Belief and Nonbelief

[russ0692]

I hope that this is a good place to get some ideas on a question that has puzzled me for some time.

Let me state the question and then try to frame it a bit.
“Why are some people naturally predisposed to belief in a God while others aren’t?” For reference, I’m an atheist as it pertains to belief in a traditional god and am agnostic regarding whether there is any ultimate objective “point” to existence.

I don’t think that belief in a God or lack thereof has anything to do with intelligence. I know for a fact that there are people from both sides of the fence that are much smarter than I am. To me it feels more like being either left or right handed. I couldn't choose to change my mind on this.

It's also not from a lack of information. The arguments for and against have been beat to death. I'm pretty sure I'm not going to be presented with some irrefutable fact that will cause the proverbial scales to fall from my eyes. The opposite seems to be true for theists among us.

So, any thoughts would be appreciated.

 

[George-ananda]

So, any thoughts would be appreciated.

Actually I think there are some hereditary and environmental causes for atheism and theism. Genetically, I think the more left-brained someone is, the more likely they are to be atheist. The more right-brained someone is the more likely they are to believe in God, angels, psychic things etc.

Environment is another factor. Left-brained people confronted with a traditional Christian belief structure will rebel against the logical problems they see. This will influence their entire view of the universe. They will also be the type that then prefers to not believe in any type of human phenomena (religious or paranormal) that contradicts their preferred logical and materialistic view of things. For example, I think atheism is extra high in people of northern European ancestry because of a Christian tradition and a preference towards left-brained thinking.

I think other groups like Africans, Native Americans are more in touch with their right-brain and feel spirits and such things as natural parts of the environment.

I personally am left-brained, and once an atheist. My 'conversion' to the spiritual came from my logical analysis of many types of paranormal phenomena that convinced me that non-physical entities exist beyond reasonable doubt and need to be incorporated into my world-view.

I also agree with your point that the traditional logical arguments will never settle the issue. We need real-world evidence or direct experience.

 

[LuisDantas]

So, any thoughts would be appreciated.

A few IMO significant considerations spring to mind.

1. Belief in a deity-figure is not supposed to be of any real importance, despite cultural trends to the contrary. How significant can a deity that must be validated by believers be?

2. Likewise, "existence" is perhaps the most unlikely and least important attribute that a deity might conceivably have. Their actual attributes are far more important than their hypothetical existence.

3. The relationship between a religious person or believer and a deity is inherently very personal and there is no good reason to expect others to quite understand its significance and meaning, let alone to want to convince others of its "truth".

There are many who disagree with some or all of the above points, particularly among the Abrahamics. Personally, I think those are abusing the concept of deity rather tragically.

 

[Skwim]

As a hard determinist I contend that people can think and act no differently than they do. People are predisposed to belief in a God because that's what they must do, just as those who don't believe in god can do no differently. There's no choosing one or the other.


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[Unveiled Artist]

I hope that this is a good place to get some ideas on a question that has puzzled me for some time.

Let me state the question and then try to frame it a bit.
“Why are some people naturally predisposed to belief in a God while others aren’t?” For reference, I’m an atheist as it pertains to belief in a traditional god and am agnostic regarding whether there is any ultimate objective “point” to existence.

I don’t think that belief in a God or lack thereof has anything to do with intelligence. I know for a fact that there are people from both sides of the fence that are much smarter than I am. To me it feels more like being either left or right handed. I couldn't choose to change my mind on this.

It's also not from a lack of information. The arguments for and against have been beat to death. I'm pretty sure I'm not going to be presented with some irrefutable fact that will cause the proverbial scales to fall from my eyes. The opposite seems to be true for theists among us.

So, any thoughts would be appreciated.

I feel it has a lot to do with how one is raised and their environment.

For example, my catholic friend already told me she a d her boyfriend will raise their child catholic with no regards to that childs own identity spiritually as he or she ages.

While I read a hearing woman was raised by Deaf parents in a environment and surprisingly city who are all Deaf. As a result, she never knew people "talked". She also didnt have association of meaning to sounds because everything is communicatd visually.

In both cases, the soon to be indoctroninated child and hearing woman didnt inherit the traits say "Belief in deity" and Deafness. It was imposed on them in one way or another.

I grew up non religious in a non religious immediate family. My family believes in spirits etc, but like George said about African and Native traditions, we saw them nondifferently than anything and one else in our environment.

So, if someone has a predosition to believe in god the closest I can see is we all try to find a psychological ned for purpose whether its survival or leisure. We are always trying to find the source. Whoever made this psychological and natural idea spiritual, I dont know. Outside of psychology, its situational, environmental, by experience, and upbringing. Nothing inherit.

 

[bobhikes]

I hope that this is a good place to get some ideas on a question that has puzzled me for some time.

Let me state the question and then try to frame it a bit.
“Why are some people naturally predisposed to belief in a God while others aren’t?” For reference, I’m an atheist as it pertains to belief in a traditional god and am agnostic regarding whether there is any ultimate objective “point” to existence.

I don’t think that belief in a God or lack thereof has anything to do with intelligence. I know for a fact that there are people from both sides of the fence that are much smarter than I am. To me it feels more like being either left or right handed. I couldn't choose to change my mind on this.

It's also not from a lack of information. The arguments for and against have been beat to death. I'm pretty sure I'm not going to be presented with some irrefutable fact that will cause the proverbial scales to fall from my eyes. The opposite seems to be true for theists among us.

So, any thoughts would be appreciated.

I think it has to do with open mindedness and closed mindedness. If you are raised with a belief and a closed mind you will of course follow that belief. If you are raised with an open mind you have 2 options to embrace the belief with gusto or to leave the belief dependent on outside influence. As someone with an open mind who changed belief my first instinct was to close my mind and support my new belief with gusto. I became an extreme believer. Over time my natural instinct to be open minded came back and I tempered my belief, honestly I've gotten to the point were it is balanced and I can support equally contrary beliefs.

I truly believe that if you can remain open minded beliefs will have no sway on us. It is not belief but closed mindedness that causes all the problems in the world.

There are many things that can close our minds.
Family, tragedy, logic, faith, fear, anger, celebration, addiction ... fill in your own.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

I don’t think that belief in a God or lack thereof has anything to do with intelligence. I know for a fact that there are people from both sides of the fence that are much smarter than I am. To me it feels more like being either left or right handed. I couldn't choose to change my mind on this.

Is it that some people need such beliefs more than others?

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

Actually I think there are some hereditary and environmental causes for atheism and theism. Genetically, I think the more left-brained someone is, the more likely they are to be atheist. The more right-brained someone is the more likely they are to believe in God, angels, psychic things etc.

Environment is another factor. Left-brained people confronted with a traditional Christian belief structure will rebel against the logical problems they see. This will influence their entire view of the universe. They will also be the type that then prefers to not believe in any type of human phenomena (religious or paranormal) that contradicts their preferred logical and materialistic view of things. For example, I think atheism is extra high in people of northern European ancestry because of a Christian tradition and a preference towards left-brained thinking.

I think other groups like Africans, Native Americans are more in touch with their right-brain and feel spirits and such things as natural parts of the environment.

I personally am left-brained, and once an atheist. My 'conversion' to the spiritual came from my logical analysis of many types of paranormal phenomena that convinced me that non-physical entities exist beyond reasonable doubt and need to be incorporated into my world-view.

I also agree with your point that the traditional logical arguments will never settle the issue. We need real-world evidence or direct experience.

The "left brain vs. right brain" thing is a myth, in terms of personality. It's on the same level of phrenology and newspaper horoscopes. Personality doesn't work like that, and I say that as a left-hand dominant person.

You're also promoting a form of the "noble savage" stereotype that is racist, with your ideas about cold intellectual Northern Europeans and "earthy" spiritually focused darker-skinned people. Atheism and irreligion are higher in Northern Europe for cultural reasons. The Germanic peoples have always had a bit of a rebellious spirit (same for the Celts, going back to their fighting with the Romans in the British Isles) and they weren't converted to Christianity until later, compared to other European peoples. Even when they did convent, it was often to heretical forms of Christianity such as Arianism. Plus, they are primarily mainline Protestants, which doesn't tend to have as much of a cultural and familial hold as religions like Catholicism and Orthodoxy do. Christianity was in Africa long before it reached the northern tribes and African Christians are very fervent and conservative They were still worshiping the Germanic, Celtic and Slavic deities until recently. In the country, the old animist folkways are still prevalent.

 

[psychoslice]

I personally don't believe in anything, especially a god, it only causes confusion and robes us of living a good life, we just don't need all that rubbish.

 

[Deeje]

1 Corinthians 2:11-16:
11 For who among men knows the things of a man except the man’s spirit within him? So, too, no one has come to know the things of God except the spirit of God. 12 Now we received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit that is from God, so that we might know the things that have been kindly given us by God. 13 These things we also speak, not with words taught by human wisdom, but with those taught by the spirit, as we explain spiritual matters with spiritual words.
14 But a physical man does not accept the things of the spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; and he cannot get to know them, because they are examined spiritually. 15 However, the spiritual man examines all things, but he himself is not examined by any man. 16 For “who has come to know the mind of Jehovah, so that he may instruct him?” But we do have the mind of Christ."

I believe that the apostle Paul identifies what make one person "spiritual" and another "physical".

I believe that the Creator allows humankind to reproduce and he is the one who determines and selects the "spiritual" ones among us. The Bible says he "draws" such ones to the knowledge he has provided to the world through the ministry of his son. (John 6:44)

To a "physical man" spiritual things are nonsense, but to a "spiritual man" physical things are of little consequence.
We each gravitate to that which resonates with the heart.
Spiritual people demand a reason for their existence and a purpose to their lives that a physical man does not seem to need.

 

[Rick O'Shez]

The "left brain vs. right brain" thing is a myth, in terms of personality. It's on the same level of phrenology and newspaper horoscopes. Personality doesn't work like that, and I say that as a left-hand dominant person.

I tend to agree. I think religious belief ( and lack of ) is much more to do with upbringing and cultural trends.

 

[George-ananda]

The "left brain vs. right brain" thing is a myth, in terms of personality. It's on the same level of phrenology and newspaper horoscopes. Personality doesn't work like that, and I say that as a left-hand dominant person.

No, I don't think it is a myth. I believe there is difference in the way groups evolved and it is reflected to some extent in the way they think and experience.

You're also promoting a form of the "noble savage" stereotype that is racist, with your ideas about cold intellectual Northern Europeans and "earthy" spiritually focused darker-skinned people.

There's the r-word again. I've gotten so I am more interested in objectively understanding the human race than I am in avoiding labels being given to me. If something I unemotionally and objectively believe is true, I am going to believe it.

Atheism and irreligion are higher in Northern Europe for cultural reasons. The Germanic peoples have always had a bit of a rebellious spirit (same for the Celts, going back to their fighting with the Romans in the British Isles) and they weren't converted to Christianity until later, compared to other European peoples. Even when they did convent, it was often to heretical forms of Christianity such as Arianism. Plus, they are primarily mainline Protestants, which doesn't tend to have as much of a cultural and familial hold as religions like Catholicism and Orthodoxy do. Christianity was in Africa long before it reached the northern tribes and African Christians are very fervent and conservative They were still worshiping the Germanic, Celtic and Slavic deities until recently. In the country, the old animist folkways are still prevalent.

I happen to believe the most accurate understanding in the OP question involves both heredity (left-brain vs right-brain dominance) and culture. Now the left and right brain terminology may be imperfect terms but I believe differences in thinking and experiencing the world have some genetic basis and that does have something to do with the patterns of atheism and spiritual beliefs around the globe.

 

[RandomFlashbacks]

I was brought up with a great belief in God.
Becoming an adult I choose to stray from the spiritual realm.
Although I'm both analytical and creative; a sequence of paranormal experiences forced me to choose and believe in a greater force.
Some call this energy, God, Love, The universe, The light and or a Diety.
It's all an individual journey, I honestly don't believe there is a right or wrong it's how you choose to live your life for the betterment of the human race.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

No, I don't think it is a myth. I believe there is difference in the way groups evolved and it is reflected to some extent in the way they think and experience.

There's the r-word again. I've gotten so I am more interested in objectively understanding the human race than I am in avoiding labels being given to me. If something I unemotionally and objectively believe is true, I am going to believe it.

I don't give a toss what you want to believe, but scientific racism or "human biodiversity" or whatever rosy name you want to give it is still pseudo-scientific nonsense. Beliefs and facts aren't the same things.

I happen to believe the most accurate understanding in the OP question involves both heredity (left-brain vs right-brain dominance) and culture. Now the left and right brain terminology may be imperfect terms but I believe differences in thinking and experiencing the world have some genetic basis and that does have something to do with the patterns of atheism and spiritual beliefs around the globe.

You keep trying to shield yourself with the "I believe" declarations as if that's going to protect you from having to present evidence, but it doesn't work that way. Either there's scientific evidence for it, or there isn't. Which is it?

 

[George-ananda]

I don't give a toss what you want to believe, but scientific racism or "human biodiversity" or whatever rosy name you want to give it is still pseudo-scientific nonsense. Beliefs and facts aren't the same things.


You keep trying to shield yourself with the "I believe" declarations as if that's going to protect you from having to present evidence, but it doesn't work that way. Either there's scientific evidence for it, or there isn't. Which is it?

There isn't conclusive evidence that all will accept for either side. Why are you thinking the burden of proof is on my side. There is no burden of proof for either side. We each collect all the data, evidence, observations and argumentations and from our own opinion on any controversial issue. I was given my opinion to the OP question that was suggesting something may be inherently different that leads to 'belief and nonbelief' in people.

 

[russ0692]

There isn't conclusive evidence that all will accept for either side. Why are you thinking the burden of proof is on my side. There is no burden of proof for either side. We each collect all the data, evidence, observations and argumentations and from our own opinion on any controversial issue. I was given my opinion to the OP question that was suggesting something may be inherently different that leads to 'belief and nonbelief' in people.

I started this thread a couple days ago with the hope that I could get opinions from across the spectrum of belief. There have been some interesting and illuminating thoughts brought forth. Obviously I can't speak for everyone, but for myself, I didn't intend to place a burden of proof on anyone. It was an intended exploration and not a litmus test.

Here's a thought I've had. It's not an attempt at explaining our differences but might be another way of looking at things.
Have you ever heard of mirror neurons? (If not, I'd suggest learning a bit about them. It's a fascinating topic.)
In short, when you perform an action, such as moving your arm, you can observe a pattern of neurons firing in your brain which starts the cascade of events that end with your arm moving.
The interesting thing is that, whenever I watch you move your arm, a subset of those same neurons fire in my brain. It's part of the reason that when we see somebody else bleeding we experience a visceral reaction.

After that long winded preamble here's the thought.
A determinist such as myself will look at this and think, "This is a survival method of the brain modeling another mind in order to predict what to expect next."
Somebody with a disposition towards spirituality will look at the exact same thing and think, "We are all connected and being separate entities is merely an illusion."

I still can't tell you what causes the difference in outlook and this obviously doesn't address anything about a belief in God.

Feel free to swat that around any way you want. I bring it up solely to have it critiqued.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

There isn't conclusive evidence that all will accept for either side. Why are you thinking the burden of proof is on my side. There is no burden of proof for either side. We each collect all the data, evidence, observations and argumentations and from our own opinion on any controversial issue. I was given my opinion to the OP question that was suggesting something may be inherently different that leads to 'belief and nonbelief' in people.

You made an assertion, so it's up to you to back it up.

 

[George-ananda]

You made an assertion, so it's up to you to back it up.

Your position that people evolved identically without subtle differences is also an assertion. As I said: There isn't conclusive evidence that all will accept for either side

 

[arthra]

Let me state the question and then try to frame it a bit.
“Why are some people naturally predisposed to belief in a God while others aren’t?” For reference, I’m an atheist as it pertains to belief in a traditional god and am agnostic regarding whether there is any ultimate objective “point” to existence.

I think we have to appreciate that all of us are advancing through stages... Some of us start with acceptance and later investigate more for ourselves... also the "god" of some maybe later discarded in favor of a deeper understanding...so it all depends where we are and how we proceed.

Independent investigation of reality or truth is also an important principle:

"God has not intended man to imitate blindly his fathers and ancestors. He has endowed him with mind, or the faculty of reasoning, by the exercise of which he is to investigate and discover the truth, and that which he finds real and true he must accept. He must not be an imitator or blind follower of any soul. He must not rely implicitly upon the opinion of any man without investigation; nay, each soul must seek intelligently and independently, arriving at a real conclusion and bound only by that reality. The greatest cause of bereavement and disheartening in the world of humanity is ignorance based upon blind imitation. It is due to this that wars and battles prevail; from this cause hatred and animosity arise continually among mankind."

~ Abdu'l-Baha, The Promulgation of Universal Peace, p. 291

 

[Guy Threepwood]

I hope that this is a good place to get some ideas on a question that has puzzled me for some time.

Let me state the question and then try to frame it a bit.
“Why are some people naturally predisposed to belief in a God while others aren’t?” For reference, I’m an atheist as it pertains to belief in a traditional god and am agnostic regarding whether there is any ultimate objective “point” to existence.

I don’t think that belief in a God or lack thereof has anything to do with intelligence. I know for a fact that there are people from both sides of the fence that are much smarter than I am. To me it feels more like being either left or right handed. I couldn't choose to change my mind on this.

It's also not from a lack of information. The arguments for and against have been beat to death. I'm pretty sure I'm not going to be presented with some irrefutable fact that will cause the proverbial scales to fall from my eyes. The opposite seems to be true for theists among us.

So, any thoughts would be appreciated.

It's a good question, and likewise, I don't think it's about intelligence. I know and love many very intelligent people who are of the opposite opinion. But as someone who was raised with strict atheist beliefs, I think it's more nurture than nature. Ultimately our own nurture. By necessity, I think this is something we all have to figure out for ourselves, or it doesn't mean anything.

In the larger perspective, the vast majority of free thinking humanity has always concluded a higher power, I think because we come predisposed only with a sense of curiosity about the world around us which, all thing being even, will lead most people to this same conclusion. Atheism, in contrast, has gained most ground where, as in the USSR or North Korea, those conclusions are directly oppressed for one reason or another.