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Belief in demons
- Thread starter arthra
- Start date
doppelganger
Through the Looking Glass
I think demons come in two categories:
(1) Symbolic/identity-related: Like any other "spirit" (including the "Holy Spirit" as it is sometimes used), demons are symbols or ideas that attach to a person's identity in their memories, forms and habits. What distinguishes them as "demons" is that they are regarded as negative, destructive or divisive. In that sense, even one person's "God" can exhibit a lot of what can appear to someone else to be "demons." These sorts of demons are the ones an exorcist might have the tools to remove, though the type of exorcists that use the methods of the tested and peer-reviewed discipline of psychology are more likely to consistently get results than the "word of power" kind.
(2) Psychiatric: Demons are also physical neurology or brain chemistry gone awry. Exorcists should be careful to distinguish when they are dealing with these sorts of demons as "traditional" exorcism methods can make them much worse. The magicians who use the tested and peer-reviewed methods of psychiatry and neurology have a much better toolkit for dealing with these sorts of demons.
(1) Symbolic/identity-related: Like any other "spirit" (including the "Holy Spirit" as it is sometimes used), demons are symbols or ideas that attach to a person's identity in their memories, forms and habits. What distinguishes them as "demons" is that they are regarded as negative, destructive or divisive. In that sense, even one person's "God" can exhibit a lot of what can appear to someone else to be "demons." These sorts of demons are the ones an exorcist might have the tools to remove, though the type of exorcists that use the methods of the tested and peer-reviewed discipline of psychology are more likely to consistently get results than the "word of power" kind.
(2) Psychiatric: Demons are also physical neurology or brain chemistry gone awry. Exorcists should be careful to distinguish when they are dealing with these sorts of demons as "traditional" exorcism methods can make them much worse. The magicians who use the tested and peer-reviewed methods of psychiatry and neurology have a much better toolkit for dealing with these sorts of demons.
ReiðrÅska
Voice deeper than Thor's
I believe in malicious spiritual entities. If spiritual beings exist, some of them are pretty certain to be nasty.
I'd like to say that as I was typing this, I looked out the window to see a massive red and black cloud had formed over the field I live by. It's just the sun making it look odd, but I felt like I was playing Oblivion for a second. Damn those Mehrunes Dagon-worshipping Mythic Dawn cultists and their Oblivion gates, always making Tamriel scary! Admit it, you hate it when you're strolling through the forest and the sky turns red, as well.
I'd like to say that as I was typing this, I looked out the window to see a massive red and black cloud had formed over the field I live by. It's just the sun making it look odd, but I felt like I was playing Oblivion for a second. Damn those Mehrunes Dagon-worshipping Mythic Dawn cultists and their Oblivion gates, always making Tamriel scary! Admit it, you hate it when you're strolling through the forest and the sky turns red, as well.
doppelganger
Through the Looking Glass
Demons represent something that is real. Does that mean "demons are real"? I'm not sure how I would answer your poll.
doppelganger
Through the Looking Glass
But I'm fairly confident that what they represent is not what you are referring to in asking "are they 'real'?"
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
To my thinking, what are considered demons and demonics influences are the product of pre-existing, deep-seated beliefs in the probability of such phenomena existing. In effect, the believer unconsciously creates that which they then consciously perceive. It is a self-sustaining circle and as long as one is within that sphere of influence I would advise that they tred very lightly indeed, as they live in a hostile universe, that is out to get them.
In essence, I agree with what I think Dopp is saying. It's a case of mistaken identity.
In essence, I agree with what I think Dopp is saying. It's a case of mistaken identity.
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Scarlett Wampus
psychonaut
YmirGF I agree only I think the phenomena of demons is more complicated.
Obviously having a framework for understanding what demonic-like experiences are and why we have them is useful. I think the most well developed frameworks offer explanatory power that do not require the violation of scientific knowledge or deny the merit of creative imagination. If I converse with spirits hiding among the trees outside my house it would be naive to insist the spirits are tangibly real and yet naive to dismiss what they say as having no significance.
As it is I tend to explain such things in terms of notions like the unconscious. However, the very nature of such things is that they are mysterious, unpredictable and always a step beyond comprehension.
RobGelber
RobGelber
Malicious spiritual entities. I think that's my favorite definition of demons so far. Thanks Reioroeska! I also agree with Doppelganger's point that one person's demon can be another person's angel. The label depends whether the spiritual entity is feeling malicious toward you or not!
But here's another complication with whether demons are real or not. What if a "demon" changes its mind and decides to be nice to you? Is it still a demon? Unless we assume a universe like the Christian universe where there are entities that have permanently made up their minds to be either good or evil, the labels "demon" or "angel" don't work so well. Saying demons and angels exist is a bit like saying the universe is populated with good guys and bad guys. Sure some people will be nice to you and some people won't, but it's hard to know who is who and who will be mean and who will be nice may change over time.
So I don't think demons exist because I don't like to pigeonhole spiritual entities. I might convince a "demon" to be nice. Then it wouldn't be a demon any more.
But here's another complication with whether demons are real or not. What if a "demon" changes its mind and decides to be nice to you? Is it still a demon? Unless we assume a universe like the Christian universe where there are entities that have permanently made up their minds to be either good or evil, the labels "demon" or "angel" don't work so well. Saying demons and angels exist is a bit like saying the universe is populated with good guys and bad guys. Sure some people will be nice to you and some people won't, but it's hard to know who is who and who will be mean and who will be nice may change over time.
So I don't think demons exist because I don't like to pigeonhole spiritual entities. I might convince a "demon" to be nice. Then it wouldn't be a demon any more.
Scarlett Wampus
psychonaut
Runewolf1973
Materialism/Animism
I have seen a demon before. At least it was only what I could describe as a demon. Have any of you ever experienced sleep paralysis before? You are lying in bed with you're eyes wide awake, but you can not move you're body at all. That's when it happened. I was lying in my bed and noticing the dim light coming through the basement window, then I blink and next thing I know my whole bed including my whole body is shaking violently. There was a smallish bright red human-like "thing" right on top of of me holding me down and shaking me. Holy crap!! I actually tried fighting it off, but it was like it was just holding me down. It only stopped after I said a couple words to the regards of "In the name of Jesus Christ! Go away!" I don't even believe in God. It went away though. That was the first really creepy experience I've ever had with anything paranormal or unexplained. I have had sleep paralysis before, but this was different. My wife has a kind of a sixth sense you can say. She literally sees spirits and ghosts and can communicate to them. I've always been quite skeptical though. I always tried to get her to talk to the spirits she sees so I could ask questions to see if they were real or not. I've come to the conclusion that spirits ARE real. Not everyone believes it, or knows it, but it makes no difference. I asked her about the demon-like "thing" that I had jump on top of me. She said she's actually seen those creature before. They're not very powerful entities, but they do like to scare the living hell out of people. Not very many people actually get so "see" one first hand. They are kind of like manifestations of negative thought forms. They appear to those whose energy levels are low and are depressed or negative. At the time it happened to me, I was really depressed and I remember actually cursing at the devil and kind of "taunting" it you might say. Not a good idea to make fun of that which you don't know or understand. I don't actually believe in the Devil, or God, or demons, but I do believe that negative energies CAN manifest themselves in ways such as this. My wife has a name for those little red "demons" that both her and myself and a few other people have experienced, she calls them "Soul-Creepers". They are definitely creepy that is for sure! If you never have to experience one first hand, then consider yourself lucky. They're not nice. And no, I was not just dreaming all this up. But I can understand if you think I was just hallucinating or something. Not everyone "believes" and not everyone has the "sight".
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
If that is what you (and others) believe then I doubt there is any possibility that said believers will ever truly understand what they are witnessing. You definition creates barriers that your understanding cannot cross. To me, that is not cricket.
YmirGF
Bodhisattva in Recovery
Hiya Runewolf,
Actually I am a member of this little club, regardless, I still have rather startling differences in my point of view than those that are depicted in your post. I will suggest that the observer of such phenomena has far more control "over" said phenomena than they will likely suspect. It is nothing personal, more of a long held policy of mine, that types of phenomena, such as your "soul-creepers", are not concepts that I can support. It would take a fairly detailed discussion on the nature of beliefs and the effects of said beliefs on the "user" to explain precisely why that is.
Runewolf1973
Materialism/Animism
I have a hard time believing in anything that is "supernatural". In fact, I don't believe in the supernatural. Things such as demons or angels to me are not exactly as they seem. It is a matter of how we perceive them. To me these things are manifestations or manipulations of energy and thought. Does it really matter if they are real or not? To the people who have experienced them, they ARE real and caused a REAL reaction or emotion. Whatever it is or was caused a genuine response or feeling of fear. Maybe the "thing" was just concocted by the person's own thoughts, but it caused a real emotion or sensation. Whatever it was, real or not, generated a REAL form or expression of energy....fear. The way I see it, our own thoughts and energy can be manipulated to make something that is not real, into something that is VERY REAL at least to the person experiencing it. Perhaps our own perception of what "reality" is is flawed. We see a stone lying on the ground and perceive it to be "still" or "inanimate". In reality, that stone is vibrating with energy and the molecules within it are constantly in motion. We only "see" it as a stone. I see it as energy. All things are animate and real forms of energy. Thought is merely energy changing form. We manipulate energy. How can we manipulate energy that does not exist, or feel or experience or be affected by energy which is not actually there? We create our own demons. That's just my opinion though.
Mankind's own manipulation of energy created evil. Before that evil (demons) did not exist. Now it DOES exist and it is very real. It affects all of us in ways we don't even realize or wish to accept.
Mankind's own manipulation of energy created evil. Before that evil (demons) did not exist. Now it DOES exist and it is very real. It affects all of us in ways we don't even realize or wish to accept.
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Weddy
Forgiven
How terrifying!!! I would think you'd believe in God after it went away.
I am a little curious though. Why did you call out the name of Jesus if you don't believe in Him? I'm very interested in your answer.
BruceDLimber
Well-Known Member
Greetings!
We Baha'is state that God is One, Supreme, and has no equal or rival! There is thus no "devil" out there competing with Him!
And "satan" simply refers to our own lower (animal) nature when we give it control instead of our higher (spiritual) nature.
Simple as that!
Peace,
Bruce
We Baha'is state that God is One, Supreme, and has no equal or rival! There is thus no "devil" out there competing with Him!
And "satan" simply refers to our own lower (animal) nature when we give it control instead of our higher (spiritual) nature.
Simple as that!
Peace,
Bruce