Bayání Gnosticism

[Firemorphic]

Any other Muslims here interested in the work of Siyyid `Alí Muhammad Shírází? (often falsely referred to as "Babism", named after Shírází's designation as "The Bab" (The Gate).

The Twelfth Imam in Islamic faith, Muhammad son of Imam Askari, called by the Shi'a the Mahdi (the guided One), and the Qaim (He Who Arises), succeeded his father in the Imamate in the year (A.D. 813-814).



He at once disappeared from view and communicated with his followers through an intermediary known as a Gate (BÂB). Four of the Gates followed one another in order. The Fourth Gate appointed no successor, and on his death all communication between the Imam and his followers ceased. The Shi'as believe that the Imam still lives in some mysterious retreat, and will reappear in the fullness of time to establish a millennium throughout the world. The Imam is therefore called the absent Imam.



According to the Doctrine of the Imamate of the Shias or the "Church of the Twelve" (مذهب اثنی عشری) the office of the Khalifa of the prophet is a spiritual one; an office conferred by god alone, first by his prophet and afterwards by those who succeeded him.Twelve persons successively held the office of Imam. The twelfth Imam was Muhammad, son of Imam Hasan Askari and Narjis Khatun, called by the Shia 'Imam Mahdi', 'Hujjatullah (The Proof of God), 'Qaim-i Al-i Muhammad' (He who shall arise of the family of Muhammad), 'Sahib-al-Zaman' (The Lord of the Age). He succeeded his father in the Imamate A.H. 260. The Shia hold that he did not die, but disappeared from view and communicated with his followers through a chosen few, who, one after another, acted as channels of communication between him and his followers.


These persons were known as 'Gates' (ابواب) and were four in number[1]. The last of the 'Gates' was Abul-Hasan-Ali who did not nominate a successor saying 'God hath a purpose which He will accomplish'. On his death all communication between the twelfth Imam and his Church ceased and the 'Major occultation' (Ghaybat-i Kubra) set in and will continue until the return of the absent Twelfth Imam. The Shia hold that he still lives in one of those mysterious cities, Jabulqa and Jubolsa. The Shia awaits the appearance of the Qaim or the absent Imam.


According to the Sheikhi school which was a precursor to the new manifestation (of Bayanic faith) basic principals of the Islamic faith were four:

(1) Unity of god,

(2) Belief in Prophethood,

(3) Belief in the Imamate, and

(4) The Fourth support namely that there must be amongst the Shia someone 'Perfect Shia' (شیعه کامل) to serve as a channel of grace' between the absent Twelfth Imam and his church.


Shaykh Ahmad was succeeded by Sayyid Kazim, who, on his death appointed no successor.



When, at the beginning of his mission in 1844, Sayyid Ali Muhammad declared himself to be the BÂB (Gate) this title was misconceived by Moslem and European historians of the BÂBi movement.

They took for granted that he was Gate in the traditional sense of the word, or a channel of grace in the Shaykhi meaning of the word and a successor to Sayyid Kazim.



When Qaim at a later stage of his mission, Sayyid Ali Muhammad declared to be the Qaim this title was again misconceived by Moslems and European Historians of the BÂBi movement. They took for granted that he was the Absent Imam himself.



According to him, god revealed Himself in the person of His Manifestation, Sayyid Ali Muhammad, Him-Who-Has-Appeared.

The title BÂB taken by Him at the beginning of his mission in 1844 meant that he was the gate of god. The Sun of Truth, Sayyid Ali Muhammad appeared under the name of Gateship in the manifestation of the Bayan.



The title Mahdi taken by him, meant that he was the Promised One foretold by Muhammad.

The title Qaim taken by Him meant that 'He was Him Who Prevails Over All Men' (قائم بر کل نفس) and whose arising is the resurrection.



The true nature of his claim, made known by him by implication and intimation in his First Book of 1844, and made crystal clear in the Bayan, is that Sayyid Ali Muhammad was the person of His manifestation, Him-Who-Has-Appeared.





The 18 disciples of the Primal Point did not look on him as the Imam . The Primal Point spoke of himself as the Qaim in the sense that he was the author of a new resurrection.

The Primal Point did not consider himself as an Imam but as a prophet. God reveals Himself in the person of His Manifestation, whom the Primal Point calls He-Who-Has-Appeared and He-Whom-God-Will-Make-Manifest (Persian Bayan Exordium, p.2). As regards their human personality these poems differ in different cycles, but that which speaks in them is the Primal Volition that undergoes no change (Persian Bayan vii, 10).


In his book entitled 'The Five Grades', page 11 the Primal Point describes the significance of his names:

"You named me after that which has a numerical value of five (i.e. BAB) since you had set four Gates for me; Then, after these years, you made me manifest over all things by the name Qaim and elevated the mention of your self in the year five with glory. In the sixth year, you mentioned the name of your self, your glorious and mighty name."



The Primal Point, has two stations: The station of divinity (مقام الوهیت) in the realm of Names and attributes, where the Point is the Mouthpiece of god and utters 'Verily, I am God; there is none other but Me; All beside me is my Creation' and the station of Creation (خلق), where the Point worships god as a creature.

(source: bayanic.com)

Now, this thread is to discuss the Bayan within the context of Islam (not the Baha'i Faith's later claim to it's legacy, and subversion of). Within Twelver Islam, the Bayan can be seen on the esoteric and philosophical limits, in the sense that it is an innovative revelation but still remains part of Islam. However despite this, it is often considered a new religion, on the basis of heterodox aspects. The Bab's work is immense, with incredible tafsir of the Qur'an to hymns/prayers, alchemical, mystical and a bit Gnostic. Much of it is not yet translated into English and that which has been, is contestable. In it's original Arabic, the Bab displays an absolutely astounding use of language, cyphers and cryptic juxtapositions.

For those Muslims here that have heard or studied his work, what do you think?

 

[Firemorphic]

(from the Gnostic DIR...):


Preceded by the Shaykhi movement, the Bayani Gnostic Sect of Twelver Shia Islam was founded on revelation from a man named Siyyid (Ali Muhammad) Shirazi, in Iran. He is usually referred to as "The Bab" (The Gate), according to the revelation of the Gate of the Hidden Imam (of Islamic Eschatology).

The position of The Bab's work and legacy of Bayani Gnosticism, rests within the esoteric limits of Twelver Shia Esotericism- or the Batin. His revelation claimed a new cycle (or aeon) of theophany (manifestations of the divine) with the philosophy of The Primal Point* (Allah, Islamically), or Logos. In his revelation/teaching there are endless manifestations or theophany's of the divine Will, he proclaimed that there would be another "whom god would make manifest" unspecified but prophesied within 1511-2001 years of his death.
His thought encompassed Shi'ite Pythagorean, neo-Platonic, Gnostic, Alchemical, Hermetic and Kabbalistic genius. In his prolific span of writings, referred to as "the Bayan", the Bab wrote Qur'anic Tafsir, Mantras, prayers, ordinances. His successor Sudh-i-Azal was also a magnificent poet too.
His writings (in Arabic and Persian) display an incredibly complex use of gematria and letter magic, thought to rival the Qur'an.

The immediately significant texts are the "Arabic Bayan", the "Persian Bayan", the "Book of the Five Grades" (Kitab-i-panj sha'n), "Tafsir on the Surah of Yusuf" (Qayyumu'l-asma).

The essence of the aim of Bayání Gnosticism is that of The Great Work of Alchemy, the elixir of life and gnosis.

Because of it's esoteric nature, it is easy to see that his life was only met with hostility by the orthodox Sunni and Shia's in Iran. He was misunderstood, proclaimed to be a heretic and a disbeliever and his life ended with execution. (this is a history in itself but this thread is more about his theosophy, theophany, revelation and doctrine)

Like notable Sufi's such as Ibn Arabi, his doctrines function within the esoteric framework of Orthodox Islam (for Arabi it was Sunni, for the Bab it was Twelver Shi'ism). His work gets at the essence of Shahada, the essence of the Twelve Imams and Islamic Eschatology. In part, offering up a viable answer to the endless problems with the Exoteric dimension of religion, inevitably the thing that killed him.


(*The primal point is the part of God/Godhead that proclaims "Verily, I am God; there is none other but Me; All beside me is my Creation" )

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

I have read hundreds of pages of his works in both Persian and Arabic. I can only say that I wasn't the least impressed. Many of his works are unintelligible others are completely meaningless that defy Arabic grammar. And let's not forget that he claims he is God. In his last work the Lawh-i Haykal al-din he explicitly states:

“Verily, `Alī before Nabīl (i.e. himself, the Bāb) is the Essence of God and His Being (‘inna `Alī qabl al-Nabīl dhāt Allāh wa kaynūniyyatih),” The Bāb, Lauḥ haykal al-dīn (n.p.: n.p., n.d.), p. 5.

He also states in his will that he is God and that his successor Azal is also God:

The Primal Point’s Will and Testament

These are the opening statements:

• Name of Azal, testify that there is no God but I, the dearest beloved.

• Then testify that there is no God but you, the victorious and permanent.

 

[Firemorphic]

Interesting, I have come across that criticism before. Again though, the nature of his statement is esoteric in that he claims to be a theophanic manifestation, a beacon of Gnosis (much like Muhammad and Ali, the Twelve Imams, and Jesus before, etc) but not God itself (not in the way Christians usually interpret Jesus to be "God", which would be outright shirk)

Btw, this is a current area of interest, it's highly intriguing - theologically, eschatologically and metaphysically

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

Interesting, I have come across that criticism before. Again though, the nature of his statement is esoteric in that he claims to be a theophanic manifestation, a beacon of Gnosis (much like Muhammad and Ali, the Twelve Imams, and Jesus before, etc) but not God itself (not in the way Christians usually interpret Jesus to be "God", which would be outright shirk)

Btw, this is a current area of interest, it's highly intriguing - theologically, eschatologically and metaphysically

In Shia belief theophany is strictly denied. Yes some Sufis/Mystics do make such claims but within Shia hadith and the sayings of the prophet and Imams, you will not find anything that can be considered as sorts of theophanic manifestationhood. And there is also no esotericsm involved when Shia Imams speak about God. It always sums up to this: He is He and we are His totally weak and helpless creations and have nothing in common with each other. God does not manifest Himself to anyone not even the Prophet except to their hearts and that is not in a manner that one could go about claiming to be God or his essence as the Bab and Baha'u'llah do. That is my understanding of Shia Islam.

 

[Wahid Azal]

I have read hundreds of pages of his works in both Persian and Arabic. I can only say that I wasn't the least impressed. Many of his works are unintelligible others are completely meaningless that defy Arabic grammar. And let's not forget that he claims he is God. In his last work the Lawh-i Haykal al-din he explicitly states:

“Verily, `Alī before Nabīl (i.e. himself, the Bāb) is the Essence of God and His Being (‘inna `Alī qabl al-Nabīl dhāt Allāh wa kaynūniyyatih),” The Bāb, Lauḥ haykal al-dīn (n.p.: n.p., n.d.), p. 5.

He also states in his will that he is God and that his successor Azal is also God:

The Primal Point’s Will and Testament

These are the opening statements:

• Name of Azal, testify that there is no God but I, the dearest beloved.

• Then testify that there is no God but you, the victorious and permanent.

The correct translation actually is (you are quoting Manuchehri's garbled translation whose grasp of classical Arabic, let alone the Bab's Arabic, is questionable):

Verily O Name of the Pre-Eternal, for I testify upon this that there is no other god but I the Tremendous, the Beloved!
انّ يا اسم الازل فاشد على انّه لا اله الا انا العزيز المحبوب

Then, I testify that there is no god but Thee the Protector, the Peerless Self-Subsistent!
ثمّ اشهد على انّه لا اله الا انت المُهيمن القيوم

My translation of this document from 2004: The Will and Testament of the the Bāb (d. 1850)

And as I type this message I am listening to the divine voice of Freddie Mercury

 

[Wahid Azal]

In Shia belief theophany is strictly denied.

Really? Then please explain the multiple riwayat (i.e. Shi'i hadith) and line after line after line after line of d'ua where the mas'umin (ع) instance the tajalliyat'ullah (the theophanies/self-disclosures of God). Divine theophany/self-disclosure (tajalli) is the foundation of Shi'i theology and metaphysics. Here is a famous line from the du'a-s-simat (The Supplication of the Signs) (often attributed to the 5th Imam and also to 'Ali ع) where the concept is invoked:

وَ بِمَجْدِكَ الَّذي تَجَلَّيْتَ بِهِ لِمُوسى كَليمِكَ عَلَيْهِ السَّلامُ في طُورِ سَيْناءَ
And by Thy Glory which was Self-Disclosed by Thee to Moses Thy interlocutor, upon Him be peace, on Mount Sinai (my trans.)

The whole concept of divine theophany/the self-disclosure of God occurs in the Qur'an itself. This concept was not invented by the Sufis. It is a foundation of quranic theology and a central teaching of the Ahl al-Bayt (ع) Themselves. Really, Shi'i Muslims ought to know better than to say "in Shi'a belief theophany is strictly denied."

 

[Wahid Azal]

And there is also no esotericsm involved when Shia Imams speak about God.

From 'Ali (ع)

أَنَا عَيْنُ اللَّهِ وَ أَنَا وَجْهُ اللَّهِ وَ أَنَا يَدُ اللَّهِ وَ أَنَا جَنْبُ اللَّهِ وَ أَنَا بَابُ اللَّه
I am the Eye of God and I am the Face of God and I am the Hand of God and I am the Container of God and I am the Gate of God!

(From al-Kafi, bab al-nawadir, vol.1, hadith no.8)

And the khabar before it is attributed to al-Sâdiq (ع) and is saying identically the same thing. Now this one:

From al-Sâdiq (ع)

إنّ امْرَنا هُوَ الحَقْ و حَقْ الحَقْ و هُوَ الـّظاهِر الباطِن و باطِن الباطِن و هُوَ سِرّ و سِرّ الـّسِرّ و سِرّ مُستسِرّ و سرّ مُقَنـّع بِالـّسرّ
Verily Our Cause is the Truth and the Truth of the Truth, and it is the Manifest and the Hidden, and the Hidden of the Hidden, and it is a Secret and the Secret of the Secret, and a secreted Secret, and a Secret concealed by another Secret.

(Cited in The Degrees of the Visualizations (basâ’ir al-darajât), hadîth no.4, (comp.) Saffâr al-Qummî) (my trans.)

It always sums up to this: He is He and we are His totally weak and helpless creations and have nothing in common with each other. God does not manifest Himself to anyone not even the Prophet except to their hearts .

Then explain surat'ul-najm 53:11
مَا كَذَبَ الْفُؤَادُ مَا رَأَىٰ
The Blaze-Flux/Subtle Heart-Flux (fu'ad) did not lie regarding what it saw.

The statement is not a mere metaphoric abstraction or flourish that can just as well be substituted by other imagery. The statement is unequivocal that the Prophet (ص) saw (i.e. percieved, apprehended) the All-High in the locus of the Supreme Horizon through the special organ of the heart which I have glossed above with the translation 'blaze-flux/subtle heart-flux'.

Esotericism is at the animating core of pristine Shi'ism because the doctrine of walaya takwiniya (existential providential guidance/vicegerency), i.e. High Imamology, is the pivot upon which pristine Shi'ism turns since one of the titles the Imam (ع) is known by is as the Speaking Qur'an (quran a-natiq) to the Silent Qur'an (quran al-samit) which is the text itself.

 

[spirit_of_dawn]

The correct translation actually is (you are quoting Manuchehri's garbled translation whose grasp of classical Arabic, let alone the Bab's Arabic, is questionable):

Verily O Name of the Pre-Eternal, for I testify upon this that there is no other god but I the Tremendous, the Beloved!
انّ يا اسم الازل فاشد على انّه لا اله الا انا العزيز المحبوب

Then, I testify that there is no god but Thee the Protector, the Peerless Self-Subsistent!
ثمّ اشهد على انّه لا اله الا انت المُهيمن القيوم

My translation of this document from 2004: The Will and Testament of the the Bāb (d. 1850)

And as I type this message I am listening to the divine voice of Freddie Mercury

Hi Wahid,

Whatever translation that we accept, the claim of Godhood is still there.

Really? Then please explain the multiple riwayat (i.e. Shi'i hadith) and line after line after line after line of d'ua where the mas'umin (ع) instance the tajalliyat'ullah (the theophanies/self-disclosures of God). Divine theophany/self-disclosure (tajalli) is the foundation of Shi'i theology and metaphysics. Here is a famous line from the du'a-s-simat (The Supplication of the Signs) (often attributed to the 5th Imam and also to 'Ali ع) where the concept is invoked:

وَ بِمَجْدِكَ الَّذي تَجَلَّيْتَ بِهِ لِمُوسى كَليمِكَ عَلَيْهِ السَّلامُ في طُورِ سَيْناءَ
And by Thy Glory which was Self-Disclosed by Thee to Moses Thy interlocutor, upon Him be peace, on Mount Sinai (my trans.)

The whole concept of divine theophany/the self-disclosure of God occurs in the Qur'an itself. This concept was not invented by the Sufis. It is a foundation of quranic theology and a central teaching of the Ahl al-Bayt (ع) Themselves. Really, Shi'i Muslims ought to know better than to say "in Shi'a belief theophany is strictly denied."

The Dua that you have quoted speaks about "God's Glory". "Glory" is not an inherent attribute of God, it is a Created one. When God Self-Disclosed this to Moses, He was merely disclosing One of His creations to Moses, albeit a very Great one. He was not making Himself manifest to Moses and there was no theophany occurring.

From 'Ali (ع)

أَنَا عَيْنُ اللَّهِ وَ أَنَا وَجْهُ اللَّهِ وَ أَنَا يَدُ اللَّهِ وَ أَنَا جَنْبُ اللَّهِ وَ أَنَا بَابُ اللَّه
I am the Eye of God and I am the Face of God and I am the Hand of God and I am the Container of God and I am the Gate of God!

(From al-Kafi, bab al-nawadir, vol.1, hadith no.8)

And the khabar before it is attributed to al-Sâdiq (ع) and is saying identically the same thing. Now this one:

From al-Sâdiq (ع)

إنّ امْرَنا هُوَ الحَقْ و حَقْ الحَقْ و هُوَ الـّظاهِر الباطِن و باطِن الباطِن و هُوَ سِرّ و سِرّ الـّسِرّ و سِرّ مُستسِرّ و سرّ مُقَنـّع بِالـّسرّ
Verily Our Cause is the Truth and the Truth of the Truth, and it is the Manifest and the Hidden, and the Hidden of the Hidden, and it is a Secret and the Secret of the Secret, and a secreted Secret, and a Secret concealed by another Secret.

(Cited in The Degrees of the Visualizations (basâ’ir al-darajât), hadîth no.4, (comp.) Saffâr al-Qummî) (my trans.)



Then explain surat'ul-najm 53:11
مَا كَذَبَ الْفُؤَادُ مَا رَأَىٰ
The Blaze-Flux/Subtle Heart-Flux (fu'ad) did not lie regarding what it saw.

The statement is not a mere metaphoric abstraction or flourish that can just as well be substituted by other imagery. The statement is unequivocal that the Prophet (ص) saw (i.e. percieved, apprehended) the All-High in the locus of the Supreme Horizon through the special organ of the heart which I have glossed above with the translation 'blaze-flux/subtle heart-flux'.

Esotericism is at the animating core of pristine Shi'ism because the doctrine of walaya takwiniya (existential providential guidance/vicegerency), i.e. High Imamology, is the pivot upon which pristine Shi'ism turns since one of the titles the Imam (ع) is known by is as the Speaking Qur'an (quran a-natiq) to the Silent Qur'an (quran al-samit) which is the text itself.

Wahj allah, Yad Allah, Ain Allah and etc. are not God. They are all creations. Again this is no theophany.

The hadith from basâ’ir al-darajât also shows no degree of theophany.

The verse from Surat al-najm doesn't convey the meaning that you think it conveys. Imam Reza Peace be Upon him has interpreted it in a hadith in al-Kafi. He explicitly states that it was not God that Muhammad saw but one of God's great signs as has been affirmed in verse 18 of surat al-najm: "Verily he saw from the Great Signs of his Lord". Here you can read the Hadith in Arabic:

الكافي 1 95 باب في إبطال الرؤية ..... ص : 95
2- أَحْمَدُ بْنُ إِدْرِيسَ عَنْ مُحَمَّدِ بْنِ عَبْدِ الْجَبَّارِ عَنْ صَفْوَانَ بْنِ يَحْيَى قَالَ سَأَلَنِي أَبُو قُرَّةَ الْمُحَدِّثُ أَنْ أُدْخِلَهُ عَلَى أَبِي الْحَسَنِ الرِّضَا ع فَاسْتَأْذَنْتُهُ فِي ذَلِكَ فَأَذِنَ لِي فَدَخَلَ عَلَيْهِ فَسَأَلَهُ عَنِ الْحَلَالَ وَ الْحَرَامِ وَ الْأَحْكَامِ حَتَّى بَلَغَ سُؤَالُهُ إِلَى التَّوْحِيدِ فَقَالَ أَبُو قُرَّةَ إِنَّا رُوِّينَا أَنَّ اللَّهَ قَسَمَ الرُّؤْيَةَ وَ الْكَلَامَ بَيْنَ نَبِيَّيْنِ فَقَسَمَ الْكَلَامَ لِمُوسَى وَ لِمُحَمَّدٍ الرُّؤْيَةَ فَقَالَ أَبُو الْحَسَنِ ع فَمَنِ الْمُبَلِّغُ عَنِ اللَّهِ إِلَى الثَّقَلَيْنِ مِنَ الْجِنِّ وَ الْإِنْسِ لَا تُدْرِكُهُ الْأَبْصَارُ وَ لَا يُحِيطُونَ بِهِ عِلْماً وَ لَيْسَ كَمِثْلِهِ شَيْ‏ءٌ أَ لَيْسَ مُحَمَّدٌ قَالَ بَلَى قَالَ كَيْفَ يَجِي‏ءُ رَجُلٌ إِلَى الْخَلْقِ جَمِيعاً فَيُخْبِرُهُمْ أَنَّهُ جَاءَ مِنْ عِنْدِ اللَّهِ وَ أَنَّهُ يَدْعُوهُمْ إِلَى اللَّهِ بِأَمْرِ اللَّهِ فَيَقُولُ لَا تُدْرِكُهُ الْأَبْصَارُ وَ لَا يُحِيطُونَ بِهِ عِلْماً وَ لَيْسَ كَمِثْلِهِ شَيْ‏ءٌ ثُمَّ يَقُولُ أَنَا رَأَيْتُهُ بِعَيْنِي وَ أَحَطْتُ بِهِ عِلْماً وَ هُوَ عَلَى صُورَةِ الْبَشَرِ أَ مَا تَسْتَحُونَ مَا قَدَرَتِ الزَّنَادِقَةُ أَنْ تَرْمِيَهُ بِهَذَا أَنْ يَكُونَ يَأْتِي مِنْ عِنْدِ اللَّهِ بِشَيْ‏ءٍ ثُمَّ يَأْتِي بِخِلَافِهِ مِنْ وَجْهٍ آخَرَ قَالَ أَبُو قُرَّةَ فَإِنَّهُ يَقُولُ وَ لَقَدْ رَآهُ نَزْلَةً أُخْرى‏ فَقَالَ أَبُو الْحَسَنِ ع إِنَّ بَعْدَ هَذِهِ الْآيَةِ مَا يَدُلُّ عَلَى مَا رَأَى حَيْثُ قَالَ ما كَذَبَ الْفُؤادُ ما رَأى‏ يَقُولُ مَا كَذَبَ فُؤَادُ مُحَمَّدٍ مَا رَأَتْ عَيْنَاهُ ثُمَّ أَخْبَرَ بِمَا رَأَى فَقَالَ لَقَدْ رَأى‏ مِنْ آياتِ رَبِّهِ الْكُبْرى‏ فَآيَاتُ اللَّهِ غَيْرُ اللَّهِ وَ قَدْ قَالَ اللَّهُ وَ لا يُحِيطُونَ بِهِ عِلْماً فَإِذَا رَأَتْهُ الْأَبْصَارُ فَقَدْ أَحَاطَتْ بِهِ الْعِلْمُ وَ وَقَعَتِ الْمَعْرِفَةُ فَقَالَ أَبُو قُرَّةَ فَتُكَذِّبُ بِالرِّوَايَاتِ فَقَالَ أَبُو الْحَسَنِ ع إِذَا كَانَتِ الرِّوَايَاتُ مُخَالِفَةً لِلْقُرْآنِ كَذَّبْتُهَا وَ مَا أَجْمَعَ الْمُسْلِمُونَ عَلَيْهِ أَنَّهُ لَا يُحَاطُ بِهِ عِلْماً وَ لَا تُدْرِكُهُ الْأَبْصَارُ وَ لَيْسَ كَمِثْلِهِ شَيْ‏

 

[Wahid Azal]

بِاسم ربّ الباقر ع

Hi Wahid,

Whatever translation that we accept, the claim of Godhood is still there.

Theopathic claims are replete throughout our riwayat. There is no hawzavi spin that can change the implication of We are the Face of God (نحن وجه الله) uttered by at least three of the Infallibles (ع) as recorded in al-Kafi. The problem is there is a gross misunderstanding by many contemporary Shi'i of what this even means because there are very few people around anymore who actually appreciate the heart of tashayyu' which is 'irfan and not fiqh; and because fiqh and not 'irfan has been made the centerpiece, theopathic statements by the Infallibles (ع) or even others are put through a very narrow and materialistic logic of the Aristotelian excluded middle, which is precisely how such things are not supposed to be interpreted or understood.

The Dua that you have quoted speaks about "God's Glory". "Glory" is not an inherent attribute of God,

The Supplication of the Signs takes the masdar j-l-l or j-l (from which we get the noun jalal, meaning "majesty" and not "glory") and makes an active verb from which the word and the concept of self-disclosure/theophany is derived. So *tajalli* means the manifestation of majesty or light because j-l also denotes light and is a synonym such that (just like the Greek phos) a tajalli means an appearance of light. This is briefly what the concept of theophany means. I believe you have confused incarnationism (hululiyah) with theophanology, which are two totally different ideas. Theophanology is not incarnationism.

Wahj allah, Yad Allah, Ain Allah and etc. are not God. They are all creations. Again this is no theophany.

Refer to my comment above regarding Aristotelian excluded middles not being an adequate methodology to understand any of this stuff.

The hadith from basâ’ir al-darajât also shows no degree of theophany.

Ahem, Siyyid Haydar Amuli (ر), Hafiz Rajab Bursi (ر), Ibn Abi Jumhur al-Ahsa'i (ر), Mulla Sadra (ر), Muhsin Fayz Kashani (ر), Qadi Sa'id Qummi (ر), Shaykh Ahmad al-Ahsa'i (ر), Ayatollah Shahabadi (ر) and his student the illustrious Ayatollah Ruhallah Khomeini (ر) as well as a plethora of other Shi'i 'urafa with a long textual tradition of commentary on this specific khabar (including one unpublished by this haqir) would seriously beg to differ.

The verse from Surat al-najm doesn't convey the meaning that you think it conveys. Imam Reza Peace be Upon him has interpreted it in a hadith in al-Kafi. He explicitly states that it was not God that Muhammad saw but one of God's great signs

Again, you are applying a weak Aristotelian method to both misinterpret and simultaneously misunderstand the specific ayah of al-Najm in question as well as what al-Rida (ع) has to say about it. No one has asserted that the totality of the All-High is (or was) perceived because that would involve perception of the Totalizing Infinite which simultaneously comprehends a pre-eternality (azaliyah) as well as a post-eternality (abadiyah). In other words, the Essence of the All-High -- i.e. the Hidden Ipseity (ذات هوية) -- is beyond all approach because it is precisely that station wherein 'Ali (ع) states occurs the perfection of tawhid in the negation of all Names and Attributes. However, there are infinite stations below that unapproachable station of absolute transcendence (tanzih al-mutlaq or hadara ahadiyah la bi-shart), and it is in those stations of manifestation where the apperceptions of the All-High occur within the realization of the Names and Attributes such that a particular locus of manifestation (i.e. a single Name or Attribute) then becomes the mirror or window by which in its particularized locus to the Infinite, the Infinite Itself is apprehended in the situs of the limited. So in such a station were the locus (which is the situs of the self-disclosure/theophany) to claim to be the Infinite, it is in fact the Infinite revealing Itself through it rather than the limited containing It. This is a meaning to "All-things perish but His Face" (كلّ شئ هالك الا وجهه) (28:88) becase nothing already-always exists but Him. Be that as it may, this is what theophanology entails as opposed to incarnationism which is a thoroughly confused and metaphysically unsophisticated point of departure.

Additionally, when we are dealing with any of the Infallibles (ع), we are dealing with Those who occupy the station of the Perfect Human Being (insan al-kamil): the insan al-kamil being the repository of all the Names and Attributes of God in the created realms, hence why tawalla to the Imam (ع) in the created realms is tawalla to the All-High Itself. In other words, to echo the Hermetic maxim, as Above, so below, in tashayyu' we also simultaneously say regarding tawalla, as below, so Above; meaning, the tawalla is in essence the reenactment of the Covenant of Alast within the heart of the true mu'min, and so this is why the Imam (ع) becomes the Face of God, the Hand of God, the Eye of God, the Gate of God, etc.

 

[mojtaba]

Hi brothers.

Thank you for sharing your beliefs.

Dear bayani brothers, espacially Vahid Azal, what you talk about Asma'ollah, Maqam Al-Ahadiyyah and Al-Wahediyyah, etc. are nothing but the beliefs of Ibn Arabi. They are not the saying of infallibles (as).


Also, those Dua and Hadiths are not authentic. In addition, the book of Basa'ir Al-Darajaat is an unauthentic book.

Wassalam.

 

[Wahid Azal]

بِاسم ربّ اهل العصمة ع

Hi brothers.

Thank you for sharing your beliefs.

Dear bayani brothers, espacially Vahid Azal, what you talk about Asma'ollah, Maqam Al-Ahadiyyah and Al-Wahediyyah, etc. are nothing but the beliefs of Ibn Arabi. They are not the saying of infallibles (as).


Also, those Dua and Hadiths are not authentic. In addition, the book of Basa'ir Al-Darajaat is an unauthentic book.

Wassalam.

Ibn 'Arabi was a crypto-Shi'i and if you have studied his works to any degree of depth, you would know that he was actively utilizing the terminology of the Ahl al-Bayt (ع) in delineating his metaphysical system. Two of the great modern scholars of Ibn 'Arabi, the late Osman Yahya (d. 1995) and Henry Corbin (d. 1978), believed this to be the case. Generations of Shi'i scholars from Siyyid Haydar Amuli (ر) all the way to the present with giants such as Hasanzadih Amuli also believed the same.

As for the belief in the inauthenticity of the Basa'ir al-Darajat, this and similar views emerged during the period of the Alam al-Huda Sharif al-Murtada (d. 1044) who did more than any other Shi'i figure to sunnify mainstream ithna 'ashari Shi'ism. Anyone genuinely interested in pristine Shi'ism should view such opinions with suspicion. These views have also become entrenched as the predominant view of the Usuli establishment of fuqaha who also have problems with such early material like the Basa'ir al-Darajat or the Kitab Sulaym ibn Qays al-Hillali and similar.

 

[Link]

To the post above, Ibn Arabi was not Shiite brother, he was more of a "mystic" type Muslim and interprets so much like freemasons do of Quran. For example, the way he interprets "revelation" is different then Muslims. He sees it metaphorical, but that it's from Mohammad really and that "it's from God" in the same way when Quran says "You did not throw when you threw but Allah threw".

Khomeini like wise interpreted revelation like that, and you can see this in Adadabas Salah in his talk of Tanzil and Gabriel (the laylatal Qadr section). And Gabriel from a higher order true, and they believe the system from God, but most Muslims and it's the truth, when we believe Quran is revealed by God believe it's actually only from God and Gabriel is but a Messenger in that regard to Mohammad who is but a recipient of divine revelation and is designated to deliver it's message to the people.

They are planting seeds of evil all these people to re-interpret Quran the way all holy books become corrupted and instead of giving the authority to the chosen ones, purity is attributed to other then those who God manifested and attributed purity to, verses divorced from their context, and it's going to make way to the freemasons interpretation of Quran.

Sufi mystics are for the most part of this order. There are exceptions, but you must wake up brother.

The mystics and Freemasons see Gabriel as a way to have delivered Mohammad to himself so that the revelation unfolded in himself, and they see revelation from Gabriel as a helper from God, and that from God in the same way all guidance is from God, etc.....

Brother, it took me a long time to see the plans coming about in the world.

Brother hold on to Quran and the blessed sayings of Ahlulbayt (as) together, and do not go to doors of God through doors he has not appointed.

 

[mojtaba]

To the post above, Ibn Arabi was not Shiite brother, he was more of a "mystic" type Muslim and interprets so much like freemasons do of Quran. For example, the way he interprets "revelation" is different then Muslims. He sees it metaphorical, but that it's from Mohammad really and that "it's from God" in the same way when Quran says "You did not throw when you threw but Allah threw".

Khomeini like wise interpreted revelation like that, and you can see this in Adadabas Salah in his talk of Tanzil and Gabriel (the laylatal Qadr section). And Gabriel from a higher order true, and they believe the system from God, but most Muslims and it's the truth, when we believe Quran is revealed by God believe it's actually only from God and Gabriel is but a Messenger in that regard to Mohammad who is but a recipient of divine revelation and is designated to deliver it's message to the people.

They are planting seeds of evil all these people to re-interpret Quran the way all holy books become corrupted and instead of giving the authority to the chosen ones, purity is attributed to other then those who God manifested and attributed purity to, verses divorced from their context, and it's going to make way to the freemasons interpretation of Quran.

Sufi mystics are for the most part of this order. There are exceptions, but you must wake up brother.

The mystics and Freemasons see Gabriel as a way to have delivered Mohammad to himself so that the revelation unfolded in himself, and they see revelation from Gabriel as a helper from God, and that from God in the same way all guidance is from God, etc.....

Brother, it took me a long time to see the plans coming about in the world.

Brother hold on to Quran and the blessed sayings of Ahlulbayt (as) together, and do not go to doors of God through doors he has not appointed.

Hi brother.

Do you mean that Ibn Arabi and Imam Khomeini (ra) believed that Quran is indeed from the mind of Prophet (s) and not from Allah (swt)?

 

[Link]

Hi brother.

Do you mean that Ibn Arabi and Imam Khomeini (ra) believed that Quran is indeed from the mind of Prophet (s) and not from Allah (swt)?

I'm saying they interpret "from God" differently then us. Ibn Arabi for sure didn't believe it to be directly revealed, but had this concept that it was unveiled from God by God to God and what that meant is Gabriel was God's light, Mohammad was God's light, and Gabriel unveiled the light of Mohammad to Mohammad.

This also true, but it has nothing to do with the words of Quran being from God. For example, see Khomeini comment most people take "we revealed" meaning God ordered Gabriel to reveal the Quran but what it really means is the whole house of realization (all of creation) is God's act, etc, etc....

Brother, when Bani-Israel started leaving the true Creator for Baal, it was through systematic layers of deception that lead to that.

Satan is in hell forever, and will not be forgiven as Sufis say, nor will he ever enter paradise. Hate him with all your heart or he will defeat you.

Hell is forever, and not for just eons, like Sufis say, and fear it, lest you perish.

God is to be attributed the truth and everything in it's proper place is seen through relying on God and his rope. Go to misleading doors, and havoc will come about.

 

[mojtaba]

Dear brother, thank you for your recommendations. But know that I am not Sufi and do not believe in Ibn Arabi.

Brother, you should know that Imam Khomeini (ra) never meant that Gabriel (as) didn't reveal Quran to Prophet (s). I wanted to elaborate the meaning of the saying of Imam Khomeini (ra), but I saw that it needs different introductions, and this needs many times which I don't have.

Generally, according to Imam Khomeini's view, Prophet has different levels and the uppermost level is greater than Gabriel. But, the physical level of Prophet is not so. The uppermost level get the revelation dirrectly from Allah, but it is Gabrirl who sent the revelation form that level to the physical level of Prophet.

Imam Khomeini (rahmatollah alaih) said that some scholars think that the relation between Allah and Gabriel is like the relation between a king and his minister. Imam Khomeini then says that because Gabriel has not any independent existence besides Allah, what there is between the king and his minister, so this analogy would not be true. So, when Quran says in a verse that Allah sends Quran, and it says in another verse that Gabriel is who sends Quran, it is because of this issue that the existence of Gabriel is nothing but the grace of existence by the absolute Existence, i.e. Allah, to him. So, when Gabriel who doesn't have any independent existence besides Allah's Existence sends Quran, it is indeed God who sends the Quran in turn.

 

[Link]

What they say about Gabriel, Allah, and the light of Prophets is true. What I'm saying, it has nothing to do with the verses that God revealed. When God says he revealed, it means it's his words he revealed to Gabriel who revealed it to Mohammad.

This wanting to make it about the true meaning "we have revealed/brought down" has to do with a true fact of existence being dependent on God or all light being God's light, but is unrelated to this, is planting seeds of evil. And Ibn Arabi from his interpretation of the Kalima to other things, planted a lot of seeds. If people take his interpretation of Quran as facts or potentially true, there will be huge problems in how we approach authority and God's guidance.