Being religious in Judaism

[Leo613]

There is a difference between a cheit and an aveirah http://judaism.stackexchange.com/a/29370/1362

who knows What other people are thinking? we can't judge.

 

[rosends]

who knows What other people are thinking? we can't judge.

a) yes we can
b) what others are thinking isn't material.

 

[Shaul]

Isn't it impossible to keep Shabbat properly?

In other words, you think G-d commanded us to keep the Sabbath while He knew we could not?

Here's an idea. Let's keep the Sabbath as best we can. Then even if that isn't "good enough"(whatever that means) we can at least said we did our best. You know, it's just crazy enough to try to do what G-d asked us to do. It might even (gasp) work! ;-)

 

[Leo613]

a) yes we can
b) what others are thinking isn't material.

You said that that keeping Shabbat is important because in the Talmud your not able to be witness if you don't keep Shabbat so I said it's impossible to keep 100 percent so u said it depends if its on purpose so I said how do you know what's in his mind. You said it doesn't matter. I'm asking what u mean?

 

[Leo613]

In other words, you think G-d commanded us to keep the Sabbath while He knew we could not?

Here's an idea. Let's keep the Sabbath as best we can. Then even if that isn't "good enough"(whatever that means) we can at least said we did our best. You know, it's just crazy enough to try to do what G-d asked us to do. It might even (gasp) work! ;-)

I think you missed the beginning of conversation.

 

[rosends]

You said that that keeping Shabbat is important because in the Talmud your not able to be witness if you don't keep Shabbat so I said it's impossible to keep 100 percent so u said it depends if its on purpose so I said how do you know what's in his mind. You said it doesn't matter. I'm asking what u mean?

If one is a shogeig, he is not being mechalel shabbos with intent so he can still be an eid. Clearly, intent and knowledge matter. This is predicated on your insistence that one cannot keep shabbos 100% which I don't accept. If you insist that no one can know someone's mind, how can there be categories of shogeig vs. meizid? It isn't about what OTHERS are thinking, it is about what the person who acts has been told.

 

[Leo613]

If one is a shogeig, he is not being mechalel shabbos with intent so he can still be an eid. Clearly, intent and knowledge matter. This is predicated on your insistence that one cannot keep shabbos 100% which I don't accept. If you insist that no one can know someone's mind, how can there be categories of shogeig vs. meizid? It isn't about what OTHERS are thinking, it is about what the person who acts has been told.

In my opinion when it comes to Shabbat we're not really doing on purpose we can't help it.

 

[rosends]

In my opinion when it comes to Shabbat we're not really doing on purpose we can't help it.

So if I flip the light switch on and off repeatedly knowing that it is not allowed, I am not doing it on purpose?

 

[Leo613]

So if I flip the light switch on and off repeatedly knowing that it is not allowed, I am not doing it on purpose?

In this generation we're not on a high level that we can be blamed for that kind misunderstanding

 

[rosends]

In this generation we're not on a high level that we can be blamed for that kind misunderstanding

"misunderstanding"? I know it isn't allowed but I do it anyway. That's a misunderstanding? If that's your position then I can't explain anything else.

 

[Leo613]

"misunderstanding"? I know it isn't allowed but I do it anyway. That's a misunderstanding? If that's your position then I can't explain anything else.

In general people that don't keep Shabbat now days don't do it on purpose there's too many outside influences they can't help it.

 

[rosends]

In general people that don't keep Shabbat now days don't do it on purpose there's too many outside influences they can't help it.

So if I tell someone "flipping the light on or off is against the rules" and then he does, there are too many outside influences to hold someone responsible for that behavior?

 

[Leo613]

So if I tell someone "flipping the light on or off is against the rules" and then he does, there are too many outside influences to hold someone responsible for that behavior?

My point was why is there a double standard with some religious jews, as long as they fit the stereotypes even if they don't keep certain commandments they're still considered religious but someone who doesn't fit the stereotypes but keeps a lot of commandments is not considered religious.

 

[rosends]

My point was why is there a double standard with some religious jews, as long as they fit the stereotypes even if they don't keep certain commandments they're still considered religious but someone who doesn't fit the stereotypes but keeps a lot of commandments is not considered religious.

That's a false image. if I see a guy dressed as a chareidi eating lobster, lighting a cigarette on shabbos or murdering someone, I say that he isn't religious. If I see a guy swindle people or worship idols, I say he isn't religious. It just so happens, that eating non-kosher and breaking the sabbath happen more often in public and are liable to judgment.

 

[Leo613]

That's a false image. if I see a guy dressed as a chareidi eating lobster, lighting a cigarette on shabbos or murdering someone, I say that he isn't religious. If I see a guy swindle people or worship idols, I say he isn't religious. It just so happens, that eating non-kosher and breaking the sabbath happen more often in public and are liable to judgment.

Why is it in the paper's you see altra orthodox Jews and sex scandals or money scams?

What u mean non kosher and Shabbat are liable to judgment? From who?

 

[rosends]

Why is it in the paper's you see altra orthodox Jews and sex scandals or money scams?

What u mean non kosher and Shabbat are liable to judgment? From who?

From others who say they are "not religious." And guys who are in sex scandals and money scams are likewise "not religious." What's the problem with that?

 

[Leo613]

From others who say they are "not religious." And guys who are in sex scandals and money scams are likewise "not religious." What's the problem with that?

The religious community regard them as religious orthodox even if they committed sex scandels or money scams?

 

[rosends]

The religious community regard them as religious orthodox even if they committed sex scandels or money scams?

No, it doesn't. Since I live in that community and speak from knowledge, I wonder why you insist this to be true.

 

[Leo613]

No, it doesn't. Since I live in that community and speak from knowledge, I wonder why you insist this to be true.

In my community they're totally corrupt socially financially etc. but because they're rabbis they're given respect and regarded as religious orthodox and the rest.

 

[rosends]

In my community they're totally corrupt socially financially etc. but because they're rabbis they're given respect and regarded as religious orthodox and the rest.

so you should ask your community, not assume that it is something endemic in the world as a whole.