Because the bible tells you so?

[DeepShadow]

I have heard it said that the people that go on the mission not knowing it is true are told to tell people they know it is true until they get their own belief that it is true. Ever heard of that?

Sure, it's a meme that the church is trying to stamp out. It's never been put forward by the leaders, but is actually the exact opposite of the missionary handbook. Shortcut memes are hard to kill, you sympathize?

It is a good thing that a member doesn’t have to declare that they have received a HG witness to the Mormon beliefs. But you gotta wonder, if some guy received the HG at age 8 and the HG still hasn’t gotten through to him by age 19, I dunno, what’s going on? I think you should probably ask for your money back.

Or stop treating it like it's on autopilot. Your pick.

Wow, that is seriously impressive eyes wide shut. The “unbaptism” thing is the party line, sure, the reality is quite different for people.

There's no eyes wide shut. I'm deeply familiar with Mormon culture as opposed to doctrine. But I can separate the two. Can you?

Every instance in which I have known somebody that has been excommunicated, the rumor mill was active and the conclusion was that an unfriendly ghost (Satan) deceived them and they speculated that they either wanted to break the commandments or were offended by somebody at church.

Rumor mills happen. You are conflating doctrines with customs interchangeably. I think you know better.

I don’t understand what you are saying with this last bit, “but it's going on for all generations at the same time.” Do you mean the hysteria, etc is constant across the generations? (I'm not being snotty)

I am not at all persuaded by the numbers argument.

Persuaded to what? All I'm saying is that if there are such large numbers first generation converts, why are you assigning a totally different set of actors to their kids? If there are social forces--whatever they are--that impel people to join without indoctrination, enculturation and mapping (all of which are parental controls) then why are those same cultural forces not responsible for the second and third generations of converts?

 

[DeepShadow]

The Qur'an/Bible/Torah/etc strengthens people's morals, it's not like they didn't have any morals beforehand.

An excellent point. As LDS we believe in what is called the "Light of Christ" which is given to everyone. A conscience. What comes later is often merely a refinement of that.

 

[Bathsheba]

DeepShadow,

I gotta hit the sack so I can't do a point by point, but I wanted to reply before turning in.

Where I have failed in logic, the conflating of ideas, etc., I am grateful for the opportunity to see the error in my thinking. It is good to do the back and forth with you.

I get what you are saying about doctrine and culture.

The culture is vastly more important to me than the doctrine. I suggest that it is hard for you to look at the culture from my perspective because you have your witness. The view of the cultural landscape is considerably different without the overall weight of the doctrine. Because I don't believe in the doctrine, its just the people.

Just fyi, I have also known some pretty decent dogmatic sorts.

 

[Comprehend]

Yes, I get that, I hear the anger.

It was annoyance. You couldn't make me angry if you tried.

At least you are consistant.

 

[mcteethinator]

An excellent point. As LDS we believe in what is called the "Light of Christ" which is given to everyone. A conscience. What comes later is often merely a refinement of that.

Exactly. Religion keeps you more in check. When you're steadfastly religious, you're less likely to make moral slip-ups (Accidentally gossiping, being less caring for the poor, etc). In my opinion anyway.

 

[sojourner]

It is not I who is making the extraordinary claim.

I don't know about that. Perhaps it is you making the extraordinary claim...

 

[LogDog]

Exactly. Religion keeps you more in check. When you're steadfastly religious, you're less likely to make moral slip-ups (Accidentally gossiping, being less caring for the poor, etc). In my opinion anyway.

Christians make up approximately 75% of the U.S. population and 75% of the prison population. Atheists make up approximately 10% of the the U.S. population and .2% of the prison population. These statistics don't seem to support your assertion that religion keeps people more in check.

 

[ChristineES]

Christians make up approximately 75% of the U.S. population and 75% of the prison population. Atheists make up approximately 10% of the the U.S. population and .2% of the prison population. These statistics don't seem to support your assertion that religion keeps people more in check.

That's also further proof that just because someone says he is a Christian, it doesn't mean he really follows the words of Jesus. :biglaugh:

 

[Comprehend]

Christians make up approximately 75% of the U.S. population and 75% of the prison population. Atheists make up approximately 10% of the the U.S. population and .2% of the prison population. These statistics don't seem to support your assertion that religion keeps people more in check.

where do you get those statistics?

EDIT: The most comprehensive religious study in the U.S. to date is the ARIS study of 2001. In that study, they found only 0.4% of the population to be athiest.

http://www.gc.cuny.edu/faculty/research_briefs/aris/key_findings.htm

 

[LogDog]

where do you get those statistics?

Federal Bureau of Prisons (1997)

 

[Comprehend]

Federal Bureau of Prisons (1997)

please see my edit above.

Do you have a link to the study?

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

where do you get those statistics?

They're a mixture of both old data, suspect data and bad inferences. Adherents.com has some information about these "religion in prison" statistics:

Prison Incarceration and Religious Preference

In particular, the section "Theists vs. Nontheists" in Prison Populations: a False Dichotomy makes for interesting reading.

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Federal Bureau of Prisons (1997)

That data is quoted in the article I linked to above. To make the inference that you have (or possibly that the author of whatever article you read has) requires that you assume that the number of atheists in the "unknown/no answer" category is negligible.

 

[LogDog]

Do you have a link to the study?

http://freethoughtpedia.com/wiki/Percentage_of_atheists

Did you notice Exhibit #3 in the link you provided?

 

[Comprehend]

Percentage of atheists - FreeThoughtPedia

Did you notice Exhibit #3 in the link you provided?

Yes, do you equate secular with Athiesm? If so, how would you account for the 0.4% in Exhibit #2?

Your link agrees with me that the most comprehensive study is the ARIS 2001 study that says athiests are only 0.4% of the population...?

 

[LogDog]

How Many Atheists in America?

Atheists Supply Less Than 1% Of Prison Populations It's suprising how many people say to m

The results of the Christians vs atheists in prison investigation.

 

[Comprehend]

How Many Atheists in America?

Atheists Supply Less Than 1% Of Prison Populations It's suprising how many people say to m

The results of the Christians vs atheists in prison investigation.

I believe Penguin's link to Adherents.com has addressed these exact links...

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

How Many Atheists in America?

From the article:

Harris Interactive gives these figures on atheists in America:

A plurality (42%) of all adults (but only 37% of men) thinks God is male, but only 1% thinks God is female. Almost half of all adults believe that God is neither male nor female (38%) or that God is both (11%).​

If you add up the numbers, that works out to 92% responding on the gender of god. This suggests 8% who must not believe in any sort of god with any gender.

This is a faulty inference. Along with "I don't believe in God at all", 8% presumably also includes responses like "I don't know", "I believe in many gods, not just one", and possibly "I refuse to answer". This article tries to apply statistics well outside the scope of the original study.

The following section appears to deal with the matter more honestly, but I still see problems:

Barna has this to say:

85% of Americans self-identify as Christians. (2002)​

7% of US adults classify as evangelicals (2004) (see Evangelical category for more information)​

38% of US adults classify as born again, but not evangelical. (2004)​

37% are self-described Christians but are neither evangelical nor born again​

Atheists and agnostics comprise 12% of adults nationwide. (2004)​

11% of the US population identify with a faith other than Christianity (2004)​

Even allowing for the fact that these statistics are from slightly different years, they don't come close to adding up: if 85% of Americans are Christians and 11% belong to religions other than Christianity, that only leaves a maximum of 4% of the population for everything else, including atheism, agnosticism and "spiritual, not religious".

Atheists Supply Less Than 1% Of Prison Populations It's suprising how many people say to m

Adherents.com goes through this point-by-point here. If any of the data is legitimate, it appears to be quite old: apparently, none of the religious inmates in whatever year the data was taken are Muslim.

The results of the Christians vs atheists in prison investigation.

These stats are dealt with in the link in my previous post. Like I said, it ignores all "unknown/no answer" respondents. I think it's quite possible that this group would have a higher proportion of non-theists than the surveyed population as a whole.

 

[LogDog]

Do these stats not tend to indicate that this assertion is false?

Religion keeps you more in check. When you're steadfastly religious, you're less likely to make moral slip-ups

 

[9-10ths_Penguin]

Do these stats not tend to indicate that this assertion is false?

No, they don't.

For one thing, the statistics don't say what you're implying they do. For another, I believe a significant number of people find or lose religion in prison (if they're being genuine) or pretend to be religious to get the benefit of faith-based prison programs (if they're not). In a fair number of cases, an inmate's religious beliefs are not the same in prison as they were when they committed whatever crime got them sent there.

On top of all that, you're assuming that except for religion, prison demographics are the same as those for the population at large. If, for example, the poor are more likely to commit (or at least be convicted of) crimes and the poor are more likely to be religious, it doesn't mean that it's the religion that's causing the criminal behaviour.