Belief versus knowledge

[Cockadoodledoo]

By the way...

Ezekiel 1:27
"And I saw as the colour of amber, as the appearance of fire round about within it, from the appearance of his loins even upward, and from the appearance of his loins even downward, I saw as it were the appearance of fire, and it had brightness round about"

Amber is where we get the word Electron.

Ezekiel was seeing Electrons as 'Eyes round about'.

God is teaching electromagnetism to us in a way that can be understood by anyone at any time in any language. Quite an accomplishment!

If I had read Ezekiel 1:27 by myself I would never have guessed the verse was about the electron!

 

[Willamena]

Let’s say That I write a book containing chapter after chapter of supposedly truth,
And then I ask you to believe it.
I ask you to believe it because, obviously, by yourself you can’t verify the truth.
Wouldn’t it have been better if I had took some other approach,
An approach whereby you didn’t have to rely on your powers of belief?
An approach whereby you had firsthand knowledge of the truth.

For example let’s say you’re an Eskimo in the Artic,
And I give you a book describing the properties of a magnet and claim it’s the truth.
A better approach might be to show you a magnet and some iron filings,
And demonstrate what a magnet can do.

So let’s take another example........the Bible versus a personal miracle.
(A personal miracle may for example be the constant vision of a cross in the sky witnessed by all humanity)
Whereas the Bible supposedly contains truth but can’t be verified & requires belief,
The cross in the sky gives all firsthand knowledge of the truth of God.

So I would say knowledge is superior to belief.
So why then are we not presented with knowledge in this way to verify God’s existence?
Why go to all the trouble of documenting ‘facts’ in the Bible if, at the end of the day, belief is required?

First, the Inuit people can read. They can even get on the Internet and read your post.

Second, "belief" is no power, it's just (investment in) the apparently true and correct parts of the world. We do need reason to believe, and the appearance of truth and correctness supply that reason. If the book appeared correct, it would be believed.

Third, being a practical person I too believe that demonstration is the superior method of learning. However, not everyone is the practical person, some learn very well from reading the instruction manual. Being a practical person, I also give weight to the observations of my senses. If a cross appeared in the sky it would be a marvel, but just that one observation isn't sufficient to supply a conclusion like "miracle of God." There would have to be a lot of background story behind that cross before such a conclusion could be reached.

 

[Etritonakin]

Let’s say That I write a book containing chapter after chapter of supposedly truth,
And then I ask you to believe it.
I ask you to believe it because, obviously, by yourself you can’t verify the truth.
Wouldn’t it have been better if I had took some other approach,
An approach whereby you didn’t have to rely on your powers of belief?
An approach whereby you had firsthand knowledge of the truth.

For example let’s say you’re an Eskimo in the Artic,
And I give you a book describing the properties of a magnet and claim it’s the truth.
A better approach might be to show you a magnet and some iron filings,
And demonstrate what a magnet can do.

So let’s take another example........the Bible versus a personal miracle.
(A personal miracle may for example be the constant vision of a cross in the sky witnessed by all humanity)
Whereas the Bible supposedly contains truth but can’t be verified & requires belief,
The cross in the sky gives all firsthand knowledge of the truth of God.

So I would say knowledge is superior to belief.
So why then are we not presented with knowledge in this way to verify God’s existence?
Why go to all the trouble of documenting ‘facts’ in the Bible if, at the end of the day, belief is required?

As that might relate to the bible and what is claimed therein, the bible is not meant to be believed by all now.

(Those in the bible who have believed in the God of the bible have done so after God did -or had done -extremely miraculous things initially. Evidences were the beginning of their faith.
Those who did not experience them can still prove that the basic ideas behind the commandments are the core of that which would cause the world to be a paradise of done by all -even if God did not exist, but those who have seen evidences -miraculous or prophetic -believe in his power to create the future much more easily who have not experienced them or studied prophecy diligently.)

For most... And according to the bible itself, the bible is to be evidence seen in hindsight -evidence that the very obvious God who has then worked much more directly with humans, made the earth a paradise, made some immortal, ended war and is preparing us to inherit all things -not just the earth -declared all things from the beginning. They will then not only know God exists, but was able to declare that all of this would come to pass from the beginning -thus showing his power, love, wisdom. etc.

That is why it was written that God does nothing unless he first declares it by his servants the prophets.

(The bible contains a perfectly accurate and rather detailed overview of world events written beforehand -but few -now -will, for whatever reason, study it to the depth necessary. After experiencing God and extremely miraculous things themselves, they will then be able to look back on the evidence of God declaring things from the beginning)

Some are called to believe now -and live by faith (faith is not mere belief) -and are given evidences they cannot reproduce for others -which causes the,not know that things will happen as written, but that which is written in the bible coming to pass on an extreme scale will be evidence for most.
Knowing God exists is not the most important thing -but having proof of WHO God is by prophecy and its fulfillment -and making good on all his promises -is important.

 

[Cockadoodledoo]

First, the Inuit people can read. They can even get on the Internet and read your post.

Greetings, the Inuit people......my distant cousins.

 

[Subduction Zone]

As that might relate to the bible and what is claimed therein, the bible is not meant to be believed by all now.

(Those in the bible who have believed in the God of the bible have done so after God did -or had done -extremely miraculous things initially. Evidences were the beginning of their faith.
Those who did not experience them can still prove that the basic ideas behind the commandments are the core of that which would cause the world to be a paradise of done by all -even if God did not exist, but those who have seen evidences -miraculous or prophetic -believe in his power to create the future much more easily who have not experienced them or studied prophecy diligently.)

For most... And according to the bible itself, the bible is to be evidence seen in hindsight -evidence that the very obvious God who has then worked much more directly with humans, made the earth a paradise, made some immortal, ended war and is preparing us to inherit all things -not just the earth -declared all things from the beginning. They will then not only know God exists, but was able to declare that all of this would come to pass from the beginning -thus showing his power, love, wisdom. etc.

That is why it was written that God does nothing unless he first declares it by his servants the prophets.

Some are called to believe now -and live by faith (faith is not mere belief) -and are given evidences they cannot reproduce for others -which causes the,not know that things will happen as written, but that which is written in the bible coming to pass on an extreme scale will be evidence for most.
Knowing God exists is not the most important thing -but having proof of WHO God is by prophecy and its fulfillment -and making good on all his promises -is important.

When you write "believe in hindsight" you merely mean reinterpret the Bible to match known events. By your standards Islam is correct since they are experts at doing this. If a believer honestly asked himself why his god plays hide and seek the odds are that he would not be a believer any longer.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Greetings, the Inuit people......my distant cousins.

And here I've been told that distance makes the heart grow fonder.

 

[Katzpur]

Experience is, for me, the highest authority. The touchstone of validity is my own experience. No other person's ideas, and none of my own ideas, are as authoritative as my experience. It is to experience that I must return again and again, to discover a closer approximation to truth as it is in the process of becoming in me. Neither the Bible nor the prophets -- neither Freud nor research -- neither the revelations of God nor man -- can take precedence over my own direct experience. My experience is not authoritative because it is infallible. It is the basis of authority because it can always be checked in new primary ways. In this way its frequent error or fallibility is always open to correction

Carl Rogers.

That's about the best quote I know to cut through the crap.

That is absolutely one of the best quotes I think I've ever heard. I am so glad you posted it and that I happened to read it.

 

[Shushersbedamned]

I'm eager to argue but I didn't understand the question. What is the debate all about? ...maybe I'm just dumb ...but you can't expect me to believe that.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

That is absolutely one of the best quotes I think I've ever heard. I am so glad you posted it and that I happened to read it.

I'm always glad when we cross paths, my friend.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I'm eager to argue but I didn't understand the question. What is the debate all about? ...maybe I'm just dumb ...but you can't expect me to believe that.

Best I can tell, it goes something like: There is no cross in the sky, therefore Eskimos don't understand Ezekiel (or something similar).

 

[Etritonakin]

When you write "believe in hindsight" you merely mean reinterpret the Bible to match known events. By your standards Islam is correct since they are experts at doing this. If a believer honestly asked himself why his god plays hide and seek the odds are that he would not be a believer any longer.

Yer not really gittin me.

I'm not talking about one or two things which may seem coincidental -such as Jerusalem being a burdensome stone to all -a cup of trembling -after Judah returned -their prophesied military success, being compassed by their neighbors followed by the rest of the world... As well as the rest that might seem coincidental unless studied in depth to show their accuracy.....

I am talking about some very "ok, that's new" type things such as a huge city coming down out of heaven, people being made immortal, the returning Christ and his entourage destroying the armies of the earth who attempt to fight him as the feet of his glorious body stand on either side of the cloven mount of olives, the end of war, nations who do not go up to keep the feast of tabernacles every year receiving no rain, the earth being re-surfaced making more and better materials available, the former works being burnt up -elements melting with a fervent heat (making the uninhabitable by fallout, etc., again inhabitable), every valley exalted and hill made low, etc., etc....

You know, the kind of things you are not likely to believe until they happen, but once they do you look at the old prophecies in a new light....

Believe it or don't, but that is the most important reason stated in the bible for God having scripture and prophecy recorded -so that we may know God's ability -that his purpose was always to do that which was in our best interest -and many other things -by having a record which could be referenced later showing it has always been so -even if we do not really understand or believe now.

 

[Katzpur]

I'm always glad when we cross paths, my friend.

As am I, Jay, but I really wasn't trying to be funny. So what did I say that amused you?

 

[David T]

That is absolutely one of the best quotes I think I've ever heard. I am so glad you posted it and that I happened to read it.

It's a quote I discovered about 25 years ago. It became a mantra for me and has been very important for me over time to live by. We get easily tangled up in others ideas and our own ideas. It forces one to stop, breath, reflect on what has happened, discover that mostly it was nonsense and reboot and walk. I usually stop look at a tree laugh because the tree isn't all wrapped up in nonsense like us "smart" folk can get. Being "smart" has its dark blind sides of confusion.

 

[Cockadoodledoo]

The problem is alternative beliefs stopping one belief.
For example consider the following beliefs....
1. A cross in the sky by God
2. A cross in the sky by some advanced alien race
How does one choose one over the other?
It’s a bit like popping into a betting office and placing a bet on a two horse race.
In the back of my mind there’s the possibility I’ll loose.
So I don’t go into betting offices.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

As am I, Jay, but I really wasn't trying to be funny.

Neither was I.

 

[Cockadoodledoo]

The problem is alternative beliefs stopping one belief.
For example consider the following beliefs....
1. A cross in the sky by God
2. A cross in the sky by some advanced alien race
How does one choose one over the other?
It’s a bit like popping into a betting office and placing a bet on a two horse race.
In the back of my mind there’s the possibility I’ll loose.
So I don’t go into betting offices.

However I’m sure God could work out a solution instead of the Cross in the sky that would leave us completely convinced of his existence (if he exists).

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

However I’m sure God could work out a solution instead of the Cross in the sky that would leave us completely convinced of his existence (if he exists).

And, therefore?

 

[Willamena]

The problem is alternative beliefs stopping one belief.
For example consider the following beliefs....
1. A cross in the sky by God
2. A cross in the sky by some advanced alien race
How does one choose one over the other?

Confirmation bias.

It’s a bit like popping into a betting office and placing a bet on a two horse race.
In the back of my mind there’s the possibility I’ll loose.
So I don’t go into betting offices.

Then you forego a piece of life.

 

[Cockadoodledoo]

And, therefore?

Therefore......
1. God doesn’t exist, or
2. God has his own reasons to not put the cross in the sky

 

[Dantedeven]

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Gij weet niet hetgeen mijn ogen verdragen hebben. Tevens, weet ik niet wat uwe ogen verdragen hebben.Maar nooit zal ik u oordelen betreffende uw ongeloof, of geloof. Noch zal ik proberen u te bekeren naar mijn geloof.

En debat met elkaar, hebben wij allen niks aan. Want gij weet niet hetgeen mijn ogen verdragen hebben. En ik weet niet hetgeen uw ogen verdragen hebben. maar hetgeen dat geschiedde jegens mij, heeft mijn geloofsovertuigen wel degelijk beïnvloedt.

Wij kunnen niet terug. Dus mochten wij getuigen jegens Gods en zeggen: "Neen, Het bestaan Gods. Dat ontkennen wij." Dan zijt wij gelovigen leugenaars en hypocrieten. Op dezelfde manier als dat gij mocht getuigen jegens mij en zegt: "Ja God is. Ik heb hem met mijn eigen ogen gezien." Dan gijt zij ook een leugenaar en hypocriet.

Maar zijn wij beiden klootzakken? Neen. Wij hebben klasse, en wij als mensen respecteren elkaar. Tenzij gij hoogmoed draagt, dan zullen wij ten strijde gaan. En zal ik u kapot maken, in een kaartspel. Met een biertje. De groeten.