Belief and afterlife

[arthra]

And with those who do not have a particular belief, with varying degree of understanding and achievement in terms of spirituality, will be (which is really personal believe) free (and become a being greater than mortal), reincarnated, or bounded in this world (which is what we called ghost, or of course for other reasons such as Necromancy). This I believe also apply to anti-theists.

In my belief the after-life is not defined as some but we do not believe in reincarnation... nor do we believe the soul is "incarnated" in this life, rather the soul is a spiritual light well reflected when we live a life free from material attachments and having virtues. We do not believe we will become "greater than mortal" as the spiritual is already above time and material things. Nor are there demons or ghosts..these are more based on superstition.

The rewards of the other world are the perfections and the peace obtained in the spiritual worlds after leaving this world; whilst the rewards of this life are the real luminous perfections which are realized in this world, and which are the cause of eternal life, for they are the very progress of existence. It is like the man who passes from the embryonic world to the state of maturity, and becomes the manifestation of these words: "Blessed be God, the best of creators." The rewards of the other world are peace, the spiritual graces, the various spiritual gifts in the Kingdom of God, the gaining of the desires of the heart and the soul, and the meeting of God in the world of eternity.

~ Abdu'l-Baha, Baha'i World Faith, p. 324

 

[Windwalker]

First I believe in Mysticism, and see deities only as superior beings whose existence we cannot yet comprehend, in other words ultimately indifferent.

I am not sure how what you describe here about deities can be defined as "mysticism", nor how one can actually believe in mysticism. You either are a mystic or you're not, and it has nothing to do with beliefs but state experiences. You can have a Christian mystic, a Hindu mystic, an atheist mystic, and so forth. You don't "believe in" mysticism. You practice mysticism through various means such as meditation.

Nonetheless the rest of what you say I find interesting and worth giving feedback on...

So to my understanding (which is sadly little) that if you believe in a certain faith, you would end up in that afterlife. So Say you are Christian, then you will go to Christian Heaven because you are connected to that deity and will thus go to his dimension. If you have a different belief, then you will go to that afterlife.

What I find interesting about this is that in a sense there is a certain truth to this, but not in the literal meaning. It is true generally speaking that a Christian in a mystical state will have an "encounter" with the figures from his religious context. He or she may meet the Virgin Mary, or Jesus, or God the Father, and so forth. The Hindu will experience Krisha, or Kali, and any number of the various figures of their religion. And so on and so forth.

So in this sense that in a mystical state, the shape and form that particular state experience may take for the person, draws its form, takes on its color, from the palette of symbolism for that person's culture and underlying religion. In other words, the culture and religion of the person provides the language that their minds will use to try to put a face on these subtle-level experiences. So yes, they go to the "Christian heaven", or the Buddhist Bardo realm, etc.

But in reality, they both and all are going to the "same place", which is a state experience of the Transcendent. There is no literal Christian heaven, as a "place" in and of itself. It is an interpretation of an experience of Transcendence. The common 'place' where everyone 'goes' is into a subtle-state mystical experience. The faces we put upon these, are just that; faces. Symbols are fingers pointing to the moon, but are not the moon itself.

And with your believe, you will be judged to be derived further.

And the images and narratives of one's religious structures provides the tensions which people use to grow and develop judging themselves against. But that happens here and now, in this life. Does that continue after you have finally snuffed out the candle of your life here on earth?

No, I do not believe so, as all of these symbols and languages drop off like the scaffolding supporting a rocket on its launch pad. They no longer continue to influence the essence of who we are before and beyond entrance into this world. That only happens while our brains are alive and using those structures. So the 'soul' of the person, if you will, doesn't keep being influenced by these stories, these mythologies and their influential symbolism into some 'afterlife'.

 

[Quintessence]

@YAW7911

I'm curious about the journeys that led you to the ideas you present in the opening post. Where do you feel this was inspired by? Was it something outside of yourself, that someone else may have taught you? Was there some introspection and reflection involved? Feelings and emotions? Your sense of ethics and fairness? What makes this particular belief appeal to you?

 

[YAW7911]

I am not sure how what you describe here about deities can be defined as "mysticism", nor how one can actually believe in mysticism. You either are a mystic or you're not, and it has nothing to do with beliefs but state experiences. You can have a Christian mystic, a Hindu mystic, an atheist mystic, and so forth. You don't "believe in" mysticism. You practice mysticism through various means such as meditation.

Nonetheless the rest of what you say I find interesting and worth giving feedback on...


What I find interesting about this is that in a sense there is a certain truth to this, but not in the literal meaning. It is true generally speaking that a Christian in a mystical state will have an "encounter" with the figures from his religious context. He or she may meet the Virgin Mary, or Jesus, or God the Father, and so forth. The Hindu will experience Krisha, or Kali, and any number of the various figures of their religion. And so on and so forth.

So in this sense that in a mystical state, the shape and form that particular state experience may take for the person, draws its form, takes on its color, from the palette of symbolism for that person's culture and underlying religion. In other words, the culture and religion of the person provides the language that their minds will use to try to put a face on these subtle-level experiences. So yes, they go to the "Christian heaven", or the Buddhist Bardo realm, etc.

But in reality, they both and all are going to the "same place", which is a state experience of the Transcendent. There is no literal Christian heaven, as a "place" in and of itself. It is an interpretation of an experience of Transcendence. The common 'place' where everyone 'goes' is into a subtle-state mystical experience. The faces we put upon these, are just that; faces. Symbols are fingers pointing to the moon, but are not the moon itself.


And the images and narratives of one's religious structures provides the tensions which people use to grow and develop judging themselves against. But that happens here and now, in this life. Does that continue after you have finally snuffed out the candle of your life here on earth?

No, I do not believe so, as all of these symbols and languages drop off like the scaffolding supporting a rocket on its launch pad. They no longer continue to influence the essence of who we are before and beyond entrance into this world. That only happens while our brains are alive and using those structures. So the 'soul' of the person, if you will, doesn't keep being influenced by these stories, these mythologies and their influential symbolism into some 'afterlife'.

I was refering to a system that deity having a mutual effect with its worshippers, and that each while being an aspect of something greater but have its own individuality.
Of course religion merely being a way to intrepret spirituality could make more sense, but some of other experience would siggest that effect could be true.
@Windwalker I grew up in an environment where religions are frawned upon but the one that affect me the most is Taoism. In this system, deities are merely a greater menifestion of nature(and the one known to us are more knowable and thus hold less importance). I have also absorbed some belief from the Greeks and even a bit from fictions which ultimately reflects upon Lovecraftian mythos. I was a Pagan for a little while until on of my rituals went wrong bu I manage to get out of it with a bit of Shamanism practice. Upon that point I realized I lack faith or I am looking at religion the wrong way.

 

[Windwalker]

I was refering to a system that deity having a mutual effect with its worshippers, and that each while being an aspect of something greater but have its own individuality.

Yes, I think we are pretty much saying the same thing in different ways.

I grew up in an environment where religions are frawned upon but the one that affect me the most is Taoism.

I'm assuming this is some place like a Communist China?

I was a Pagan for a little while until on of my rituals went wrong bu I manage to get out of it with a bit of Shamanism practice. Upon that point I realized I lack faith or I am looking at religion the wrong way.

Though I've not been a Pagan, I do understand state experience and the role of ritual in attaining them. Where something "goes wrong" is really a matter of the preparation of the person's psyche to move into such states. You do have to be prepared for what you might open to in yourself and be in a 'safe space' in order to encounter that. A lot of people freak out when they meet their own hidden selves in the shadows. Is that a 'lack of faith"? I suppose in a sense you could say so. You have to be rooted and grounded and unafraid to encounter whatever arises, both brilliant and dark. You could say faith is a matter of standing without fear, no matter what, even in the face of annihilation. Honestly, most people don't have genuine faith, but just beliefs about stuff they call faith.

 

[YAW7911]

Yes, I think we are pretty much saying the same thing in different ways.


I'm assuming this is some place like a Communist China?


Though I've not been a Pagan, I do understand state experience and the role of ritual in attaining them. Where something "goes wrong" is really a matter of the preparation of the person's psyche to move into such states. You do have to be prepared for what you might open to in yourself and be in a 'safe space' in order to encounter that. A lot of people freak out when they meet their own hidden selves in the shadows. Is that a 'lack of faith"? I suppose in a sense you could say so. You have to be rooted and grounded and unafraid to encounter whatever arises, both brilliant and dark. You could say faith is a matter of standing without fear, no matter what, even in the face of annihilation. Honestly, most people don't have genuine faith, but just beliefs about stuff they call faith.

Yep. Communists hate Christianity and we have had hundred of years of conflict with Muslim, so neither is prominent. And I grew up learning about other Polytheism in world history and when I got in touch with Arbhamic religions it becomes really hard to overlook the dark age and bloody takeover of India by Muslim, which would spread further into Chinese boarders.
About the failed ritual.
An interesting thought, but I do feel being possessed. It could be an aspect of myself but it is not out of the possiblity of a distinct entity. But it still intrigues me how spirits (ever heard about astral body) work, how they can occupy the same space as physical body(if they are composed of other world sustances or if we merely share the position in 3d space), how gravity seems to be unable to affect them(not that they are prominent on earth), how they can induce neural process and motion, how they process information(is concept such as charge alien to them, if then is another form of potential that dectate thsi capability and if that could be explored with our astral body) and so forth.

 

[Windwalker]

About the failed ritual.
An interesting thought, but I do feel being possessed. It could be an aspect of myself but it is not out of the possiblity of a distinct entity.

I tend not to think of these things as distinctly separate from ourselves, even though to our minds it may feel or appear that way. The reason for that sense of being external to us, or "other" to us, is because we disown aspects of ourselves we do not wish were part of us. So when that disowned part surfaces, in whatever way that surfaces, it has that "not me" aspect to it, because we have disowned it. We've denied and rejected it for so long, buried it deep into our subconscious minds, that when we encounter it on a conscious level, it is typically dark and foreign to us, a sense of dread, of 'evil' even, depending how we have held it in our own subconscious prison.

Part of the process of healing ourselves does in fact take you into the dark where these "demons" live. If you look at the stories in the great traditions you have their Jesus' or their Buddha's having an encounter, a confrontation with the devil, right before their enlightenment. There's a reason for that I believe, because if we are hiding aspects of ourselves in the dark, making them into what seems "other" to us, the devil, then we cannot fully move into the Light. You can't have parts of yourself broken off and denied, and experience full Liberation, or Freedom.

All these stories, and rituals, in one form or another are about making ourselves whole and transcending ourselves into our true Self. It's a scary process for most, and why many just become religious instead, seeking salvation outside themselves, which is yet another form of avoiding confronting the devil, which is of our own creation.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Evidence please.

Where did the matter in the universe come from? (Intermediate) - Curious About Astronomy? Ask an Astronomer

Actually, the matter formed from the energy of the Big Bang.

You said that the Cosmos came from a singularity. You also said everything has a consciousness. Did this Singularity of yours have consciousness or not?

As you say, Humans have consciousness, but please show me how your consciousness can create something intelligent from absolutely nothing.

Clearly consciousness by itself can not create anything. It requires a will, intelligence and copious amounts of Power, enough to create a Universe. What kind of Almighty Being does this sound like?

I said the universe formed itself. There was no outside force needed. There's no creator/created dichotomy in my views.

 

[Muslim-UK]

Where did the matter in the universe come from? (Intermediate) - Curious About Astronomy? Ask an Astronomer

The energy for the Big Bang came from energy generated by light. How do Scientists know this? They created a vacuum and using 2 mirrors were able to generate light protons. Notice you have to create a vacuum and use mirrors to lend weight to this theory.

The Large Hadron Collider at CERN is 28km long, jam packed with technology, took decades to build and is run by some of the brightest brains on the Planet. They introduce charged hydrogen particles and then accelerate them at the speed of light. They observe the results as they collide, generating matter, anti matter and the 'god' particle, the Higgs boson, which is so rare it takes a Billion collisions to produce just one.

All that brain power and technology just to create a single particle to give insight into the inner workings of the Universe. So what kind of intelligence was involved to be able to generate the energy needed to create the Universe from a single point, and then ensured 26 Universal constants were in place to produce a finely tuned Universe, that is able to perfectly create the conditions to sustain life???

Most of the fine tuning in the Universe has a 1% leeway, outside of that everything is a fail. Evolutionist will tell you that is pure luck and chance, overlooking the fact that tuning is within 120 decimal places! Making it an extreme example of fine tuning ever witnessed. No force in cosmology has ever been discovered to be that finely tuned. The cosmological constant needs to be set to 1 part in a trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion otherwise universe would be so drastically different that it would be impossible for us to come about. That the cosmological arrived at a tiny number per chance is out of the question.

The more people deny and point to random chance, the more one can see evidence of GOD.

I said the universe formed itself. There was no outside force needed. There's no creator/created dichotomy in my views.

Yes only if you ignore all the evidence.

 

[YAW7911]

Where did the matter in the universe come from? (Intermediate) - Curious About Astronomy? Ask an Astronomer

Actually, the matter formed from the energy of the Big Bang.


I said the universe formed itself. There was no outside force needed. There's no creator/created dichotomy in my views.

Think of it as the they came into being before us, but existence have always predates them. Then these beings regulated natural laws further, but at some level they are also manifestation of nature. One way to interpret that is nothing exist on purpose.

The energy for the Big Bang came from energy generated by light. How do Scientists know this? They created a vacuum and using 2 mirrors were able to generate light protons. Notice you have to create a vacuum and use mirrors to lend weight to this theory.

The Large Hadron Collider at CERN is 28km long, jam packed with technology, took decades to build and is run by some of the brightest brains on the Planet. They introduce charged hydrogen particles and then accelerate them at the speed of light. They observe the results as they collide, generating matter, anti matter and the 'god' particle, the Higgs boson, which is so rare it takes a Billion collisions to produce just one.

All that brain power and technology just to create a single particle to give insight into the inner workings of the Universe. So what kind of intelligence was involved to be able to generate the energy needed to create the Universe from a single point, and then ensured 26 Universal constants were in place to produce a finely tuned Universe, that is able to perfectly create the conditions to sustain life???

Most of the fine tuning in the Universe has a 1% leeway, outside of that everything is a fail. Evolutionist will tell you that is pure luck and chance, overlooking the fact that tuning is within 120 decimal places! Making it an extreme example of fine tuning ever witnessed. No force in cosmology has ever been discovered to be that finely tuned. The cosmological constant needs to be set to 1 part in a trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion otherwise universe would be so drastically different that it would be impossible for us to come about. That the cosmological arrived at a tiny number per chance is out of the question.

The more people deny and point to random chance, the more one can see evidence of GOD.

Yes only if you ignore all the evidence.

Higgs boson, i.e. "God Particle", is related the properties of mass and inertia. We aren't even sure dark matter interact with it.
Actually due to infinite tries at one point a specific outcome will occur, but again probability means we simply do not know what causes things to act differently.
And I don't really see any evidence a sky father (head pantheon and commonly responsible for mortal existence but not quite primordial in Polytheism. By lore Monotheism god is at this level) is remotely comparable to GOD, which is should never be worshiped if you want your existence to continue.

 

[Epic Beard Man]

There are no multiple deities, you say they are indifferent, but yet acknowledge they will reward their believers. So are they indifferent or not?

There are Demons besides Satan that have their own Kingdoms and perhaps people think them as being divine beings, but they will be of zero assistance when you die.

We ALL return to ALLAH swt. Whatever you believe will have to be explained when you stand before Him. If you followed what your forefathers taught blindly, then you will be judged accordingly. There is a vast plain between Hell and Heaven for those who followed the wrong path, but didn't harm others in doing so. Please go and sit there for a time before being allowed into the lowest Heaven.

Why do you accept spiritual deism when we have clear guidance given to us from the first man created?

I rather be in the lowest heaven to meet God than the highest....

 

[Muslim-UK]

I rather be in the lowest heaven to meet God than the highest....

That's a very noble goal for one to work towards. May God help you attain it.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

The energy for the Big Bang came from energy generated by light. How do Scientists know this? They created a vacuum and using 2 mirrors were able to generate light protons. Notice you have to create a vacuum and use mirrors to lend weight to this theory.

The Large Hadron Collider at CERN is 28km long, jam packed with technology, took decades to build and is run by some of the brightest brains on the Planet. They introduce charged hydrogen particles and then accelerate them at the speed of light. They observe the results as they collide, generating matter, anti matter and the 'god' particle, the Higgs boson, which is so rare it takes a Billion collisions to produce just one.

All that brain power and technology just to create a single particle to give insight into the inner workings of the Universe. So what kind of intelligence was involved to be able to generate the energy needed to create the Universe from a single point, and then ensured 26 Universal constants were in place to produce a finely tuned Universe, that is able to perfectly create the conditions to sustain life???

Most of the fine tuning in the Universe has a 1% leeway, outside of that everything is a fail. Evolutionist will tell you that is pure luck and chance, overlooking the fact that tuning is within 120 decimal places! Making it an extreme example of fine tuning ever witnessed. No force in cosmology has ever been discovered to be that finely tuned. The cosmological constant needs to be set to 1 part in a trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion trillion otherwise universe would be so drastically different that it would be impossible for us to come about. That the cosmological arrived at a tiny number per chance is out of the question.

The more people deny and point to random chance, the more one can see evidence of GOD.

Yes only if you ignore all the evidence.

I said I'm not buying what you're selling.

 

[The magical volleyball]

Why is belief in an afterlife necessary to the way one lives there life? If its not necessary then why believe based on zero evidence that there is an afterlife at all?

 

[YAW7911]

Why is belief in an afterlife necessary to the way one lives there life? If its not necessary then why believe based on zero evidence that there is an afterlife at all?

Some have experienced different levels of mythical events but I guess it have to do with the believe you grow up with. On the other hand, regardless of afterlife or not, some might perfer perishng after death.