Belief in a Personal God is very bad news

[rrobs]

I have little faith in humanity to do the right thing. We repeat the same mistakes over and over and over. If most people were actually "pretty decent folks" the Hitler's and Stalin's of the world would never rise to power in the first place because most people would ignore them and their murderous ideas. We have a man in the White House right now for example that calls white supremacists decent folk. What it all boils down to is that humans are just clever animals that act on their self interests just like any other animal. The only paradise humanity can possibly have we have to make for ourselves. To do that we first need to understand and account for our human failings and instincts. Any god concept that doesn't understand the human animal and expects us to act counter to our inborn instincts must be false. The god that made us should understand us, should know what humanity is and isn't capable of, yet the Biblical god doesn't seem to get us at all. That is one of the reasons I don't believe the Biblical god is real.

Why would a god care if we worship it? Why would a god care how we live our lives? Why would a god care anymore about humans than cockroaches? Doesn't it seem arrogant to believe that there is a god and it is obsessed with us and what we're up to? Doesn't it seem arrogant to believe that god is going to cater to YOU because YOU believed a certain thing and give YOU an eternal paradise? That doesn't seem like a selfish belief to you? Be honest.

I think you misunderstood most of what I said. I never suggested that Hitler is among those I'd consider decent folks. On the other hand, I like to say that if I walked in somebody else's shoes I would be right where they are. I'm obviously happy I didn't experience whatever Hitler experienced to become what he became. I have no idea what he experienced as he went through life. But God does. That's why God is the judge and I'm not.

As far as the questions in your second paragraph, I would suggest you rephrase them by substituting the words "good father" for God. For example, why would your dad care for you any more than a cockroach? The answer is real simple; your dad loved you. At least hopefully he did. I understand that some fathers weren't the best, but I'm talking about the proverbial bell curve. Most dads love their children. In any case, God most certainly does.

Why did your dad want to you to obey him when he told you not to put your hand in the fire?
He had your best interest at heart and so does God. God knows that this life will be best fo you if you worship Him as opposed to money for example.

I'm not sure why you thing God caters to anyone. Would you call it catering when your dad told you about fire? I wouldn't. Again it all comes down to love.

John 3:16,

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
​

What the heck is wrong with that? You may not believe it, but simply taking it for what it says, I fail to see anything that resembles selfishness. Nor would I see it as indicating anything that resembles obsession.

I'm not sure where you get your ideas, but I've studied the book for most of my life, and it really doesn't accord with anything you seem to think about it.

 

[JustWondering]

I think you misunderstood most of what I said. I never suggested that Hitler is among those I'd consider decent folks.

??? I never said that you said Hitler was a decent guy. You said that most people are decent folks and I gave my reason for why I think most people are not decent folks. You misunderstood what I said it appears.

As far as the questions in your second paragraph, I would suggest you rephrase them by substituting the words "good father" for God. For example, why would your dad care for you any more than a cockroach? The answer is real simple; your dad loved you. At least hopefully he did. I understand that some fathers weren't the best, but I'm talking about the proverbial bell curve. Most dads love their children. In any case, God most certainly does.

I would agree that HUMAN parents should and do love their HUMAN children. The problem with your analogy is that god isn't human. A creator god that created earth and all life on it would be a father to ALL life. That god would be the father to cockroaches as well, yes? So, wouldn't a fair and unbiased parent love ALL its children equally? Wouldn't that god love cockroaches as much as humans or any other species? Do you think cockroaches go to cockroach heaven when they die?

 

[rrobs]

??? I never said that you said Hitler was a decent guy. You said that most people are decent folks and I gave my reason for why I think most people are not decent folks. You misunderstood what I said it appears.

Not impossible. I guess I did.

I would agree that HUMAN parents should and do love their HUMAN children. The problem with your analogy is that god isn't human. A creator god that created earth and all life on it would be a father to ALL life. That god would be the father to cockroaches as well, yes? So, wouldn't a fair and unbiased parent love ALL its children equally? Wouldn't that god love cockroaches as much as humans or any other species? Do you think cockroaches go to cockroach heaven when they die?

According to Genesis, people were the only thing God created in His image, which is spirit. All living things have a body and soul, including cockroaches, (soul is basically nothing more than life force) but people were originally created with body, soul, and spirit. It was the spirit that enabled Adam and Eve to have companionship with God. Kinda like ya gotta have spirit to know one. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God, they lost that spirit. God had warned them that that's what would happen, but He did give them free will, so it was their choice. God wasn't interested in having companionship with robots.

In any case, when they had free access to God everything went according to God's original plan. There were no Hitlers. They had a pretty good life. But when they lost the spirit, they floundered around, not really knowing what was good for them and what wasn't. That's why things are less than ideal today. Cockroaches are probably a result of their new, less than ideal life. I don't know that for sure since I'm not aware of anything at all in the scriptures that even mentions cockroaches. I'm just surmising.

The main thing Jesus accomplished was to make it available to get spirit again. It is that spirit that is the source of eternal life. Every soul eventually dies. I could give you simple verses that would back everything I say. I'm not making anything up. It's just what the book says. Of course I understand if you don't believe the Bible, but at least you should know what it is that you don't believe.

For sure, the scriptures never say that every living thing was God's children. It says that those with the spirit are His children. Unfortunately, those without spirit are not called God's children. But it's easy enough to get spirit. Romans 10:9 says that anyone who confesses Jesus as Lord and believes that God raised him from the dead are saved, i.e. they become what God originally meant for people to be, body, soul, and spirit.

Take care...

 

[Valjean]

When John Lennon wrote "I am he as you are he as you are me and we are all together" in I Am The Walrus, whether he realized it or not, he was describing Advaita and the singleness and unity of everything. The Beatles at the time were influenced by eastern philosophy so it's possible he wrote that deliberately.

LOL -- I think you're confusing John with George. Didn't John also sing:
"...I don't believe in Mantra
I don't believe in Gita
I don't believe in Yoga..."

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I believe all you need to know is in the Bible. Looking for knowledge within your self doesn't work very well.

Hmmm....

It's kind of curious then, that when western civilization kicked out theocratic elements and replaced it with secular humanism, life improved exponentially ....

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

It is a huge mistake to think that only those who accept Jesus will get into paradise. There are certain advantages to accepting Jesus which I will only get into if you are interested. In any case, the scriptures are clear that when God judges people He will do it based on what is in their hearts and not necessarily their actions.

Then christianity is pointless and unnecessary. And by extension, all religions.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I don't see it that way at all. Your god demands you to act and be a certain way otherwise you will suffer eternal damnation. That is blackmail.

Yup, like a maffia boss entering your shop asking you for protection money.
And if you refuse, it turns out that he's the one you need protection from.

 

[Jainarayan]

LOL -- I think you're confusing John with George. Didn't John also sing:
"...I don't believe in Mantra
I don't believe in Gita
I don't believe in Yoga..."

Yes, he did. That was on his solo album. It was a very dark and angry album. But John did write I am The Walrus one weekend on an acid trip.

 

[rrobs]

Then christianity is pointless and unnecessary. And by extension, all religions.

Not at all. I said there are advantages to accepting Christ that go beyond being judged at the end. I just didn't enumerate them. It's a bit involved and would in the end mean nothing to somebody without a sincere desire to learn the scriptures.

Heb 4:2,

For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard [it].
​

I think that's pretty straight forward. It doesn't really need any more "interpretation" than the daily newspaper. Just read what's written.

Take care...

 

[Muffled]

The answer is no one cannot be free of God and benefit from his intelligence and wisdom.

I believe there is no grounding for that answer. I am sure it happens all the time with atheists. They don't know why they have that benefit but it is there anyway.

 

[Muffled]

There is no harm in loving your enemies but one must fight them at the same time.

I believe there is no requirement to fight ones enemies.

Heb 13:6 So we can confidently say, “The Lord is my helper; I will not fear; what can man do to me?”

 

[Muffled]

Where? How is the Bible any different from any other book of historical folklore?

I believe the Bible is inspired by God. Historical folklore does not have that.

 

[rrobs]

Hmmm....

It's kind of curious then, that when western civilization kicked out theocratic elements and replaced it with secular humanism, life improved exponentially ....

I believe there is no grounding for that answer. I am sure it happens all the time with atheists. They don't know why they have that benefit but it is there anyway.

Maybe something like gravity for example? That's a pretty good thing God made that is beneficial to everybody.

 

[Shantanu]

I believe there is no grounding for that answer. I am sure it happens all the time with atheists. They don't know why they have that benefit but it is there anyway.

To be perfectly frank once one has truly experienced God there is no alternative but to stick with him through all ones trials and tribulations.

 

[Shantanu]

I believe there is no requirement to fight ones enemies.

Heb 13:6 So we can confidently say, “The Lord is my helper; I will not fear; what can man do to me?”

The Lord is my helper I will not fear and I must keep my correspondence up to date dealing with State organised persecution with the full force of truth.

 

[JustWondering]

Not impossible. I guess I did.


According to Genesis, people were the only thing God created in His image, which is spirit. All living things have a body and soul, including cockroaches, (soul is basically nothing more than life force) but people were originally created with body, soul, and spirit. It was the spirit that enabled Adam and Eve to have companionship with God. Kinda like ya gotta have spirit to know one. When Adam and Eve disobeyed God, they lost that spirit. God had warned them that that's what would happen, but He did give them free will, so it was their choice. God wasn't interested in having companionship with robots.

In any case, when they had free access to God everything went according to God's original plan. There were no Hitlers. They had a pretty good life. But when they lost the spirit, they floundered around, not really knowing what was good for them and what wasn't. That's why things are less than ideal today. Cockroaches are probably a result of their new, less than ideal life. I don't know that for sure since I'm not aware of anything at all in the scriptures that even mentions cockroaches. I'm just surmising.

The main thing Jesus accomplished was to make it available to get spirit again. It is that spirit that is the source of eternal life. Every soul eventually dies. I could give you simple verses that would back everything I say. I'm not making anything up. It's just what the book says. Of course I understand if you don't believe the Bible, but at least you should know what it is that you don't believe.

For sure, the scriptures never say that every living thing was God's children. It says that those with the spirit are His children. Unfortunately, those without spirit are not called God's children. But it's easy enough to get spirit. Romans 10:9 says that anyone who confesses Jesus as Lord and believes that God raised him from the dead are saved, i.e. they become what God originally meant for people to be, body, soul, and spirit.

Take care...

I don't remember Adam and Eve losing spirit after disobeying god, you'll have to tell me where I can find that in the bible. In fact, if I remember correctly, the OT doesn't deal much if at all with spirits, souls and afterlives. The new testament does but that was written by authors who were obviously influenced by the beliefs of other religions that did make claims about souls and afterlives. So, to keep up with the competition they had to have an afterlife to draw followers.

Second, a holy book written by humans proclaiming how awesome and special humans are, what a coincidence! This is what I meant by understanding human nature and taking it into account when developing an ideology to live by. Humans by their nature are selfish animals, like any other animal. Be honest, how many Christians would there be today if there was no promise of an afterlife? Even with the promise of an afterlife, most of the "Christians" not all, but most that I've personally met don't follow Christ's teachings. Do I blame them for that? Not really. The bible makes unrealistic demands of people and it is horribly outdated.

 

[Valjean]

I believe the Bible is inspired by God. Historical folklore does not have that.

Understood, but religious folk of every stripe say the same thing. They can't all be right.
I believe religious scripture is indistinguishable from folklore, but for the assertion that it's true. Unless objective evidence for its veracity be produced, it cannot reasonably be claimed to be in a different class.

 

[rrobs]

I don't remember Adam and Eve losing spirit after disobeying god, you'll have to tell me where I can find that in the bible. In fact, if I remember correctly, the OT doesn't deal much if at all with spirits, souls and afterlives. The new testament does but that was written by authors who were obviously influenced by the beliefs of other religions that did make claims about souls and afterlives. So, to keep up with the competition they had to have an afterlife to draw followers.

Second, a holy book written by humans proclaiming how awesome and special humans are, what a coincidence! This is what I meant by understanding human nature and taking it into account when developing an ideology to live by. Humans by their nature are selfish animals, like any other animal. Be honest, how many Christians would there be today if there was no promise of an afterlife? Even with the promise of an afterlife, most of the "Christians" not all, but most that I've personally met don't follow Christ's teachings. Do I blame them for that? Not really. The bible makes unrealistic demands of people and it is horribly outdated.

If I asked you a complex question about I subject that I told you beforehand I think is BS, would you be inclined to answer?