Before You Ask, "Does God Exist?"...

[viole]

That's their problem, if any have ears to hear let them hear.

And that is your proof of Jesus divine existence, right?

They could say exactly the same. And you would be on square one, I am afraid.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Kemosloby]

And that is your proof of Jesus divine existence, right?

They could say exactly the same. And you would be on square one, I am afraid.

Ciao

- viole

An example of proof. I don't think we're on the same wavelength. Like I said, and as Jesus said, "If any have ears to hear let them hear". And that about sums it up.

 

[viole]

An example of proof. I don't think we're on the same wavelength. Like I said, and as Jesus said, "If any have ears to hear let them hear". And that about sums it up.

Oh well, if Jesus said that, or better, someone wrote that Jesus said that, then that should be evidence enough

Of course we are not on the same wavelength. Is that a requirement for us to both accept this as a proof of anything?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Kemosloby]

Oh well, if Jesus said that, or better, someone wrote that Jesus said that, then that should be evidence enough

Of course we are not on the same wavelength. Is that a requirement for us to both accept this as a proof of anything?

Ciao

- viole

I mean the wavelength that I don't care if the Jews don't see it the same way as I do, or the Apostles did, or like minded Christians do.

 

[viole]

I mean the wavelength that I don't care if the Jews don't see it the same way as I do, or the Apostles did, or like minded Christians do.

So, in order for all you say to be a proof that God exists, which is your claim, you have to be like minded?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Kemosloby]

So, in order for all you say to be a proof that God exists, which is your claim, you have to be like minded?

Ciao

- viole

You have to read it like I did to see the proof of God exists, the prophecy laced into the words and symbolism of the old testament. Prophecies of Christ on the cross. Who is like God, who could make all that come together?

 

[viole]

You have to read it like I did to see the proof of God exists, the prophecy laced into the words and symbolism of the old testament. Prophecies of Christ on the cross. Who is like God, who could make all that come together?

Well, with a bit of imagination, I could probably find amazing prophecies laced into the words of any book. Including Pinocchio.

So, my rejection stands. Come back to us when you have convinced, at least, the other believers in the OT. Telling me that they do not have ears to listen, would not do, I am afraid. Everybody can say that.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Kemosloby]

Well, with a bit of imagination, I could probably find amazing prophecies laced into the words of any book. Including Pinocchio.

So, my rejection stands. Come back to us when you have convinced, at least, the other believers in the OT. Telling me that they do not have ears to listen, would not do, I am afraid. Everybody can say that.

Ciao

- viole

How many of you are there?

 

[viole]

How many of you are there?

I don't know. i am alone enjoyng a couple of Negronis and typing things on my iPad.

Are you about to make some ad-populum argument, by any chance?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Kemosloby]

I don't know. i am alone enjoyng a couple of Negronis and typing things on my iPad.

Are you about to make some ad-populum argument, by any chance?

Ciao

- viole

You said, "So, my rejection stands. Come back to us when you have convinced, at least, the other believers in the OT."
So I'm wondering who is "us". And who are the other believers in the OT? The Jews who don't believe in Jesus? You're asking the impossible, since God has blinded them for some reason. How could I undo what God has done?

John 12:40 "The Lord has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts--so that their eyes cannot see, and their hearts cannot understand, and they cannot turn to me and have me heal them."

 

[viole]

You said, "So, my rejection stands. Come back to us when you have convinced, at least, the other believers in the OT."
So I'm wondering who is "us". And who are the other believers in the OT? The Jews who don't believe in Jesus? You're asking the impossible, since God has blinded them for some reason. How could I undo what God has done?

John 12:40 "The Lord has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts--so that their eyes cannot see, and their hearts cannot understand, and they cannot turn to me and have me heal them."

Poor Jews, God blinded them and hardened their heart. What a mean thing to do. He should be ashamed of Himself.

What did they do to deserve that?

Ciao

- viole

P.S. So much for free will.

 

[Kemosloby]

Poor Jews, God blinded them and hardened their heart. What a mean thing to do. He should be ashamed of Himself.

What did they do to deserve that?

Ciao

- viole

I don't know, nail him on a cross or something?

 

[viole]

I don't know, nail him on a cross or something?

They should have not done that?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Kemosloby]

They should have not done that?

Ciao

- viole

How could they not have done that. It was their misfortune to get that role in God's mysterious plan of redemption. Who knows why, but it doesn't change the fact that God prophecied of his crucifixion, at the hands of people who didn't believe in him or understand said prophecies. And that is convincing proof of God.

 

[viole]

How could they not have done that. It was their misfortune to get that role in God's mysterious plan of redemption. Who knows why, but it doesn't change the fact that God prophecied of his crucifixion, at the hands of people who didn't believe in him or understand said prophecies. And that is convincing proof of God.

So, they were unlucky, by being at the wrong place at the wrong time, and God blinded them and hardened their heart because of that? All further generations, as well? Well, maybe not, since some messianic jews managed to get over their hardened heart and blindness, despite God's verdict, for some reason. And that God is the source of your morality and logical thinking, right?

Well, that God redemption plan is truely mysterious, lol.

And what is even more mysterious, if that was possible, is that you really believe that this serves as a proof of anything.

Ciao

- viole

 

[Kemosloby]

So, they were unlucky, by being at the wrong place at the wrong time, and God blinded them and hardened their heart because of that? All further generations, as well? Well, maybe not, since some messianic jews managed to get over their hardened heart and blindness, despite God's verdict, for some reason. And that God is the source of your morality and logical thinking, right?

Well, that God redemption plan is truely mysterious, lol.

And what is even more mysterious, if that was possible, is that you really believe that this serves as a proof of anything.

Ciao

- viole

You seem a bit hard hearted towards God.

 

[Willamena]

Before you ask, "does god or the gods exist", shouldn't you be asking, "If god or the gods exist, then how would we know that they exist?"

Isn't the latter the more fundamental question? Why or why not?

The latter is implied in the former. There's no 'ontology' without epistemology.

 

[David T]

Let me reframe the question,
[QUOTE="Sunstone, post: shouldn't you be asking, "If god or the gods exist, then how would we know that they exist?"

Let me reframe your question. " if reality exists how would we know it exists?". I appreciate the religious skeptic, but skeptics tend to allow for an independent reality from reality to exist as they argue as to the existence or non existence of God. A kind of linguistic virtuuzation that people go and get phds write on topics in great fluffery stating the obvious as if it's meaningful and profound. In science we have to ask is Darwin a profound discoverer or is he just a symptom of a rather lost in outer space culture of its own ideas? He states the obvious I have penis male chimpanzees have penis we are related!!! OMG so profound what insight what genius. Or OMG he is a deep threat to the fantasy reality we have created at Oxford, at Cambridge at Harvard at every university in Western culture0up to that time!!!! Because we the faithful know that all truth starts with a BOOK. stupid stupid stupid which leads to talking about reality independence to of it. Really? Breathe everyone.

 

[corynski]

I think the ability to make at least simple deductions is something that develops quite naturally in humans (despite the disturbing fact that in forums such as this very few adults seem to be able to actually state a deduction). Very young children can correctly say whether or not a ball is in a box, depending on what they've seen beforehand. This ability seems to me to entail some sort of deductive process. First graders readily grasp addition and subtraction of abstract numbers. Obviously deduction is happening there.

So perhaps people who are asking themselves questions about whether “god or the gods exist” have already dealt with the issue of how one can make such a deduction.




BTW, I wonder how many people actually believe that a pantheon of gods exist? After all, such an idea directly violates the “oneness” concept associated with God. Maybe polytheism and monotheism shouldn't be lumped together too much.

Throughout history and prehistory societies have professed many, many gods and goddesses. And logically so, I would suggest, if these gods and goddesses were part of a world view that had long before accepted water and wind spirits and such. Just as Yahweh is said to have been a storm god out of Arabia. The 'one god' concept apparently came later when men became more sophisticated thinkers, or the opposite. Julian Jaynes wrote of the origin of gods through dreams and nightmarish experiences, convinced their ancestors were now 'gods'...... Men create gods, and not vice versa, would seem to be the logical conclusion.

 

[viole]

You seem a bit hard hearted towards God.

What? Did He do it again?

But I am not a Jew, as far as I know.

Ciao

- viole