Behaviour of Prophet and Shia Imams towards slaves

[mojtaba]

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم​

1.Noble Prophet (peace be upon him and his pure progeny) said:

مَا زَالَ جَبْرَئِيلُ يُوصِينِي بِالْمَمْلُوكِ حَتَّى ظَنَنْتُ أَنَّهُ سَيَضْرِبُ لَهُ أَجَلاً يُعْتَقُ فِيهِ‌ـ​

“Gabril (peace be upon him) used to make recommendations to me, with respect to the slaves, so often that I was given to suppose that he would shortly stipulate a time-period after which they would (automatically) become free.”
(Sorce: Wasa`il ash-Shia by Sheykh Al-Hurr Al-Amili, V17, P37)

2.Imam Sadiq (peace be upon him) [6th infallible Imam] said:

أَنَّ أَمِيرَ اَلْمُؤْمِنِينَ عليه السلام أَعْتَقَ أَلْفَ مَمْلُوكٍ مِنْ كَدِّ يَدِهِ ـ
​

'Amir Al-Mo'minin [i.e., Imam Ali_peace be upon him] freed one thousand slaves by means of his wages (which he used to earn).’
(Source: Al-Kafi by Thiqatul Islam Al-Koleyni, V5, P74)

3.Imam Sadiq (peace be upon him) said:

من کان مؤمنا فقد عتق بعد سبع سنین ، اعتقه صاحبه ام لم یعتقه ، و لا یحل خدمة من کان مؤمنا بعد سبعة سنین ـ​

"One, who is a believer, becomes free after seven years - irrespective of whether his master approves of it or not. It is not permissible to extract services from a slave, who is a believer, after seven years."
(Source: Al-Kafi by Thiqatul Islam Al-Koleyni, V6, P196)

4.Abu Zar (May Allah be pleased with him) narrates:

سمعت النبي صلی الله عليه و آله و سلم يقول: أطعموهم مما تأكلون والبسوهم مما تلبسون ـ
​

I heared that the Prophet (peace be upon him and his pure progeny) said: "Feed them (i.e., slaves) from what you yourself eat and clothe them from the clothes you yourself wear."
(Source: Al-Amali by Sheykh Mofid, V2, P18)

5.Imam Sadiq (peace be upon him) narrates:

قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه و آله و سلم : ألا انبئكم بشر الناس؟ قالوا : بلى يا رسول الله فقال : من سافر وحده ، ومنع
رفده ، وضرب عبده ـ​

The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him and his pure progeny) said: ‘Shall I inform you of the most evil of the people?’ They said, ‘Yes, O Messenger of Allah! So he said: ‘... and the hitter of his slave’.
(Al-Mahaseen by Al-Barqi, P424)

6.Anas bin Maalik narrates:

قال أنس : كنت عند الحسين عليه السلام ، فدخلت عليه جارية فحيته بطاقة ريحان ، فقال لها : أنت حرة لوجه الله ، فقلت : تجيئك بطاقة ريحان لا خطر لها فتعتقها ؟ قال : كذا أدبنا الله ، قال الله " وإذا حييتم بتحية فحيوا بأحسن منها أوردوها " وكان أحسن منها عتقه ـ​

"Once I was with Imam Husain (peace be upon him) [3th infallible Imam] when a slave girl came and gave a bundle of flower to Imam Husain (peace be upon him) as a gift. In return Imam Husain (peace be upon him) said the slave girl, I have freed you in path of Allah (swt).
Then I said to Imam Husain (peace be upon him), “This slave girl gave you a bundle of flower which is of no value and in return you freed her?”
Imam Husain (peace be upon him) replied, 'Allah (swt) has learned us this. He (swt) said: “When a (courteous) greeting/gift is offered you, meet it with a greeting still more courteous, or (at least) of equal courtesy. Allah takes careful account of all things [Quran, 4:86]." Hence the return for the bundle of flowers that she gave was this only that she be freed.'
(Source: Bihar Al-Anwar by Allama Majlisi, V44, P195)

7.It has been narrated in connection with Imam Sajjad (peace be upon him) [4th infallible Imam] that:

روى ان جارية لعلى بن الحسين جعلت تسكب عليه الماء ليتهيأ للصلوة، فسقط الا بريق من يدها فشجه، فرفع رأسه اليها فقالت له الجارية: ان الله تعالى يقول: (والكاظمين الغيظ) فقال لها: قد كظمت غيظى. قالت: (والعافين عن الناس) قال: قد عفى الله عنك، قالت (والله يحب المحسنين) قال: اذهبى فانت حرة لوجه الله ـ
​

"Once, his servant was in the process of pouring water over his (peace be upon him) hands for ablution for Salat, the vessel slipped from his hand and injured the Imam (peace be upon him). The Imam (peace be upon him) looked up at the servant whereupon, the servant recited:
وَ الْكَاظِمِينَ الْغَيْظَ
“…and those who restrain (their) anger.”[Quran, 3:134]

Hearing this, the Imam (peace be upon him) said: I have restrained my anger. The servant recited further:
وَ الْعَافِينَ عَنِ النَّاسِ
“…and (those who) pardon people.”[3:134]

The Imam (peace be upon him) said: May Allah forgive you. The servant continued:
وَ اللٌّهُ يُحِبُّ الْمُحْسِـنِينَ
“…and Allah loves the doers of good (to others)”[3:134]

whereupon the Imam (peace be upon him) said: 'Go. For the sake of Allah, you are (now) free.'
(Sorce: Tafsir Nur Al-Thaqalain, V1, P390)

8.When one of the slaves of Imam Baqir (peace be upon him) [5th infallible Imam] performed a good deed, the Imam (a.s) said:

فَاذْهَبْ فَأَنْتَ حُرٌّ فَإِنِّي أَكْرَهُ أَنْ أَسْتَخْدِمَ رَجُلاً مِنْ أَهْلِ الْجَنَّةِ.

“Go, you are now free for I do not approve of a person from the inmates of Paradise to be my slave (and serve me).”
(Source: Man La Yahzaroh Al-Faqih by Sheykh Al-Saduq, V1, P27)

والحمد لله رب العالمين​

 

[Milton Platt]

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم​

1.Noble Prophet (peace be upon him and his pure progeny) said:

مَا زَالَ جَبْرَئِيلُ يُوصِينِي بِالْمَمْلُوكِ حَتَّى ظَنَنْتُ أَنَّهُ سَيَضْرِبُ لَهُ أَجَلاً يُعْتَقُ فِيهِ‌ـ​

“Gabril (peace be upon him) used to make recommendations to me, with respect to the slaves, so often that I was given to suppose that he would shortly stipulate a time-period after which they would (automatically) become free.”
(Sorce: Wasa`il ash-Shia by Sheykh Al-Hurr Al-Amili, V17, P37)

What was the time period, and why was it moral to keep slaves until then?

2.Imam Sadiq (peace be upon him) [6th infallible Imam] said:

أَنَّ أَمِيرَ اَلْمُؤْمِنِينَ عليه السلام أَعْتَقَ أَلْفَ مَمْلُوكٍ مِنْ كَدِّ يَدِهِ ـ
​

'Amir Al-Mo'minin [i.e., Imam Ali_peace be upon him] freed one thousand slaves by means of his wages (which he used to earn).’
(Source: Al-Kafi by Thiqatul Islam Al-Koleyni, V5, P74)

Does this mean he paid money to their owners for their freedom? Did this prohibit the former owners from buying even more slaves with the money they had earned from selling him their slaves?

3.Imam Sadiq (peace be upon him) said:

من کان مؤمنا فقد عتق بعد سبع سنین ، اعتقه صاحبه ام لم یعتقه ، و لا یحل خدمة من کان مؤمنا بعد سبعة سنین ـ​

"One, who is a believer, becomes free after seven years - irrespective of whether his master approves of it or not. It is not permissible to extract services from a slave, who is a believer, after seven years."
(Source: Al-Kafi by Thiqatul Islam Al-Koleyni, V6, P196)

So only believers can become free, it is moral to own non-believers forever and moral to own believers for seven years? I don't see any morality in that.

4.Abu Zar (May Allah be pleased with him) narrates:

سمعت النبي صلی الله عليه و آله و سلم يقول: أطعموهم مما تأكلون والبسوهم مما تلبسون ـ
​

I heared that the Prophet (peace be upon him and his pure progeny) said: "Feed them (i.e., slaves) from what you yourself eat and clothe them from the clothes you yourself wear."
(Source: Al-Amali by Sheykh Mofid, V2, P18)

Nonsensical statement. That is the only source they would get food and clothing from anyway, and to not feed and cloth a slave would be to kill him and lose the hard earned money you paid for him.

5.Imam Sadiq (peace be upon him) narrates:

قال رسول الله صلى الله عليه و آله و سلم : ألا انبئكم بشر الناس؟ قالوا : بلى يا رسول الله فقال : من سافر وحده ، ومنع
رفده ، وضرب عبده ـ​

The Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him and his pure progeny) said: ‘Shall I inform you of the most evil of the people?’ They said, ‘Yes, O Messenger of Allah! So he said: ‘... and the hitter of his slave’.
(Al-Mahaseen by Al-Barqi, P424)

You seem to have cut out enough of the passage that it is unintelligible.

6.Anas bin Maalik narrates:

قال أنس : كنت عند الحسين عليه السلام ، فدخلت عليه جارية فحيته بطاقة ريحان ، فقال لها : أنت حرة لوجه الله ، فقلت : تجيئك بطاقة ريحان لا خطر لها فتعتقها ؟ قال : كذا أدبنا الله ، قال الله " وإذا حييتم بتحية فحيوا بأحسن منها أوردوها " وكان أحسن منها عتقه ـ​

"Once I was with Imam Husain (peace be upon him) [3th infallible Imam] when a slave girl came and gave a bundle of flower to Imam Husain (peace be upon him) as a gift. In return Imam Husain (peace be upon him) said the slave girl, I have freed you in path of Allah (swt).

Why did he own another human being in the first place?

Then I said to Imam Husain (peace be upon him), “This slave girl gave you a bundle of flower which is of no value and in return you freed her?”
Imam Husain (peace be upon him) replied, 'Allah (swt) has learned us this. He (swt) said: “When a (courteous) greeting/gift is offered you, meet it with a greeting still more courteous, or (at least) of equal courtesy. Allah takes careful account of all things [Quran, 4:86]." Hence the return for the bundle of flowers that she gave was this only that she be freed.'
(Source: Bihar Al-Anwar by Allama Majlisi, V44, P195)

7.It has been narrated in connection with Imam Sajjad (peace be upon him) [4th infallible Imam] that:

روى ان جارية لعلى بن الحسين جعلت تسكب عليه الماء ليتهيأ للصلوة، فسقط الا بريق من يدها فشجه، فرفع رأسه اليها فقالت له الجارية: ان الله تعالى يقول: (والكاظمين الغيظ) فقال لها: قد كظمت غيظى. قالت: (والعافين عن الناس) قال: قد عفى الله عنك، قالت (والله يحب المحسنين) قال: اذهبى فانت حرة لوجه الله ـ
​

"Once, his servant was in the process of pouring water over his (peace be upon him) hands for ablution for Salat, the vessel slipped from his hand and injured the Imam (peace be upon him). The Imam (peace be upon him) looked up at the servant whereupon, the servant recited:
وَ الْكَاظِمِينَ الْغَيْظَ
“…and those who restrain (their) anger.”[Quran, 3:134]

Hearing this, the Imam (peace be upon him) said: I have restrained my anger. The servant recited further:
وَ الْعَافِينَ عَنِ النَّاسِ
“…and (those who) pardon people.”[3:134]

The Imam (peace be upon him) said: May Allah forgive you. The servant continued:
وَ اللٌّهُ يُحِبُّ الْمُحْسِـنِينَ
“…and Allah loves the doers of good (to others)”[3:134]

whereupon the Imam (peace be upon him) said: 'Go. For the sake of Allah, you are (now) free.

Why was it moral for the Imam to own another human being in the first place?

(Sorce: Tafsir Nur Al-Thaqalain, V1, P390)

8.When one of the slaves of Imam Baqir (peace be upon him) [5th infallible Imam] performed a good deed, the Imam (a.s) said:


فَاذْهَبْ فَأَنْتَ حُرٌّ فَإِنِّي أَكْرَهُ أَنْ أَسْتَخْدِمَ رَجُلاً مِنْ أَهْلِ الْجَنَّةِ.

“Go, you are now free for I do not approve of a person from the inmates of Paradise to be my slave (and serve me).”
(Source: Man La Yahzaroh Al-Faqih by Sheykh Al-Saduq, V1, P27)

Again, why was it moral for this Imam to have owned another human being? Aren't all duties performed by a slave for his master a "good deed" in the eyes of his master? Did the slave do only "bad deeds" all of his life before this one instance?

والحمد لله رب العالمين​

 

[Shia Islam]

Islam is against slavery.
The Quran is full of verses calling for freeing the slaves.

To understand how Islam has addressed the issue of slavery, one needs to know that the whole world order at that time was based on slavery.

If you are to issue orders to instantly free all the slaves, the slaves themselves will be the first victims.

So Islam has encouraged people to free their slaves, and has made it mandatory in certain cases that the owner of a slave has to free him/her, such as in certain cases of abuse of authority.

Also, Islam put a limit on the authority of the owners of the slaves upon their slaves.

In addition, the Quran has talked about the Mukataba المكاتبة contract, based on which the slave and his boss can agree that the slave will work and accumulate some agreed upon amount of money to buy his freedom from his boss.

These were some remarks only...

 

[Milton Platt]

Islam is against slavery.
The Quran is full of verses calling for freeing the slaves.

To understand how Islam has addressed the issue of slavery, one needs to know that the whole world order at that time was based on slavery.

If you are to issue orders to instantly free all the slaves, the slaves themselves will be the first victims.

So Islam has encouraged people to free their slaves, and has made it mandatory in certain cases that the owner of a slave has to free him/her, such as in certain cases of abuse of authority.

Also, Islam put a limit on the authority of the owners of the slaves upon their slaves.

In addition, the Quran has talked about the Mukataba المكاتبة contract, based on which the slave and his boss can agree that the slave will work and accumulate some agreed upon amount of money to buy his freedom from his boss.

These were some remarks only...

Why did your god allow slavery to occur in the first place? If slavery was immoral and your god allowed it, he was also immoral for doing so. An all powerful god would not be at the mercy of human whims.
Your excuse that it would be bad to free all slaves does not stand the test of logic. Your god could have freed all the slaves and required recompense to the slaves from the owners. Or he could have taken care of the slaves himself since it was his own negligence that allowed it to occur.

A god of infinite wisdom would habe an infinite number ow ways to solve the problem he himself created.

You also did not answer specific questions I asked in the previous post please read my last post and answer those questions.

 

[Shia Islam]

Why did your god allow slavery to occur in the first place?

This Question is based on the presumption that Humans have no free-well.

What we say is that Human have freewell, and they are the ones who created the problem. God internvetions will not negate the laws of this world that he has created.

Your excuse that it would be bad to free all slaves does not stand the test of logic. Your god could have freed all the slaves and required recompense to the slaves from the owners.

First of all, Most of those slaves themselves were raised in a way that they themselves were not ready for freedom. Most of them came from far lands and have no means of facing the hard life themselves..
Even emotionally, they were not ready for freedom..

Then, if you are to free all the slaves at once, will stop the whole economical cycle of that society, and the owners of the slaves will not be able to compensate the slaves, assuming that the owners will not retaliate! If the slaves before the freedom were sheltered and provided with their basic needs, you will end up with a situation in which these slaves will become homeless!

You also did not answer specific questions I asked in the previous post please read my last post and answer those questions.

 

[Milton Platt]

This Question is based on the presumption that Humans have no free-well.

What we say is that Human have freewell, and they are the ones who created the problem. God internvetions will not negate the laws of this world that he has created.



First of all, Most of those slaves themselves were raised in a way that they themselves were not ready for freedom. Most of them came from far lands and have no means of facing the hard life themselves..
Even emotionally, they were not ready for freedom..

Then, if you are to free all the slaves at once, will stop the whole economical cycle of that society, and the owners of the slaves will not be able to compensate the slaves, assuming that the owners will not retaliate! If the slaves before the freedom were sheltered and provided with their basic needs, you will end up with a situation in which these slaves will become homeless!

I do not have time to respond in a complete fashion and will do so when I have enough time to do justice to your reply.

Edit:
Been a busy day.... Okay, Before I get into my response to your post, thanks for your patient comebacks. If you look at my avatar, you can see that I'm an atheist....in fact a life-long atheist. I won't be suddenly converted to a theist by your arguments, and you certainly won't be converted suddenly to atheism just because I challenged the suppositions in your beliefs. That is not my mission. But both of us are made to think about what we believe (or in my case, do not believe) when we challenge each other. That makes both of us just a bit wiser. So to be fair, you do not need to just be on the defensive. You can question my worldview as well. After all, you are willing to put your beliefs out there for all to question.

Okay.....
You stated:
"This Question is based on the presumption that Humans have no free-well.

What we say is that Human have freewell, and they are the ones who created the problem. God internvetions will not negate the laws of this world that he has created."

Although there certainly are some good arguments against free will, I didn't have that in mind. But lets's talk about free will as well.....Does human free will, if it exists, supersede the will of god, or can he override it when he wishes? He seems to override it sometimes, at least in the Bible (I don't know about the Quran or other Islamic texts).

Is it moral of a god to allow human free will to cause suffering when he can stop it?

Here is the way I look at it:
If I see a child being raped, I would do everything within my power to stop it. Your god seems to just watch it happen to the child and then worry about punishing the perpetrator later. Is the free will of a child rapist more important than the welfare of the child? In what way does that help the raped child? I personally feel it is immoral of anyone, human or god like, to simply watch a horrible thing and do nothing about it when it is within your power to stop it. If you are a being of infinite wisdom, infinite love, and infinite power and you do nothing to prevent the rape of a child, then I am far more moral than that being. No way around it.

If you are a god-like being that has absolute control over your creation and you allow free-will that supersedes your own will, then you are responsible for the outcomes of your decision to allow this. There is no way you cannot be.

You said:
"First of all, Most of those slaves themselves were raised in a way that they themselves were not ready for freedom. Most of them came from far lands and have no means of facing the hard life themselves..
Even emotionally, they were not ready for freedom."

You are simply making assumptions about the slaves that you cannot support with hard evidence.

I say that virtually none of this matters. Your god allowed the situation to occur in the first place, therefore he bears responsibility for them even being slaves. In fact, since he supposedly created the universe and everything within it, he is ultimately responsible for virtually everything that occurs within the universe, including the supposed free will of humans that somehow supersedes the will of a god.. This is because everything would behave exactly as he planned for it to happen. An omniscient god would fully understand all of the consequences of his decisions and actions. Therefore he already knew there would be slaves and once he understood this (from the outset) he could have prevented this from happening in the first place and we would not be having this discussion. So he chose in the beginning to allow slavery by allowing free will to override his own wishes..

Your god could have simply stated outright in the beginning that slavery was immoral and not allowed it. Then the problem would not have existed in the first place.

You said:
"Then, if you are to free all the slaves at once, will stop the whole economical cycle of that society, and the owners of the slaves will not be able to compensate the slaves, assuming that the owners will not retaliate! If the slaves before the freedom were sheltered and provided with their basic needs, you will end up with a situation in which these slaves will become homeless!"

I say:
Again, none of this matters. Your god could have not allowed this situation to happen in the first place.

You're awesome....I can't have this discussion with most theists.

 

[mojtaba]

Dear @Milton Platt,
Ask your questions freely. Such these questions are so important and their answers are more important than them. Amir Al-Mo'mineen Ali (peace be upon him), i.e. our 1th infallible Imam, said: القلوب أقفال و مفاتحها السؤال (Mind is blocked and its key is question). Imam Ja'far As-Sadiq (peace be upon him), i.e. our 6th infallible Imam, said: إِنَّمَا یَهْلِكُ النَّاسُ لِأَنَّهُمْ لَا یَسْأَلُونَ (People are destroyed, only because they do not ask their questions).
So, your questions are welcomed. Unfortunately I am so busy now-days, but I try to reply them as soon as posible.

Although there certainly are some good arguments against free will, I didn't have that in mind. But lets's talk about free will as well.....

If there is no free-will at all, so why does government punish those who do evil doings?
Why when a person does a bad doing, he/she be ashamed. If there is not any free-will, why is there the shame?

If a person is not responsible for what he/she does, why he/she be ashamed when he/she does an unworthy doing, or why does government punish him/her?

Does human free will, if it exists, supersede the will of god, or can he override it when he wishes? He seems to override it sometimes, at least in the Bible (I don't know about the Quran or other Islamic texts).

1.According to Shia belief, Allah's will is divided into existential (takwini) and legislative (tashri'i) will. Human free-will only can supersede the legislative will of Allah (i.e., religious laws). But, nothing can happen to be, except what Allah (swt) so wishes, and wills (i.e., existential will), and determines, and ordains. But, it should be noticed that this does not cancel human free-will. Because, one of the things that Allah has willed (i.e., existential will), is that human should have free-will. So, the existential will of Allah occurs through the will of man (understanding of this issue is hard, but I'm sure that you are smart and can understand it. Let yourself think about it, after thinking you can get the point).

2.Yes. Allah's existential will can override the free-will of man whenever He wishes. Because nothing can happen to be, except what Allah wills, not what man wills. But, Allah usually wills what man wills, because He does not want to force people to do whatever He wishes. And this is because this world is the world of trial.

Allah says:
Say, ‘Upon Allah rests [the setting of] the staright way. Had He wished, He would have surely guided you all [forcely].’[6:149]

But because Allah wants to terial people, He does not will to guide all the people forcely.

Is it moral of a god to allow human free will to cause suffering when he can stop it?
Here is the way I look at it:
If I see a child being raped, I would do everything within my power to stop it. Your god seems to just watch it happen to the child and then worry about punishing the perpetrator later. Is the free will of a child rapist more important than the welfare of the child? In what way does that help the raped child? I personally feel it is immoral of anyone, human or god like, to simply watch a horrible thing and do nothing about it when it is within your power to stop it. If you are a being of infinite wisdom, infinite love, and infinite power and you do nothing to prevent the rape of a child, then I am far more moral than that being. No way around it.

If you are a god-like being that has absolute control over your creation and you allow free-will that supersedes your own will, then you are responsible for the outcomes of your decision to allow this. There is no way you cannot be.

If Allah (swt) does not let sinful people do sin, the trial will not be done. Allah lets the child rapist do his evil doing, while He is unpleased of it (according to His legislative will). Allah is not happy when sees such this evil thing, but He usually does't prevent their happening, because this world is the world of trial. This world is not a world which only includes good, rather, it includes both good and evil.

Here is a good Hadith: Imam Ar-Ridha (peace be upon him) [8th Imam] said:
Ali bin Al-Husayn (peace be upon him) [4th Imam] said: ‘Allah Mighty and Majestic Said: “O son of Adam! By My wish (i.e., existential will) you wish for yourself whatever you wish, and by My Power you fulfill My obligations (i.e., the legislative wills of Him) to Me, and by My Favour and Blessing you strength upon disobeying Me (regarding legislative wills of Him). I have made you see and listen (so that, you can see and listen, and then understand that what is good and what is bad). Whatever you attains from the good deeds, so it is from Allah (because it is Allah Who shows peopel the good by guiding them through the Prophets and their intelligence), and whatever you attain from an evil, so it is from yourself (because it is bad people who ignore what Allah shows them as good by Prophets and their intelligence, and then choose the bad choice), and this is because I deserve your right deeds more than you (because it is Allah Who shows people the good and also they do it by the leave and power of Allah), and you deserve your wrong deeds more than Me (because Allah has shown people the evil and has not legislatively let them do it, but after all of these, they ignore the legislative wills of Him and do what they want), and this is because I am not questioned for what I do, but people are questioned for what they do" '. (At-Tawhid by Sheykh As-Saduq, P 338/ and Al-Kafi, V 1, P 160)

You are simply making assumptions about the slaves that you cannot support with hard evidence.

I say that virtually none of this matters. Your god allowed the situation to occur in the first place, therefore he bears responsibility for them even being slaves. In fact, since he supposedly created the universe and everything within it, he is ultimately responsible for virtually everything that occurs within the universe, including the supposed free will of humans that somehow supersedes the will of a god.. This is because everything would behave exactly as he planned for it to happen. An omniscient god would fully understand all of the consequences of his decisions and actions. Therefore he already knew there would be slaves and once he understood this (from the outset) he could have prevented this from happening in the first place and we would not be having this discussion. So he chose in the beginning to allow slavery by allowing free will to override his own wishes..

Your god could have simply stated outright in the beginning that slavery was immoral and not allowed it. Then the problem would not have existed in the first place.

Allah (swt) said to people that the slavery is not good. According to a tradition from Imam Musa Al-Kazim (peace be upon him) [7th infallible Imam], for Allah, upon the people, are two kinds of Proofs – an apparent Proof and a hidden and internal Proof. The Messengers (pbut), and the Prophets(pbut), and the Imams (pbut) are the apparent Proofs; and the intellect is the hidden and internal Proof.

So, Allah said to people through the Prophets and their intelligence that slavery is not good. So, is God responsible for what others do or those people who ignore the orders of Allah and abuse from their free-will?

Allah (swt) can force people to do what Himself likes, but, this forcing does not let to terial occur.

I say:
Again, none of this matters. Your god could have not allowed this situation to happen in the first place.

And I say:
Again, if God does not allow people to do what they wish, so the terial will not be done.
But, God is not responsible for evil doings that people do, because He has gave them the sight by which they can understand the badness of their doing and He has also warned them regarding bad doings and encourage them to do good ones.

So, I blame myself and people when we do an unworthy doing, not God. Imam Ali (peace be upon him) said:
"Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, has obligated people on the basis of their freedom and choice and has prohibited as a warning. He rewards a great deal for very little of deeds. Disobedience to Him is not due to His weakness or His defeat. Obedience to Him is not for compulsion and coercion. He has not given (the power to people) in the absolute sense (i.e., they do by the permission and power of Allah). He has not created the heavens and the earth and all that is between them without a purpose. He has not sent the Messengers and the Prophets to warn and promise people just to play a joke. Such could only be the belief of the unbelievers. Woe is for the unbelievers to suffer in the fire." (Al-Kafi, V 1, P155)

Best wishes!

 

[Shia Islam]

@YmirGF So you say that it is funny to suggest that issuing a direct order 1400 years back to free all slves at onwas not a practical and wise decision?!

Islam is against slavery.
The Quran is full of verses calling for freeing the slaves.

To understand how Islam has addressed the issue of slavery, one needs to know that the whole world order at that time was based on slavery.

If you are to issue orders to instantly free all the slaves, the slaves themselves will be the first victims.

So Islam has encouraged people to free their slaves, and has made it mandatory in certain cases that the owner of a slave has to free him/her, such as in certain cases of abuse of authority.

Also, Islam put a limit on the authority of the owners of the slaves upon their slaves.

In addition, the Quran has talked about the Mukataba المكاتبة contract, based on which the slave and his boss can agree that the slave will work and accumulate some agreed upon amount of money to buy his freedom from his boss.

These were some remarks only...

@YmirGF So if you were Muhammad would you have freed all the slaves at once?!

 

[mojtaba]

@YmirGF So you say that it is funny to suggest that issuing a direct order 1400 years back to free all slves at onwas not a practical and wise decision?!


@YmirGF So if you were Muhammad would you have freed all the slaves at once?!

Dear 'Shia Islam', YmirGF has began to rate all posts of Islam directory as funny. He does not rate them rationally. Do not upset yourself, and also do not ask him rational questions .

 

[Milton Platt]

Dear @Milton Platt,
Ask your questions freely. Such these questions are so important and their answers are more important than them. Amir Al-Mo'mineen Ali (peace be upon him), i.e. our 1th infallible Imam, said: القلوب أقفال و مفاتحها السؤال (Mind is blocked and its key is question). Imam Ja'far As-Sadiq (peace be upon him), i.e. our 6th infallible Imam, said: إِنَّمَا یَهْلِكُ النَّاسُ لِأَنَّهُمْ لَا یَسْأَلُونَ (People destroy, only because they do not ask their questions).
So, your questions are welcomed. Unfortunately I am so busy now-days, but I try to reply them as soon as posible.

If there is no free-will at all, so why does government punish those who do evil doings?
Why when a person does a bad doing, he/she be ashamed. If there is not any free-will, why is there the shame?

If a person is not responsible for what he/she does, why he/she be ashamed when he/she does an unworthy doing, or why does government punish him/her?


1.According to Shia belief, Allah's will is divided into existential (takwini) and legislative (tashri'i) will. Human free-will only can supersede the legislative will of Allah (i.e., religious laws). But, nothing can happen to be, except what Allah (swt) so wishes, and wills (i.e., existential will), and determines, and ordains. But, it should be noticed that this does not cancel human free-will. Because, one of the things that Allah has willed (i.e., existential will), is that human should have free-will. So, the existential will of Allah occurs through the will of man (understanding of this issue is hard, but I'm sure that you are smart and can understand it. Let yourself think about it, after thinking you can get the point).

2.Yes. Allah's existential will can override the free-will of man whenever He wishes. Because nothing can happen to be, except what Allah wills, not what man wills. But, Allah usually wills what man wills, because He does not want to force people to do whatever He wishes. And this is because this world is the world of trial.

Allah says:
Say, ‘Upon Allah rests [the setting of] the staright way. Had He wished, He would have surely guided you all [forcely].’[6:149]

But because Allah wants to terial people, He does not will to guide all the people forcely.

If Allah (swt) does not let sinful people do sin, the trial will not be done. Allah lets the child rapist do his evil doing, while He is unpleased of it (according to His legislative will). Allah is not happy when sees such this evil thing, but He usually does't prevent their happening, because this world is the world of trial. This world is not a world which only includes good, rather, it includes both good and evil.

Here is a good Hadith: Imam Ar-Ridha (peace be upon him) [8th Imam] said:
Ali bin Al-Husayn (peace be upon him) [4th Imam] said: ‘Allah Mighty and Majestic Said: “O son of Adam! By My wish (i.e., existential will) you wish for yourself whatever you wish, and by My Power you fulfill My obligations (i.e., the legislative wills of Him) to Me, and by My Favour and Blessing you strength upon disobeying Me (regarding legislative wills of Him). I have made you see and listen (so that, you can see and listen, and then understand that what is good and what is bad). Whatever you attains from the good deeds, so it is from Allah (because it is Allah Who shows peopel the good by guiding them through the Prophets and their intelligence), and whatever you attain from an evil, so it is from yourself (because it is bad people who ignore what Allah shows them as good by Prophets and their intelligence, and then choose the bad choice), and this is because I deserve your right deeds more than you (because it is Allah Who shows people the good and also they do it by the leave and power of Allah), and you deserve your wrong deeds more than Me (because Allah has shown people the evil and has not legislatively let them do it, but after all of these, they ignore the legislative wills of Him and do what they want), and this is because I am not questioned for what I do, but people are questioned for what they do" '. (At-Tawhid by Sheykh As-Saduq, P 338/ and Al-Kafi, V 1, P 160)


Allah (swt) said to people that the slavery is not good. According to a tradition from Imam Musa Al-Kazim (peace be upon him) [7th infallible Imam], for Allah, upon the people, are two kinds of Proofs – an apparent Proof and a hidden and internal Proof. The Messengers (pbut), and the Prophets(pbut), and the Imams (pbut) are the apparent Proofs; and the intellect is the hidden and internal Proof.

So, Allah said to people through the Prophets and their intelligence that slavery is not good. So, is God responsible for what others do or those people who ignore the orders of Allah and abuse from their free-will?

Allah (swt) can force people to do what Himself likes, but, this forcing does not let to terial occur.

And I say:
Again, if God does not allow people to do what they wish, so the terial will not be done.
But, God is not responsible for evil doings that people do, because He has gave them the sight by which they can understand the badness of their doing and He has also warned them regarding bad doings and encourage them to do good ones.

So, I blame myself and people when we do an unworthy doing, not God. Imam Ali (peace be upon him) said:
"Allah, the Most Holy, the Most High, has obligated people on the basis of their freedom and choice and has prohibited as a warning. He rewards a great deal for very little of deeds. Disobedience to Him is not due to His weakness or His defeat. Obedience to Him is not for compulsion and coercion. He has not given (the power to people) in the absolute sense (i.e., they do by the permission and power of Allah). He has not created the heavens and the earth and all that is between them without a purpose. He has not sent the Messengers and the Prophets to warn and promise people just to play a joke. Such could only be the belief of the unbelievers. Woe is for the unbelievers to suffer in the fire." (Al-Kafi, V 1, P155)

Best wishes!

I must say, I enjoyed your post. It was an interesting glimpse into how you justify your beliefs. I appreciate the effort involved in producing it.

However, you are missunderstanding my own viewpoint which is from a more fundamental level. My contention is that a god that designs a system....any system........is ultimately responsible for any and all outcomes that may occur from his decision to design it the way he did. This is especially true of an omniscscient being because he already knew all outcomes. That is what omniscient means. Perhaps you do not think Allah is all knowing an all seeing. Perhaps your god has limits. Further more, if true free will exists, then Allah CANNOT be omniscient. It means he does not know all things from the beginning and there are aspects of his creation which are absolutely out of his control. A god cannot have complete knowledge of his creation and at the same time allow free will.

Furthermore, if this is actually true, then he still bears responsibility for his decision to allow suffering, because he surely is not so limited in his power that this is the only way he could have designes the universe. It is fundamentally flawed reasoning to think that a god should design a being that can do immoral things, design a system that will allow the being to do those things, and then blame the being that is only doing the things the god designed him to do. Ferr will or no free will, the god is responsible in the end. The being he designed had no say in the design of himself or the system in which it lives. This is an inescapable truth.

 

[Shia Islam]

I do not have time to respond in a complete fashion and will do so when I have enough time to do justice to your reply.

Edit:
Been a busy day.... Okay, Before I get into my response to your post, thanks for your patient comebacks. If you look at my avatar, you can see that I'm an atheist....in fact a life-long atheist. I won't be suddenly converted to a theist by your arguments, and you certainly won't be converted suddenly to atheism just because I challenged the suppositions in your beliefs. That is not my mission. But both of us are made to think about what we believe (or in my case, do not believe) when we challenge each other. That makes both of us just a bit wiser. So to be fair, you do not need to just be on the defensive. You can question my worldview as well. After all, you are willing to put your beliefs out there for all to question.

Okay.....
You stated:
"This Question is based on the presumption that Humans have no free-well.

What we say is that Human have freewell, and they are the ones who created the problem. God internvetions will not negate the laws of this world that he has created."

Although there certainly are some good arguments against free will, I didn't have that in mind. But lets's talk about free will as well.....Does human free will, if it exists, supersede the will of god, or can he override it when he wishes? He seems to override it sometimes, at least in the Bible (I don't know about the Quran or other Islamic texts).

Is it moral of a god to allow human free will to cause suffering when he can stop it?

Here is the way I look at it:
If I see a child being raped, I would do everything within my power to stop it. Your god seems to just watch it happen to the child and then worry about punishing the perpetrator later. Is the free will of a child rapist more important than the welfare of the child? In what way does that help the raped child? I personally feel it is immoral of anyone, human or god like, to simply watch a horrible thing and do nothing about it when it is within your power to stop it. If you are a being of infinite wisdom, infinite love, and infinite power and you do nothing to prevent the rape of a child, then I am far more moral than that being. No way around it.

If you are a god-like being that has absolute control over your creation and you allow free-will that supersedes your own will, then you are responsible for the outcomes of your decision to allow this. There is no way you cannot be.

You said:
"First of all, Most of those slaves themselves were raised in a way that they themselves were not ready for freedom. Most of them came from far lands and have no means of facing the hard life themselves..
Even emotionally, they were not ready for freedom."

You are simply making assumptions about the slaves that you cannot support with hard evidence.

I say that virtually none of this matters. Your god allowed the situation to occur in the first place, therefore he bears responsibility for them even being slaves. In fact, since he supposedly created the universe and everything within it, he is ultimately responsible for virtually everything that occurs within the universe, including the supposed free will of humans that somehow supersedes the will of a god.. This is because everything would behave exactly as he planned for it to happen. An omniscient god would fully understand all of the consequences of his decisions and actions. Therefore he already knew there would be slaves and once he understood this (from the outset) he could have prevented this from happening in the first place and we would not be having this discussion. So he chose in the beginning to allow slavery by allowing free will to override his own wishes..

Your god could have simply stated outright in the beginning that slavery was immoral and not allowed it. Then the problem would not have existed in the first place.

You said:
"Then, if you are to free all the slaves at once, will stop the whole economical cycle of that society, and the owners of the slaves will not be able to compensate the slaves, assuming that the owners will not retaliate! If the slaves before the freedom were sheltered and provided with their basic needs, you will end up with a situation in which these slaves will become homeless!"

I say:
Again, none of this matters. Your god could have not allowed this situation to happen in the first place.

You're awesome....I can't have this discussion with most theists.

Hi,

This will probably be a post that belongs to the type of posts I used to write here in RF at the beginning of my membership! Where I joined in 2009.

I used to read books and materials written by the atheists and engage in debates with them..

However, my personal conclusion was that many atheists are atheists by choice…

And you my reply by saying that the same is true for the theists..

As a Shia Muslim, our belief is that religion can be proven by reason..

And let me say this.. since we are living in the era of Science, philosophy in the west is not living its Golden age..

On the other Hand, the Shia scholars continued their path of studying the books of the old Shia scholars who engaged in debates with the philosophies of those who don’t believe in God.

What I wanted to say is that engaging in debates with the atheist has increased my faith!

Now, let me address our topic…

I would start by saying that, with some small exceptions, Humans are – and to different levels- evil-doers.

As of those who represent the Exception, God will treat them exceptionally..

They will not suffer in Earth the way the other do.

Then when it comes to the normal non-exceptional humans, everyone of them is both a victim and a criminal at the same time.

When someone commits a crime, He is not alone in committing it, it is the crime of the whole society that rejected God and his laws..

Now, in this analysis we should not divide people in age groups, I mean when God looks at you or me He sees us as who we are, he is not bound by time, he sees us when we were spirit, when we came to this life and he sees the crimes that people will commit in the future..

So we can’t divide people into children and adults here…

The real story is the story of the humans who rejected God..

Now as some people are better than others, this will be offset by reward and punishment, in this world and in the Hereafter..

What is certain is that all humans will testify that God never do injustice, but rather He forgives and rewards people with more than what they deserve…

And as of slavery, God has created people equal, but they created slavery..

And as usual, time is needed to correct the mess that men has created..

We Shia Muslims believe that man evolves in his ethics ..and one day man will be ready to receive the great savior, the Mahdi.

All the best.

 

[Milton Platt]

Hi,

This will probably be a post that belongs to the type of posts I used to write here in RF at the beginning of my membership! Where I joined in 2009.

I used to read books and materials written by the atheists and engage in debates with them..

However, my personal conclusion was that many atheists are atheists by choice…

The only atheists that are not atheists by choice would be babies and children who are too young to have an educated opinion. Everyone is born an atheist, in the sense that they have no knowledge of any deities, therefore cannot believe in any, and then are taught to believe in the deity of their culture. Being an atheist as an adult involves looking critically at the evidence for those deities and realizing that the evidence is very poor for such an extraordinary claim, which makes belief irrational.

And you my reply by saying that the same is true for the theists..

Yes, I would say that theism is a choice. It is a choice that is influenced by the culture in which you live.

As a Shia Muslim, our belief is that religion can be proven by reason..

I have not found the reasoning to be sound. Furthermore, I would say that a great deal of hard, empirical evidence would be necessary to support such an outlandish claim. Philosophy does not provide that evidence.

And let me say this.. since we are living in the era of Science, philosophy in the west is not living its Golden age..

When trying to understand the the natural world, science has so far proven to be superior. I know of no way to scientifically test the supernatural, therefore I cannot know that it exists.
Sure, someone can BELIEVE it does, but belief and knowledge are not the same thing.

On the other Hand, the Shia scholars continued their path of studying the books of the old Shia scholars who engaged in debates with the philosophies of those who don’t believe in God.

What I wanted to say is that engaging in debates with the atheist has increased my faith!

Then you have been doing it with a closed mind.

I am not generally interested in faith, in the religious sense of the word. I am more interested in knowledge. Faith is not a reliable pathway to correct knowledge.

Now, let me address our topic…

I would start by saying that, with some small exceptions, Humans are – and to different levels- evil-doers.

Evil is a concept used by humans to describe an event or circumstance which they find offensive. In the rest of the animal kingdom this concept is less defined, but can still be expressed. What one person sees as evil, the next sees as desirable. Evil and good (or morality, for simplicity of speech) is defined by the society within which we live.

As of those who represent the Exception, God will treat them exceptionally..

After thousands of years, there is still no good evidence for the existence of any god.

They will not suffer in Earth the way the other do.

Until the existence of a god (yours or some other) is demonstrated beyond any shadow of a doubt, that statement holds no value. You cannot establish the existence of a supernatural being with philosophy. There has to be some way to quantify and measure the thing you are saying exists.

Then when it comes to the normal non-exceptional humans, everyone of them is both a victim and a criminal at the same time.

When someone commits a crime, He is not alone in committing it, it is the crime of the whole society that rejected God and his laws.

I believe that although there is also a genetic component at play sometimes, the primary influence of any person's personality is due to his environment...both at home when a child and within the society.
But the influence of his upbringing is the dominant force of the two. So we seem to agree, except I see no need for the god.

Now, in this analysis we should not divide people in age groups, I mean when God looks at you or me He sees us as who we are, he is not bound by time, he sees us when we were spirit, when we came to this life and he sees the crimes that people will commit in the future..

Without empirical evidence, this statement is a hollow opinion and nothing more.

So we can’t divide people into children and adults here…

Well, we can....I don't see babies as doing evil things.

The real story is the story of the humans who rejected God..

Demonstrate that the god exists and then we can talk about this.

Now as some people are better than others, this will be offset by reward and punishment, in this world and in the Hereafter..

What is certain is that all humans will testify that God never do injustice, but rather He forgives and rewards people with more than what they deserve…

If he gives people more than they deserve, then that is injustice. Mercy is the suspension of justice. Justice demands that people get exactly what they deserve, If the get less punishment or more reward than they should, then that is mercy, but not justice. You cannot have both at the same time.

And as of slavery, God has created people equal, but they created slavery..

I still maintain that if your god created the system and the humans, then he is responsible for the outcome of his system and creations. The people only did what they were designed to do.

And as usual, time is needed to correct the mess that men has created..

I also believe we are the result of evolution and that we are certainly responsible for any real or perceived "mess" we have created. I do not believe the invention of a god is necessary for this to be true.

We Shia Muslims believe that man evolves in his ethics ..and one day man will be ready to receive the great savior, the Mahdi.

Atheists generally also believe humans are still evolving in a number of ways.
All the best.

 

[zahra67]

hello.
the reason God forgives and rewards people with more than what they deserve…
its because of God's generosity and graces towards his servants.
God is just and also infinite merciful and gracious!
we do Good deeds in the finite world in this limited time and life and recieve eternal bliss of paradise for it!
it indicates infinite graces of God!
in the holy quran verses 25 and 26 of chapter 42 we read:

And He it is Who accepts repentance from His servants and pardons the evil
deeds and He knows what you do;
And He answers those who believe and do good deeds, and gives them more out
of His grace; and [as for] the unbelievers, they shall have a severe punishment.
God created man according to monotheism and showed them the way of achieving salvation.
God created all means for us to attain salvation and desires to guide us.
but if we dont accept his guidance, its our mistake, because we! lost the salvation and did not help ourselves to attain it.
in verse 28 of chapter 7 in the holy Quran we read:

And when they commit an indecency they say: We found our fathers doing this,
and Allah has enjoined it on us. Say: Surely Allah does not enjoin indecency; do
you say against Allah what you do not know?

in verses 90 and 97 of chapter 16 of the holy Quran we read:
Surely Allah enjoins the doing of justice and the doing of good [to others]
and the giving to the kindred, and He forbids indecency and evil and rebellion;
He admonishes you that you may be mindful.

Whoever does good whether male or female and he is a believer, We will most
certainly make him live a happy life, and We will most certainly give them their
reward for the best of what they did.

and the people who forget God they forget there divine nature and lose the way of salvation by there freewill.
God says in chapter 30 verse 30 of the holy Quran:
Then set your face upright for religion in the right state-- the nature made
by Allah in which He has made men; there is no altering of Allah's creation;
that is the right religion, but most people do not know.
In a divine saying, we read:
لو علم المدبرون کيف اشتياقي بهم لماتوا شوقا
If the people who have turned their back on Me knew how much I love them to come back they would have died out of joy.
i recommend you to study this book.
Understanding God's Mercy, Part 1

 

[YmirGF]

@YmirGF So you say that it is funny to suggest that issuing a direct order 1400 years back to free all slves at onwas not a practical and wise decision?!


@YmirGF So if you were Muhammad would you have freed all the slaves at once?!

Respectfully, I cannot discuss this topic, in this DIR as doing so is forbidden by well established rules on RF. That said, I'd love to discuss this (and other) topics with Muslims in areas on RF that do not limit the nature of my contributions.