Belief in God will always require ‘some’ faith

[Trailblazer]

Only if those messengers are really of God.

Obviously that's true.

There are so many charletans, that most messengers of God are disbelieved.

True, that is one big reason the real Messengers are disbelieved.

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't agree that God doesn't speak directly to people.
Of course we can doubt regardless and some faith is required.

That depends upon what you mean by God speaking directly to people.
I believe that God can communicate to people in same way but not in the same way as God communicates to the Messengers and Prophets.

 

[Trailblazer]

Sure. BYW, I am also a messenger of Superman. I am sure you will accept that as sufficient evidence of Superman.

Is that really so easy?

Ciao

- viole

No, I do not accept that as evidence of Superman.

 

[viole]

No, I do not accept that as evidence of Superman.

Why not? It is the same evidence that your messengers provide.

Ciao

- viole

 

[The Hammer]

Does God speaking to us in dreams count as evidence of His existence?

The Gods talk to me through dreams and other methods I don't see why not.

 

[Exaltist Ethan]

Why not? It is the same evidence that your messengers provide.

If you knew about the twelve Imam's, Shi'ih Islam, and how the Babi led towards the creation of Baha'u'llah's divinity you probably wouldn't be saying exactly that. I'm not saying Trailblazer is fully correct either but there's more prophecy of his Manifestations than say, Superman. Come on now, don't troll the believers.

 

[Trailblazer]

I see all people as both divine and human. Knowing this I try my best to understand everybody's view point; I see everyone and every thing having some worth and value; and everybody is important. By knowing people I know parts of God. This is how I don't have faith in God, but I know God instead.

That is a very valid point because all humans have both a human nature and a spiritual nature so every human has the potential to reflect the attributes of God.

“In man there are two natures; his spiritual or higher nature and his material or lower nature. In one he approaches God, in the other he lives for the world alone. Signs of both these natures are to be found in men. In his material aspect he expresses untruth, cruelty and injustice; all these are the outcome of his lower nature. The attributes of his Divine nature are shown forth in love, mercy, kindness, truth and justice, one and all being expressions of his higher nature. Every good habit, every noble quality belongs to man’s spiritual nature, whereas all his imperfections and sinful actions are born of his material nature. If a man’s Divine nature dominates his human nature, we have a saint.” Paris Talks, p. 60

To read more: THE TWO NATURES IN MAN

By knowing people we can know God, for in man are potentially revealed all the attributes and names of God to a degree that no other created being hath excelled or surpassed.

“Whatever is in the heavens and whatever is on the earth is a direct evidence of the revelation within it of the attributes and names of God, inasmuch as within every atom are enshrined the signs that bear eloquent testimony to the revelation of that Most Great Light. Methinks, but for the potency of that revelation, no being could ever exist. How resplendent the luminaries of knowledge that shine in an atom, and how vast the oceans of wisdom that surge within a drop! To a supreme degree is this true of man, who, among all created things, hath been invested with the robe of such gifts, and hath been singled out for the glory of such distinction. For in him are potentially revealed all the attributes and names of God to a degree that no other created being hath excelled or surpassed. All these names and attributes are applicable to him. Even as He hath said: “Man is My mystery, and I am his mystery.” Manifold are the verses that have been repeatedly revealed in all the Heavenly Books and the Holy Scriptures, expressive of this most subtle and lofty theme.”
Gleanings From the Writings of Bahá’u’lláh, pp. 177-178

 

[viole]

If you knew about the twelve Imam's, Shi'ih Islam, and how the Babi led towards the creation of Baha'u'llah's divinity you probably wouldn't be saying exactly that. I'm not saying Trailblazer is fully correct either but there's more prophecy of his Manifestations than say, Superman. Come on now, don't troll the believers.

Of course I would say exactly that. Your claims about the twelve Imam and how the Babi led toward the creation of baha'u'llla or whatever are totally ridiculous.
What on earth do you mean by that?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Trailblazer]

Which is you since the only God that exists is in your mind.

Got any proof of that assertion? If not it is a bald assertion.

 

[Ella S.]

As I said in the OP, I will contend that with good enough evidence we can know in our own minds that God exists even though we can never prove it to anyone else.

What is considered 'good evidence' is highly subjective as what is good to one person is not good to another. For a Christian the Bible is good evidence but it is not evidence to another religious believer. To a Baha'i the Revelation of Baha'u'llah is good evidence but it is not evidence to anyone else. Do you understand the problem? It is all in how we perceive the evidence.

Evidence is objective, not subjective. It's subject to a number of formalized methods of inference.

That's the whole point of formal logic and statistics.

"Good evidence" would therefore need to first be actual evidence. Anecdotal evidence, in this case, is not really a cogent form of evidence. Anecdotes are mainly used to disprove superlatives (such as showing a black swan to someone who claims that all swans are white), and even then only under certain circumstances.

There isn't a problem with perception here. There's only a problem with ignorance of proper epistemic methodology.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Belief in God will always require ‘some’ faith because we can never see God or hear God speak to us directly.

However, it is my contention that the better the evidence we have of God’s existence the less faith we will require in order to believe in God. In other words, there is an inverse correlation between good evidence and faith required to believe in God.

I will even contend that with good enough evidence we can know in our own minds that God exists even though we can never prove it to anyone else.

Maybe we can offer that using the scientific method, it may be possible to prove the claim of a Messenger.

I have read books that offer Prophecy can be treated in this manner. There is a book available written by two Christian scientists, that was peered reveiwed about Christ. Apparently it was accepted as plausible.

From memory, for Christ to fulfill 10 prophecies from the Torah, it calculated as 10 to the power of 18 that it was not a coincidence and apparently there are 300 prophecies available.

When the same Method is used for Baha'u'llah, it offers that it is 10 to the power of 80 that is was not just a coincidence and there are around 600 prophecies available.

Anyway, a thought.

Regards Tony

 

[TransmutingSoul]

What evidence are you procuring? You have zero evidence that could be used to infer the existence of any god.

Ciao

- viole

We can use Prophecy.

Regards Tony

 

[Trailblazer]

Evidence is objective, not subjective. It's subject to a number of formalized methods of inference.

That's the whole point of formal logic and statistics.

"Good evidence" would therefore need to first be actual evidence. Anecdotal evidence, in this case, is not really a cogent form of evidence. Anecdotes are mainly used to disprove superlatives (such as showing a black swan to someone who claims that all swans are white), and even then only under certain circumstances.

There isn't a problem with perception here. There's only a problem with ignorance of proper epistemic methodology.

Good evidence is actual evidence and it is objective but objective evidence is interpreted subjectively.

I do not have my own definition of evidence. I go by the dictionary definitions.

Evidence: anything that helps to prove that something is or is not true: EVIDENCE | definition in the Cambridge English Dictionary

Evidence: the available body of facts or information indicating whether a belief or proposition is true or valid: https://www.google.com/search

Evidence is anything that you see, experience, read, or are told that causes you to believe that something is true or has really happened.
Objective evidence definition and meaning | Collins English Dictionary

What is subjective and objective evidence?

Subjective evidence is evidence that we cannot evaluate. In fact, we have two choices; to accept what somebody says or reject it. ... Objective evidence is evidence that we can examine and evaluate for ourselves.
Objective evidence - definition and meaning - Market ...

We can examine and evaluate the evidence for the Baha'i Faith for ourselves thus it is objective evidence. For example, we can examine and evaluate the evidence for Baha'u'llah for ourselves because there are actual facts surrounding the Person, the Life, and the Mission of Baha'u'llah.

 

[CG Didymus]

Maybe we can offer that using the scientific method, it may be possible to prove the claim of a Messenger.

I have read books that offer Prophecy can be treated in this manner. There is a book available written by two Christian scientists, that was peered reveiwed about Christ. Apparently it was accepted as plausible.

From memory, for Christ to fulfill 10 prophecies from the Torah, it calculated as 10 to the power of 18 that it was not a coincidence and apparently there are 300 prophecies available.

When the same Method is used for Baha'u'llah, it offers that it is 10 to the power of 80 that is was not just a coincidence and there are around 600 prophecies available.

Anyway, a thought.

Regards Tony

How many false prophecies or non-prophecies that are claimed to be fulfilled prophecies before the person claiming to be sent by God becomes a fraud and a false prophet? You know my usual example... How a gospel writer took just one verse, Isaiah 7:14, and made it into a prophecy about Jesus being born of a virgin. But Jesus didn't fulfill one other verse in Isaiah chapter 7. So, is that a legitimate prophecy, or a manufactured, cherry-picked prophecy? Christians did it and Baha'is do it too. 300 prophecies? 600 prophecies? Does it matter when most all of them are too vague to be meaningful? And only one false prophecy is enough to reject a prophet.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

How many false prophecies or non-prophecies that are claimed to be fulfilled prophecies before the person claiming to be sent by God becomes a fraud and a false prophet? You know my usual example... How a gospel writer took just one verse, Isaiah 7:14, and made it into a prophecy about Jesus being born of a virgin. But Jesus didn't fulfill one other verse in Isaiah chapter 7. So, is that a legitimate prophecy, or a manufactured, cherry-picked prophecy? Christians did it and Baha'is do it too. 300 prophecies? 600 prophecies? Does it matter when most all of them are too vague to be meaningful? And only one false prophecy is enough to reject a prophet.

Using the method I read about it does not matter, it is applicable to every person as it is a probability factor.

You use what is relevant, like born in Bethlehem, from memory the accepted probability was 1/100.000

Then born in Bethlehem to a Virgin.

Probability 1/10 I think they used, may have been 1/100

They used conservative probabilities.

May have to look the book up again and post the 10 prophecies used and the probability factors.

Regards Tony

 

[The Crimson Universe]

The Gods talk to me through dreams and other methods I don't see why not.

I had a dream of a hindu God once. It was beautiful.

 

[firedragon]

I have the only evidence that God provides, which I consider to be good evidence.

What is this evidence you speak of?

 

[Trailblazer]

What is this evidence you speak of?

Messengers of God.

 

[The Hammer]

Messengers of God.

That isn't evidence. The only evidence is truly found within.

 

[firedragon]

Messengers of God.

How do messengers of God be evidence for God? I mean what is your criteria to establish that they are messengers of God prior to establishing God exists? What are the criteria?