetoric and party politics, which could be seen as the stage between religion and 'entertainment'.

I don't think people think much about entertainment as propaganda - it conceals itself in shallowness, and doesn't wear such obvious team colors.

Have you read Doris Lessing's 'Canopus In Argos' series ? I am thinking primarily of the book "The Sentimental Agents of the Volyen Empire'. That book explored political propaganda from a big perspective. It's a shame she never wrote about Hollywood, it would have made good reading.

 

[Revoltingest]

Plus the previous movie, dark knight, also shows joker=anarchist=bad guy.

I don't buy it at all because Batman is a violent vigilante.
He's usually at odds with government, & he acts independently of authority.
Rather anarchistic behavior, eh?

 

[YmirGF]

The audience just doesn't join the dots.

News flash, apophenia! It's from Holllywood. What, exactly, do you expect?

 

[Revoltingest]

News flash, apophenia! It's from Holllywood. What, exactly, do you expect?

And what director or writer doesn't have some political persuasion?
Dang near any popular movie can be seen as propaganda (except Empire).

 

[apophenia]

News flash, apophenia! It's from Holllywood. What, exactly, do you expect?

And what director or writer doesn't have some political persuasion?
Dang near any popular movie can be seen as propaganda (except Empire).

Both of those comments seem to miss my point.

To suggest that it isn't propaganda because it's Hollywood is like saying Blackwater aren't military because they're a private enterprise.

And yes, I know that any form of art has a social agenda. The significant point is that Hollywood and TV are major shaping forces of the community psyche, and are taking the place of religion and political rhetoric in that process. And they do it by stealth - the audience is seduced into passive reception, and the political agenda is not necessarily flagged as such.

Until recently art didn't have that degree of impact, unless it was specifically and overtly in the service of religion or political rhetoric. And when it was overtly in the service of religion (icons arguably had more power than text in a context of an illiterate community ) or political rhetoric (the posters during Mao's revolution for example), it was clearly the sharp end of a philosophical wedge.

So yes ymirGF, it is Hollywood ( well duh ! I had noticed), and yes Revoltingest, movies in general could be seen as propaganda - as could everything posted here on the forums if you want to make that argument - but these forums don't have the reach to be socially significant.

To dismiss the idea that it is powerful, nation-shaping propaganda with the arguments "it's just Hollywood" or "all public expression can be seen as propaganda" is to miss one of the most significant developments in modern history.

Maybe it is just too close, too familiar, to be seen clearly.

I am not suggesting that it is an evil scheme emanating from a monolithic source. I made clear that it is complicity rather than conspiracy. It is more like a positive feedback loop which can take a tendency and amplify it, similar to Tesla's oscillators tuned to the resonant frequency of a structure - the result of a continuous reinforcement can be a destructive level of force. That is how propaganda works. Find a tendency and amplify it with consistently applied stimulus.

A pathological tendency is not necessarily deliberate. And a mechanism can be potentially helpful or harmful depending on its application.

 

[Quagmire]

I don't buy it at all because Batman is a violent vigilante.
He's usually at odds with government, & he acts independently of authority.
Rather anarchistic behavior, eh?

Then again, his "I am above the law" attitude could be interpreted differently if you apply it to a global scenario.